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Dawnpiper
Guest
Well, since the Solstice is an astronomical event, it’s technically yours as well…
We just find it a convenient time to mark and celebrate the sacredness of the world.
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We just find it a convenient time to mark and celebrate the sacredness of the world.
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Dawnpiper
Guest
You know, I believe this is the first time I’ve seen my wife described a demonic spirit. Nice. I haven’t chosen to comment on the deliberately offensive tone of your posts until now, but now I will. You do realize, I hope, that you are showing off many of the least attractive behaviors that many pagans ascribe to all Christians by default?
If the purpose of apologetics is to be rude and offensive and score imaginary points off an “opponent”, then I guess you’re doing the right thing… but if it is seen as an opportunity to perhaps win a soul for Christ, then you should view our presence here as a blessing, since most pagans are much more likely to at least listen long enough to have a seed planted if you can show some basic understanding of what they believe and why they believe it. Being snotty and beating them over the head with scripture quotes ain’t gonna cut it; for a pagan who left Christianity with wounds (and there are MANY in that situation) it reinforces that they made the right decision, and for one who has never been Christian it provides no inducement to explore further.
I will have nothing further to say to you until you start acting like a grownup.
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Dawnpiper
Guest
Quite true… the charity infrastructure is one of the few unmitigated positives I see in modern Christianity as well (the other is the glorious music
) There has not been much of either in neopaganism up to this point, but as we reach critical mass things are starting to move… individual pagans are as likely to give to charity as any other individual Americans, but up until this decade there just haven’t been enough of us who are organized enough in large enough groups to begin more than purely localized charity work.The Officers of Avalon, a professional networking and support organization for pagans in the emergency services professions (police, firemen, and the like), has started up a program called “Avalon Cares” that has been doing good work in New Orleans; I expect we will see more such efforts in the future.
BTW, Edwin, your post was really a breath of fresh air on this forum - thank you.
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Paganus
Guest
Well, since the Solstice is an astronomical event, it’s technically yours as well…
QUOTE]
One of life’s joys, an annual free trip around the sun.
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Paganus
Guest
Are these rules that you consider binding only within your organization - or do you condemn members of other organizations who reject these limitations on their practices?
For example, if another religious organization espoused racial supremacy or human sacrifice, I am confident that Catholic bishops would feel comfortable in condemning this behavior. Would the members of your organization feel that they had the same moral authority to make such pronouncements?
In fact, if you don’t mind, I would like to ask: who has authority in your religion, where does it come from - and how can it be recognized?
Thanks in advance -
Merry Christmas to all and Peace to men of good will.
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Dawnpiper
Guest
Do you fast for Ramadan? Do you keep kosher? Follow the 613 mitzvot? These are rules that many Muslims and Jews consider binding.
To answer the first part of your question—an organization’s rules can only actually be effectively binding on its own members, with the ultimate penalty being the expulsion of the offender. There are millions of organizations out there, religious and non, whose rules I do not consider binding upon me because I am not affiliated with them.
Now on to the second. Do I feel that I have the moral authority to condemn supremacists and human sacrifice, along with many other things I find morally offensive? Certainly, and I have done and continue to do so. I oppose them not just because my organization says that ít’s bad, but because I believe it to be morally better not to do these things. In other words, I would oppose them even if some sudden and inexplicable lunacy took over all the elected officials of ADF and they started supporting these things. And yes, even if they said that they had a divine revelation that this was a good thing. At that point, I would dissociate from the group and say they were wrong.
As for our organization, as in most organizations, the authority resides in our elected officials as far as determining what is official ADF practice–what I may or may not do in a ritual that I present publicly as an ADF one and what constitutes membership in the organization. It is not the free-for-all, anything goes some people may assume
. Theologically and in private personal practice, while I may seek advice and learn from those who have been doing this longer than I have, ultimately that is between me and my gods. Remember that we are about orthopraxy, not orthodoxy.Actually, most Neopagan groups of which I am aware have more in common structurally with Protestantism than with Catholicism. Not surprising given the areas and societies out of which it grew. It is much more like the Protestant idea of the priesthood of all believers than the hierarchical structure of the Catholic or Anglican churches. No one in any of the groups I know can speak in a Neopagan equivalent of ex cathedra, for example. Well, I suppose they could try but the most likely end result from the folks I know would be “oh, really, dear? How lovely for you. Would you like a cup of tea and a nice lie-down?”
There may be Neopagan folks out there who recognize the right of some specific person to dictate theology and dogma for their entire group, but I haven’t met any of them.
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dessert
Guest
Please do not I repeat do not connect me to your event!Well, since the Solstice is an astronomical event, it’s technically yours as well…
We just find it a convenient time to mark and celebrate the sacredness of the world.
Our event this time of year is the celebration of the birth of our Lord Jesus the Christ.
Later in the year we celebrate His ressurection.
I will not allow you to tell me I cannot quote scripture, this is afterall a catholic forum.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” John 3; 16 NAB
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3; 17 NAB
Whoever believes in Him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3; 18
"And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light,because their works were evil. John 3; 19
"For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might be exposed. John 3; 20
"But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God. John 3; 21
all scripture from NAB
The one who comes from above is above all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard but no one accepts his testimony. Whoever does accept his testimony cerifies that God is trustworthy. For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift of the spirit. The Father loves the Son and has given eveything over to him. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life , but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
John 3; 31-36 NAB
The sacredness is not in this world but in the sacredness of my Lord and savior Jesus the Christ.
The Holy Spirit works on the soul to win them to Christ not me!
“o Word Of God , you loweres yourself to ransoom us, to fill us with wisdom, and to give us life eternal. ALL PRAISE, THANKS, GLORY AND HONOR BE TO YOU, OUR PERFECT GOD.” word among us public.
I will not join with you on the eve of you r solistice but give glory to my one and only God. return from the desert
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dessert
Guest
You know about seed planting so you have the knowledge and yet you turn away why? because you were hurt? Did you receive 39 lashes with a heavy spike filled ball and thorns on your head?
Did you have 5 inch nails ponded into your hands and feet?
Were you spat at and declothed and humiliated and you had not done anything wrong but go about and heal and forgive ?
Where is your forgiveness and this peace you are claiming ? You have it masked very well a nd you have your anger masked by a bitter spirit. Please don’t feel you have to reply to this as you are under no obligation to even stay on this thread, you have my blessings to leave anytime if that is what you are threatening to not talk to me again.
Have a nice day! here is your hat and coat. return
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dessert
Guest
Calling all POTESTANTS !!!Do you fast for Ramadan? Do you keep kosher? Follow the 613 mitzvot? These are rules that many Muslims and Jews consider binding.
To answer the first part of your question—an organization’s rules can only actually be effectively binding on its own members, with the ultimate penalty being the expulsion of the offender. There are millions of organizations out there, religious and non, whose rules I do not consider binding upon me because I am not affiliated with them.
Now on to the second. Do I feel that I have the moral authority to condemn supremacists and human sacrifice, along with many other things I find morally offensive? Certainly, and I have done and continue to do so. I oppose them not just because my organization says that ít’s bad, but because I believe it to be morally better not to do these things. In other words, I would oppose them even if some sudden and inexplicable lunacy took over all the elected officials of ADF and they started supporting these things. And yes, even if they said that they had a divine revelation that this was a good thing. At that point, I would dissociate from the group and say they were wrong.
As for our organization, as in most organizations, the authority resides in our elected officials as far as determining what is official ADF practice–what I may or may not do in a ritual that I present publicly as an ADF one and what constitutes membership in the organization. It is not the free-for-all, anything goes some people may assume
Actually, most Neopagan groups of which I am aware have more in common structurally with Protestantism than with Catholicism. Not surprising given the areas and societies out of which it grew. It is much more like the Protestant idea of the priesthood of all believers than the hierarchical structure of the Catholic or Anglican churches. No one in any of the groups I know can speak in a Neopagan equivalent of ex cathedra, for example. Well, I suppose they could try but the most likely end result from the folks I know would be “oh, really, dear? How lovely for you. Would you like a cup of tea and a nice lie-down?”
There may be Neopagan folks out there who recognize the right of some specific person to dictate theology and dogma for their entire group, but I haven’t met any of them.
return
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KarenNC
Guest
Sorry, need to clarify that that was my post, not my husband’s. I forgot to check into whose name was logged in at the time. The perils of using one computer
.
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KarenNC
Guest
Yes, but evidently he objected more strongly to Elisha being called “Baldy” by a group of children. Cain was exiled and it was forbidden that anyone should kill him.
At Elisha’s request, God sent two bears to maul 42 of the children.(2 Kings 2: 23-24)–different translations differ on whether the children were youths (NIV) or little children (KJV).
As an aside, I find it interesting that Cain’s words seem to indicate that he views God as only acting locally (Gen 4:14). Nothing in the previous verses that God says indicate that he is to be driven from God’s presence, only from the land (Gen 4:10-12). Cain, correctly, based on later verses, believes that leaving the land also means leaving the presence of God (Gen 4:16). Thanks, that is something I had not noticed before in my studies of this passage.
But none of these things is really relevant to the assertion that I understood you to make and to which I replied–that the Ten Commandments as given to Moses were the only possible source or codification of ethical or moral behavior. Since other codes of ethical and moral behavior are known to have preceded the appearance of the Ten Commandments by several centuries and to have existed in civilizations that were not connected with that of ancient Israel, that claim is a bit spurious.
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IanCorrigan
Guest
**Why not go with an established heathen or pagan system that has more ancient connection? **
Really, I think this is an aesthetic and personal decision. Some westerners who are called to these impulses do go to the east, either in fact or in choice of path. Others find the in the tales of the western Gods and Spirits the call to spirit that inspires us.
Rest assured, those of us called to the Gaelic pantheon, for instance, sigh over the difficulties of understanding that we face. Nevertheless, we press on. Time will bring us information and/or inspiration. After all, the Gods don’t just live as tales, they live in the experiences of modern worshippers. They are entirely capable of directing us into the things that will make our growing path stronger and wiser.
Ian
Really, I think this is an aesthetic and personal decision. Some westerners who are called to these impulses do go to the east, either in fact or in choice of path. Others find the in the tales of the western Gods and Spirits the call to spirit that inspires us.
Rest assured, those of us called to the Gaelic pantheon, for instance, sigh over the difficulties of understanding that we face. Nevertheless, we press on. Time will bring us information and/or inspiration. After all, the Gods don’t just live as tales, they live in the experiences of modern worshippers. They are entirely capable of directing us into the things that will make our growing path stronger and wiser.
Ian
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Diddi
Guest
This statement struck me as funny. My grandfather was Jewish and Christian. When a Jewish man recognizes that Jesus is the promised Messiah and becomes Christian, he is both Jewish and Christian. His children, on the other hand, are Christian but not Jewish. My grandfather had twelve children and 28 grandchildren – including me. I have five children, all of whom are descended from a Jewish great-grandfather. They are all practicing Catholics who take their faith seriously. They are not Jewish.
My point – The implied argument [1. (most) Jews don’t believe Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, 2. If something is not seen by (most) Jews as the fulfillment of Judaism, it isn’t, 3. therefore Christianity is not the fulfillment of Judaism] is a classic example of “Begging The Question”. Anybody take a logic course around here? I prefer the same argument in reverse, i.e., Ask the descendents of Jews who recognized their messiah to point him out. We’ll point you to Jesus!!!
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MarkInOregon
Guest
I believe the only people the Church passes judgement on is the Saints who are in heaven. The Church is silent on the fate of other individuals. It is not for us to judge them–but Christ.
We can and should tell them the Gospel. We should tell them about the death and resurection of Christ and what this did/does for us. Our lives should be examples of living this faith and the peace that can bring–even in the midst of suffering. And we should be willing to stand up for our faith even when we are mocked or martyred. That is what will attract people to Christ–our living out the truth of the Gospel.
Telling someone they are wrong and going to hell as if it is a statement of fact–is rude and probably detrimental to their salvation–as all you are doing is driving a wedge between them and the truth–and only Christ knows their ultimate fate.
We need to be able to dialog with people–telling them why we believe what we believe–demonstrating the truth of our beliefs–and this can be done without damning people.
I fail to see how having a reasoned discussion with someone is being untrue to the faith. I think that is what plants and waters the seeds–giving non-believers the best chance of becoming believers. You cannot beat someone into faith.
The peace of Christ,
Mark in Oregon
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KarenNC
Guest
Are you unaware that there is a difference between ethnicity and religion? Admittedly I did not say “Jews who practice Judaism whether of ethnic Jewish descent or through conversion” because I made an assumption that it would be obvious to those in this conversation.This is admittedly a difficult side effect that began when religious identity became more of an individual choice rather than a default because of the group into which one was born. My apologies, I will strive to more clearly communicate in the future.This statement struck me as funny. My grandfather was Jewish and Christian. When a Jewish man recognizes that Jesus is the promised Messiah and becomes Christian, he is both Jewish and Christian. His children, on the other hand, are Christian but not Jewish. My grandfather had twelve children and 28 grandchildren – including me. I have five children, all of whom are descended from a Jewish great-grandfather. They are all practicing Catholics who take their faith seriously. They are not Jewish.
My point – The implied argument [1. (most) Jews don’t believe Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, 2. If something is not seen by (most) Jews as the fulfillment of Judaism, it isn’t, 3. therefore Christianity is not the fulfillment of Judaism] is a classic example of “Begging The Question”. Anybody take a logic course around here? I prefer the same argument in reverse, i.e., Ask the descendents of Jews who recognized their messiah to point him out. We’ll point you to Jesus!!!
When your grandfather converted to Christianity he became an ethnically Jewish man who was a practicing Christian. This is a very different thing than someone who is ethnically Jewish and practices Judaism (otherwise there would not be so many Christian groups trying to convert them). Jews have also converted to Buddhism, Neopaganism, Islam, etc over the years, and members of these groups (as well as Christians) have converted to Judaism. There are also ethnically Jewish people who are humanist, atheist or agnostic.
Given your argument, I am surprised you have not long since converted to Islam. It came later, is seen by millions of Muslims as the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecies of Jesus and the will of the one God worshipped by Jews and Christians, honors the same prophets (with an important addition). It says so in the Koran, so it is true. Obviously it is irrelevant that most Christians (whether raised as such or by conversion regardless of ethnicity) or Jews (who practice Judaism whether of ethnic Jewish descent or through conversion) do not agree that Islam is the ultimate fulfillment of God’s will or that they interpret the stories in a different fashion. The Muslims think it is so, therefore it must be so and Christians simply need to recognize it.
My point stands. Jews who practice Judaism do not see Christianity as the fulfillment of Judaism, regardless of whether Christians do or not. There have been many who claimed to be (and were acclaimed as) Messiahs in Jewish history.
Frankly, I think it is more useful to actually talk directly to Jews who currently practice Judaism about what they believe on the subject. I will point you to www.jewsforjudaism.com if you would like to explore the question further. conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jesus.html is also very instructive. Dr. Amy Jill Levine, a Conservative Jew who is a professor of New Testament at Vanderbilt University Divinity School, has a very interesting lecture on the topic that can be seen as a free streaming download at uctv.tv/series/index.asp?longtime=longtime&sort=title&summary=&number=10.
At the root of this argument is the fact that one group (in this case Christians) doesn’t get to decide for another group (in this case Jews who practice Judaism whether of ethnic Jewish descent or through conversion) what that group (Jews who practice Judaism whether of ethnic Jewish descent or through conversion) believes. They (Jews who practice Judaism whether of ethnic Jewish descent or through conversion) get to decide that for themselves.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
Do you not see the irony here? Many consider our beliefs foolish and superstitious–while we believe them to be the truth.
Would someone correct me if I am wrong–but as Christians–specifically Catholic Christians–are we not called to preach the good news to all nations–to go out and make disciples?
How does calling someone elses beliefs nonsense–help achieve that end? Is the person receiving your ridicule going to listen to anything you say after that? Are they going to think much of Christians? Jesus came to call sinners (thats you and me also) not to ridicule them. Wouldn’t it be more effective to point out flaws in the pagan arguement and to offer proofs for what we believe? Does that stand the greatest chance of gaining disciples for Christ? Is our goal to gain souls for Christ or to make ourselves feel good by telling others how wrong they are?
It is possible that I have misunderstood what Christ expects of his disciples and if a am I apologize.
Peace of Christ,
Mark in Oregon
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Dawnpiper
Guest
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Dawnpiper
Guest
Mark,
Thanks for this - the amount of spite and invective I have seen on these boards is rather astonishing, both in this thread and in many of the others I have glanced at; more reminiscent of some of the more rabid Protestants that inhabit my corner of the world than of the many reasonable Catholics I have spoken with over the years.
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IanCorrigan
Guest
SOOOOOooooooo then you are claiming to be your own
gggggoooooooddd?
There are many Gods. No being is in charge of everything, or knows everything, or does everything. All actions are the actions of specific beings, including the various Gods, Ancestors, landspirits, etc. All material things have a spiritual nature. All spiritual nature partakes of - is - the divine. So, everything partakes of ‘God’, if by ‘God’ you mean ‘the divine’. Since I am a being, I have the divine in me. Since I have a number of cool higher brain functions - memory, time-binding - and thumbs, I can do a lot about the fact that I express the divine.
I claim to have my own God in/as me. I don’t claim that that particular God runs the universe. I honor many Gods and Spirits that are more powerful than me in most ways
**Any rules? Who made the rules? Do not kill! **
My personal opinion is that human morality arises out of the human capacity for empathy. We know what pain is, we know what loss is, and we feel a reflection of the pain and loss of others, so we know they are unpleasant. This leads us to make rules against inflicting pain and loss on others. Human moral codes were/are invented by humans, perhaps with the help/advice of the gods, but they’re basically a human business.
All societies (certainly including Biblical and Christian ones) make rules about when killing is permitted - cultures just quibble over the details.
Ian
gggggoooooooddd?
There are many Gods. No being is in charge of everything, or knows everything, or does everything. All actions are the actions of specific beings, including the various Gods, Ancestors, landspirits, etc. All material things have a spiritual nature. All spiritual nature partakes of - is - the divine. So, everything partakes of ‘God’, if by ‘God’ you mean ‘the divine’. Since I am a being, I have the divine in me. Since I have a number of cool higher brain functions - memory, time-binding - and thumbs, I can do a lot about the fact that I express the divine.
I claim to have my own God in/as me. I don’t claim that that particular God runs the universe. I honor many Gods and Spirits that are more powerful than me in most ways
**Any rules? Who made the rules? Do not kill! **
My personal opinion is that human morality arises out of the human capacity for empathy. We know what pain is, we know what loss is, and we feel a reflection of the pain and loss of others, so we know they are unpleasant. This leads us to make rules against inflicting pain and loss on others. Human moral codes were/are invented by humans, perhaps with the help/advice of the gods, but they’re basically a human business.
All societies (certainly including Biblical and Christian ones) make rules about when killing is permitted - cultures just quibble over the details.
Ian
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IanCorrigan
Guest
Are these rules that you consider binding only within your organization - or do you condemn members of other organizations who reject these limitations on their practices?
On matters such as animal sacrifice, we don’t condemn the practice - there is no reason to - we simply don’t allow it. Human sacrifice is illegal in all places these days, and we would view that practice as crime, as well.
For example, if another religious organization espoused racial supremacy or human sacrifice, I am confident that Catholic bishops would feel comfortable in condemning this behavior. Would the members of your organization feel that they had the same moral authority to make such pronouncements?
Every human has the moral authority to condemn whatever we may choose. Having the social authority to make one’s condemnation matter is another matter. Moral authority arises from our inate divine center, where our conscience lives. Many Pagans make moral denunciation of corporate greed, environmental destruction, human rights violations, etc, an important part of their Pagan ethos.
**In fact, if you don’t mind, I would like to ask: who has authority in your religion, where does it come from - and how can it be recognized? **
Authority comes from the inate divine in each of us. From there, social authority arises by personal skill and success. If a person can become recognised by others (in institutions such as the academy, in formal Neopagan organiozations and training systems, or in more ad hoc ways) then they may gain some social authority. But, as has been said, there is no mechanism by which Pagans can know what they are ‘supposed to’ believe. They/we must all figure it out for ourselves.
Ian
On matters such as animal sacrifice, we don’t condemn the practice - there is no reason to - we simply don’t allow it. Human sacrifice is illegal in all places these days, and we would view that practice as crime, as well.
For example, if another religious organization espoused racial supremacy or human sacrifice, I am confident that Catholic bishops would feel comfortable in condemning this behavior. Would the members of your organization feel that they had the same moral authority to make such pronouncements?
Every human has the moral authority to condemn whatever we may choose. Having the social authority to make one’s condemnation matter is another matter. Moral authority arises from our inate divine center, where our conscience lives. Many Pagans make moral denunciation of corporate greed, environmental destruction, human rights violations, etc, an important part of their Pagan ethos.
**In fact, if you don’t mind, I would like to ask: who has authority in your religion, where does it come from - and how can it be recognized? **
Authority comes from the inate divine in each of us. From there, social authority arises by personal skill and success. If a person can become recognised by others (in institutions such as the academy, in formal Neopagan organiozations and training systems, or in more ad hoc ways) then they may gain some social authority. But, as has been said, there is no mechanism by which Pagans can know what they are ‘supposed to’ believe. They/we must all figure it out for ourselves.
Ian
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