Neo-Pagan Apologetics

[Diddi]

Given your argument, I am surprised you have not long since converted to Islam.

Actually, you obviously don’t understand my argument at all. I am merely pointing out that your argument is a case of “begging the question”.

The moment that a practicing Jew recognizes that Jesus is the promised Messiah, he will want to become Christian and he will no longer be considered (by you) to be a practicing Jew.

Do you even know what “begging the question” means? An argument which begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way. Such an argument is valid in the sense in which logicians use that term, yet provides no reason at all to believe its conclusion.

Since the argument you made contains a premise that assumes its conclusion, it is worthless. What your argument is saying is that, if you ask people who don’t believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah whether or not he is the promised Messiah, they will tell you that Jesus is not the promised Messiah. So what? I’m saying that this argument tells us nothing we didn’t know before. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning!

 

[KarenNC]

Actually, you obviously don’t understand my argument at all… Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning!

First, I will apologize for taking a needlessly snarky tone in my initial response to you. We have been peripherally involved with the Reform Jewish community for a number of years and the recurrent issue of Christians telling Jews how to interpret the Jews’ own sacred texts while being horrified that Islam does the same to Christian texts is a hot button for me.

Now…

Let’s reconstruct the relevant bits of the conversation up to this point.

1. Karen (to Paganus) - “Since you consider Christianity to be an extension and fulfillment of Judaism (though Jews would disagree with you)”
2. Diddi (to Karen) - “My point – The implied argument [1. (most) Jews don’t believe Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, 2. If something is not seen by (most) Jews as the fulfillment of Judaism, it isn’t, 3. therefore Christianity is not the fulfillment of Judaism] is a classic example of “Begging The Question”. Anybody take a logic course around here? I prefer the same argument in reverse, i.e., Ask the descendents of Jews who recognized their messiah to point him out. We’ll point you to Jesus”

Skipping over the fact that my parenthetical note was an aside, not a central part of my argument, in what way is your suggestion that I ask the descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity (who are themselves practicing Christians) who the Jewish Messiah is, not an example of circular reasoning? You yourself say it’s the same argument.

And if (as it seems to me) you are claiming that your argument is correct just because it is, that’s called “special pleading” and also fails the logic test.

 

[Belcanto]

Actually, most Neopagan groups of which I am aware have more in common structurally with Protestantism than with Catholicism. Not surprising given the areas and societies out of which it grew. It is much more like the Protestant idea of the priesthood of all believers than the hierarchical structure of the Catholic or Anglican churches. No one in any of the groups I know can speak in a Neopagan equivalent of ex cathedra, for example. Well, I suppose they could try but the most likely end result from the folks I know would be “oh, really, dear? How lovely for you. Would you like a cup of tea and a nice lie-down?”

There may be Neopagan folks out there who recognize the right of some specific person to dictate theology and dogma for their entire group, but I haven’t met any of them.

I have a question. Some Protestants liken the Catholic practice of praying to the saints and Mary (for their intercession) as equivalent to Paganism. From a pagan perspective, is there any truth to this? Does the Catholic and Orthodox practice of praying to the saints and Mary, as well as utilizing and venerating images in worship, resemble Pagan practices?

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[Diddi]

First, I will apologize for taking a needlessly snarky tone in my initial response to you.

Thank you. Accepted and appreciated. Nice touch. You were probably reacting to others on this thread and not me. Personally, I think this thread is too broad and people are frustrated. If I were a moderator, I would lock the thread and ask people to start maybe twenty or more smaller threads where it would be easier to keep to one topic.

We have been peripherally involved with the Reform Jewish community for a number of years and the recurrent issue of Christians telling Jews how to interpret the Jews’ own sacred texts while being horrified that Islam does the same to Christian texts is a hot button for me.

Sounds like you are still searching. Actually, I have come up with my own idea on this matter which I call the “Laws of the First Premise.” In the above quote, you refer to three groups of people: practicing Jews who do not believe that Jesus is their Messiah, Christians who do, and Muslims who think that both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible are corrupted and only the Koran is uncorrupted and uncorruptable. Obviously, only one of these three groups, at most, can be right. If the Jews are correct, then what the Christians are trying to do IS wrong. If the Christians are right, then what they are doing is NOT wrong and what the Muslims are saying about Christian texts IS. If the Muslims are right, then what they are doing is NOT wrong. Notice who is wrong and who is not wrong depends on who is wrong and who is not wrong. All arguments based on faith (yours, mine, atheists’, Muslims’, etc.) beg the question (unless they are equivocations, which is worse) because that is what faith is all about. If Jesus is the promised Messiah, then Christians should be interpreting Jewish scripture and Muslims shouldn’t be giving false interpretations to Chistian texts. I personally don’t think Muhommad was a prophet of God, but if he was, then Muslims are correct in interpreting Christian scripture. I don’t fault them for arguing where their faith leads them. I merely think they are wrong. If I thought they were right, I would be one of them.

Skipping over the fact that my parenthetical note was an aside, not a central part of my argument,.

I recognized it as an aside from the beginning but I recognized it as a loose brick that needed to be tuck pointed. As I said above, this thread is way too broad to tackle all at once. It’s much easier to join in a civil conversation when the topic is narrow. When you and I see eye to eye on this little one, then we might try another topic – another little one.

in what way is your suggestion that I ask the descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity (who are themselves practicing Christians) who the Jewish Messiah is, not an example of circular reasoning? You yourself say it’s the same argument…

Exactly! That was the point I was trying to make. My suggested opposite argument is also begging the question. All arguments based on faith beg the question (except some that equivocate which is worse). That is what it means to have faith. According to the Laws of the First Premise, all faiths do this, yours, mine, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, secular humanists, Muslims, you name it. We all see each other’s arguments through the lens of our own faiths and that’s why we seem like nuts to each other. If Jesus is God, paganists are wrong and their arguments are nutty. If paganism is right, then Christians are wrong and their arguments are nutty. If Hindus are right, they your arguments and mine are both nutty.

According to the Laws of the First Premise, once one accepts the notion that there are many Gods “on faith”, one might, by circular reasoning, begin to see evidence of multiple Gods everywhere. It might even seem obvious to the paganist believer – but they will probably come off as a fruit cake to someone who believes there is only one God. Hence the hostility of some on this board.

And if (as it seems to me) you are claiming that your argument is correct just because it is, that’s called “special pleading” and also fails the logic test.

All faiths do this. If Christianity is right, then we will know the truth when we die. If atheism is correct, then we will never know. This leads me to my next question once we see eye to eye on this begging the question thingy. (When, and only after, we finish this topic, I would like to know whether you, Karen, believe you have an immortal soul. Don’t answer until we are done with begging the question.)

I think we can safely say that you believe there are more than one God and see evidence for this. I believe there is only one God, that Jesus is God, and I see evidence for my faith.

Finally, take your time answering. I won’t be posting on this board again till sometime after Christmas.

 

[dessert]

SOOOOOooooooo then you are claiming to be your own
gggggoooooooddd?

There are many Gods. No being is in charge of everything, or knows everything, or does everything. All actions are the actions of specific beings, including the various Gods, Ancestors, landspirits, etc. All material things have a spiritual nature. All spiritual nature partakes of - is - the divine. So, everything partakes of ‘God’, if by ‘God’ you mean ‘the divine’. Since I am a being, I have the divine in me. Since I have a number of cool higher brain functions - memory, time-binding - and thumbs, I can do a lot about the fact that I express the divine.

I claim to have my own God in/as me. I don’t claim that that particular God runs the universe. I honor many Gods and Spirits that are more powerful than me in most ways

**Any rules? Who made the rules? Do not kill! **

My personal opinion is that human morality arises out of the human capacity for empathy. We know what pain is, we know what loss is, and we feel a reflection of the pain and loss of others, so we know they are unpleasant. This leads us to make rules against inflicting pain and loss on others. Human moral codes were/are invented by humans, perhaps with the help/advice of the gods, but they’re basically a human business.

All societies (certainly including Biblical and Christian ones) make rules about when killing is permitted - cultures just quibble over the details.

Ian

Ian, i guess I can agree to disagree. Agreed? OK
The point of Adam andd Eve and Cain killing Abel was just to say that it happened 10,000 plus or give a day or two ago and my God was certainly not in approval so this establishes a time frame for me.

Also God did banish him and at the time there was much punishment from God for sin, but also God was forgiving in the sense that He did not kill him as God had to banish Adam and Eve because God cnnot have sin in His prescence and therefore I always go to the fact of the sanctifying grace we receive through the Christ. I know I am repeating myself alot.

All of my scriture was quoted for to establish that we don’t have to bring anything to God but Praise and Thanksgiving as He has done it all so no aplles and oranges so to speak no earthly items are neccessary as He has givin us His Son. Sorry to not talk in the understanding terms, but my opinion is reallly based on the bible and, but actually my catholic faith is rested on Jesus and the church and the bible is a good sorce of moral behavior. So we can find something we agree on thanks? But I will try some other approaches as much as possible. Would you mind if I say a prayer for you and your group as I should ask as my father /priest says it is a good idea as you are the invited guest because our forum is open to all and I don’t want to be impolite.

Maybe I can tell you about a more powerful spirit that can destroy your soul.

return

 

[dessert]

I would like to say a prayer for this season.for CAF and all
Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins and may we have the mercy and grace at this time of year to praise and worship the celebration of your birth and remember the reasons you came here . I thank you for your love and forgiveness , the sacrificies you have made aand for all the saints and clergy and ask you bless all and be with all now and especially our Holy Father inthis next year as I think it is already Christmas over there In the name of the Holy Trinity Amen
return

 

[KarenNC]

Sounds like you are still searching.

The involvement with the Reform Jewish community actually did begin with searching for a brief period many years ago but has continued through music. My husband has been singing with the choir at the local Reform temple for over a decade now. As he pointed out, unfortunately the Neopagan community is not where Judaism or Christianity are in terms of a body of beautiful music. He loves the music and enjoys the challenges of singing for a very good cantor. I have found the services I have attended very beautiful and actually like a lot of the theology and actions that I see stemming from it. If it weren’t for the whole monotheistic issue…

We have met a lot of great folks through this involvement and continue to read a lot about what is going on the Jewish community, mostly Reform but some others as well. We both enjoy comparative theology, and have done a good bit of study in a variety of religions, though I will freely admit my husband is more versed in this than I.

**According to the Laws of the First Premise, once one accepts the notion that there are many Gods “on faith”, one might, by circular reasoning, begin to see evidence of multiple Gods everywhere. It might even seem obvious to the paganist believer – but they will probably come off as a fruit cake to someone who believes there is only one God. **

From this perspective I think the actual first premise in such an argument is that one is open to the idea that there is something in the universe that is beyond humanity. In this area we all come off as fruitcakes to the atheist and we wonder how the atheist can not see the evidence that we do. Once that premise is accepted, it becomes for me a matter of which path most closely matches my experiences of this “something.”

I will certainly agree that we all interpret the world through the lens of our own experiences. Those experiences are also shaped by our culture, background, etc. Usually we will see what we are conditioned to see. I think a large part of it has to do with what we allow ourselves to be open to experiencing.

For me it has been much like when I was pregnant. Before that, I never paid attention to or really noticed/registered pregnant women, women with small babies, etc. Obviously I saw they were there (didn’t walk over top of them ) but they didn’t really register in my view of the makeup of my experience. If asked point blank, I might have said, yes, I think I saw a pregnant woman/woman with baby at the mall today. Once I became pregnant (actually once we decided to start trying), suddenly pregnant women were everywhere! It seemed like every second woman I saw was pregnant or had a baby. There were “suddenly” innumerable stories in the paper or movies that included them. Seven years later, it isn’t as overwhelming a number as it seemed initially, but I remain more aware of the variety of people in my environment. That initial shift in perspective brought to my attention that my perception was skewed and I began to notice a wider variety of folks.

Did the objective number of pregnant women or women who had babies change? I really doubt we had a huge fertility boom at that exact instant. Did my perception change the world and actually suddenly create these women and their children where they had not been before? No. It was rather that my attention had become attuned to that (name removed by moderator)ut, so it actually registered with me. My perception of the world as a place in which there were a few occasional pregnant women was altered to more closely match the reality of how many there actually were.

You are right. Once I became open to the possibility that there could be multiple forces at work in the universe, I did begin to see evidence of it, usually in ways I had not registered before. Polytheism most closely matches the way in which I experience reality, without having to make the contortionist arguments I was having to make to explain that experience to myself in terms of monotheism (specifically in terms of Christian monotheism).

I had spent decades trying to fit my experiences of reality into the Christian monotheistic mold, moving through multiple forms of Christianity (though admittedly not formally Catholic–I have spent a great deal of time talking over such issues with friends who are Catholic, both born and converts, and reading some material from Catholic writers). It–orthodox (small “o”) Christianity–never adequately explained my experiences.

I think we can safely say that you believe there are more than one God and see evidence for this. I believe there is only one God, that Jesus is God, and I see evidence for my faith.

Yes, I think we can safely say that.

 

[KarenNC]

I have a question. Some Protestants liken the Catholic practice of praying to the saints and Mary (for their intercession) as equivalent to Paganism. From a pagan perspective, is there any truth to this? Does the Catholic and Orthodox practice of praying to the saints and Mary, as well as utilizing and venerating images in worship, resemble Pagan practices?

From my perspective, yes and no .

First the “no.” I see the prayers to Mary and the saints as similar in form, but not necessarily in intent. I suppose there might be rare times when a Neopagan would pray to a specific god or spirit to ask for intercession with another god, but that is not my usual practice nor that of anyone I know. My understanding of the Catholic and Orthodox practice is that such prayers are always intercessory in nature–that none of the above have power in their own right, only “God’s ear” if you will.

Now the “yes.” The role of utilizing and venerating images or objects is the same. I am no more praying “to” a statue of Athena in the expectation that that physical statue will do anything than you are when you pray “to” a statue of Mary or a crucifix. It is a focus of intention. We are fully capable of understanding the difference between symbol and referrent.

The ancients were as well. Robert Louis Wilken, in his book Christians as the Romans Saw Them, gives a quote from Celsus (a Greek philosopher writing around 170 C.E., living in the time of Marcus Aurelius–Aurelius’ Meditations are also a great read btw) that illustrates this. In response to Christian accusations that that images of stone, wood, bronze, etc could not be gods, Celsus replies that such “wisdom is ludicrous. Who but an utter infant imagines that these things are gods and not votive offerings and images of Gods.”(p. 119).

Admittedly, some of the practices of Catholics look a lot to an outsider like Goddess worship, particularly the ways in which the statues of Mary are treated in some parts of the world, for instance. However to actually understand the intent of those actions, one would have to talk to folks within those cultures, which I haven’t done.

This points up the difficulties inherent in trying to understand a culture/religion from the outside. That is one of the reasons I recommend Wilken’s book to Christians and to Neopagans, especially to those following a Celtic path. Much of what we know about the ancient Celts comes from Roman writings. By comparing the difference in the ways in which the Romans interpreted the actions of Christians (who were part of their own society) with the writings of contemporary early Christians, we can get an idea of how much they may have misinterpreted the actions of the Celts, a group not only not in their society on a large scale, but with whom they were usually at war.

Context is everything.

 

[ricko]

Bluntly speaking. The pagan gods do not exist. There is no proof of their existence. If there are so many pagan gods wandering around the universe then how is it that one measly God overwhelmed all of them? At one time, almost everyone was pagan but now almost everyone is Christian, over 1 billion Catholics alone. Your gods don’t seem able in their vast numbers to stand up to one God whom I believe you don’t even acknowledge as existing.

If I understand you correctly, the pagans worship gods of wind, fire, earth, nature and things like that. If that is correct, then you should be worshipping the god of electricity. He powers all of our lights and motors. Of course he can only go where we tell him to go by stringing wires. How about magnetism? Is that a god? Probably not as we keep him locked up in our motors and make him work with the god of electricity. These are forces of nature as well as wind, fire, etc. So do you consider magnetism and electricity to be gods?

I’m sorry if that offends you but can you not see that these things are simply forces of nature. They cannot speak, think or act on their own. They are explained by mathematics and physics. There is no evidence that any of your gods exist. If you truly believe they do, then provide that proof . For instance, I can prove that Mary exists and appeared at Fatima. The proof is in the eyewitness accounts of 80,000 people.

It’s okay to enjoy a gentle breeze, a rain shower and some snow but I never considered that a natural event was deserving of worship and never will. My intellect tells me that trees, fire, wind and any other object that cannot speak, think or act are not alive as that object or in the form of a spirit. I enjoy the beauty of nature as a creation of the one God but I don’t worship the things he created.

Remember that all the time you are spending chasing these false gods around you are neglecting to honor and acknowledge the one true God. It’s fun to read about magic and witches and things like that but they are fairy tales and hopefully you will acquire the wisdom one day to accept them as such. I hope you do because your immortal soul is at stake here.

 

[rlg94086]

For research purposes, here is the ADF site: adf.org/core/

Ian Corrigan’s biography is here: adf.org/about/bios/ian-corrigan/

It may be the largest neo-pagan group in the US, but it looks like a fringe group to me. Starting your own religion isn’t new. And, saying you are the “fastest growing” religion doesn’t mean much. If you have 10 people in your “Grove”, and it increases to 15, you have increased 50%! Wow! That’s a lot faster than our local parish’s growth.

 

[IanCorrigan]

**Bluntly speaking. The pagan gods do not exist. There is no proof of their existence. **

An assertion without basis - those Gods were the Gods of millions of people for thousands of years - just because their worship was overcome (for a while) by an oppressive dogma machine, does not mean they don’t exist.

No God is omnipotent - not mine, not yours. Rest assured, your God cannot stop me from blaspheming, from choosing not to worship him, from setting up my images of the Old Gods, or from working to undermine monotheism in our society. Paganism and polytheism is growing fast in the West, and the Christian God can no more stop it than the Old Gods could stop the new wave of Christianity.

I think, personally, that religions grow old and tired. the ideas, forms and images that once exited come to be hum-drum. The once innovative notions become establishment. I think this happened in Hellenic Paganism in the early christian days, and I think it has happened to Christianity now. When such things happen, new religions arise to fill the gap. This is normal and good - it keeps spiritual life fresh and powerful for humans. All things change, including rituals and belief, and the very forms and persons of the divine themselves.

**At one time, almost everyone was pagan but now almost everyone is Christian, over 1 billion Catholics alone. **

There are still a billion or so traditional polytheists on the planet - one must include Hinduism, Buddhism, African tribal ways, native american and asian tribal ways along with neopaganism. The only reason Christianity overcame Paganism so completely in the west was the lucky stroke of winning the conversion of the roman empire. If Rome hadn’t enforced Christianity by fire and the sword, there would be temples to Zeus today. The triumph of monotheism was based on violence and suppression, not philosophy.

**If I understand you correctly, the pagans worship gods of wind, fire, earth, nature and things like that. **

Not exactly. The Gods are often associated with specific kinds of natural phenomena, but it is a mistake to think of polytheistic Gods as only the spirits of natural things. Thor is called a God of Thunder, and his Hammer is envisioned as being powerful as a lightning bolt. But that does not mean that he is the personification of lightning. He is a person, whose nature seems poetically connected with the storm - he fights the storm giants and is himself a wielder of storm.

Later Greek poets did a disservice to polytheism, i think, by turning the Twelve Olympians into mere personifications of natural principles, and the Romans, as literal-minded a folk as ever lit the Sacred Fire, took that even further. In broader practice while the Gods do have their preferences and ‘rulerships’, never think that Aphrodite can’t hurl thunderbolts, or Thor can’t grant love.

**If that is correct, then you should be worshipping the god of electricity. **

Here we approach a more animistic perspective. It can be useful to be in a relationship of respect and honor (i.e. worship)with electricity. We often think of the divine as being present in/as impersonal energies or powers, as well as in/as the persons we call the Gods. We see spirit in a stone, but we seldom think of it as being a human-shaped fellow living in a little study inside the rock. Likewise we might burn a little incense to the spirit of electricity, but it wouldn’t likely be the same sort of worship-relationship we would have with a God.

So do you consider magnetism and electricity to be gods?

Many Pagans work with impersonal divine powers. Some of us think of those as Sky Power and Earth Power. These are not ‘worshipped’ commonly, so much as they are ‘used’. Since we humans have a spark and spring of the divine in us, we can make use of these impersonal powers for our own will. Sometimes we think of the Gods as using these same impersonal divine powers to make and uphold the worlds. Thus, we have a shred of the very same power the Gods have in abundance.

**I’m sorry if that offends you but can you not see that these things are simply forces of nature. They cannot speak, think or act on their own. **

Yes, the impersonal forces don’t act ‘on their own’ though they do flow where they flow and cause what effects they cause, just as do electricity and magnetism. The Gods are persons, not metaphors for natural things. They, and we use the divine forces according to our will(s).

For instance, I can prove that Mary exists and appeared at Fatima. The proof is in the eyewitness accounts of 80,000 people.

In ancient Greece, the Eleusinian Mysteries annually provided the vision of the Gods to thousands of people each year for century after century. I predict less than a decade before the Old Gods begin to reappear in popular vision.

Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

**It may be the largest neo-pagan group in the US, but it looks like a fringe group to me. **

Do we say largest neopagan group? I’m confident we are one of…
Fringe? Certainly. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn’t all innovation start out at the fringe?

**Starting your own religion isn’t new. **

Certainly not - goes back to Abraham at least.
Every religion was new to begin with. Neopaganism is coming into our second hundred years, and growing strong

If you have 10 people in your “Grove”, and it increases to 15, you have increased 50%! Wow! That’s a lot faster than our local parish’s growth.

Totally correct. But we have grown at that sort of pace for many years, and show no particular sign of slowing down. Expect to see Neopagan public temples on the streets of US cities in coming years.

Ian

 

[rlg94086]

Totally correct. But we have grown at that sort of pace for many years, and show no particular sign of slowing down. Expect to see Neopagan public temples on the streets of US cities in coming years.

Ian

Perhaps…perhaps not. Fads come and go. The hippy movement was much larger in the late 60s early 70s, and I don’t see too much different about the ADF. You may have some public temples in places like Eugene, OR; Boulder, CO or Santa Cruz, CA. Without defined doctrine, I don’t think you will get much further than that.

 

[IanCorrigan]

**Perhaps…perhaps not. Fads come and go. The hippy movement was much larger in the late 60s early 70s, and I don’t see too much different about the ADF. **

Neopaganism began in the 1950s, latest. Do fads last for 50+ years?

Our one little sect has some 40 local congregations currently, a growth of about 100% in the last 6-10 years. Our first public, locally-owned temple is in Baltimore - hardly one of the People’s Republic towns.

In our area, we have been renting the same public spaces for ritual for nearly 15 years. We serve congregations of between 40 and 100 folks for our Holy Day rites. That makes our local fairly big by Pagan standards. Really big citywide Pagan things attract thousands, but those do happen in places like San Francisco. We are not numerous by popular standards, but we are building organizations that will outlive their founders.

Since Paganism doesn’t make an effort to proselytise, our continuing growth suggests to me that there is a real ferment ocurring. The Old Gods are returning.

Ian

 

[rlg94086]

Neopaganism began in the 1950s, latest. Do fads last for 50+ years?

I don’t know…that’s a good question. Beatlemania was a fad, but the Beatle’s music is still popular today.

IanCorrigan:

Our one little sect has some 40 local congregations currently, a growth of about 100% in the last 6-10 years. Our first public, locally-owned temple is in Baltimore - hardly one of the People’s Republic towns.

In our area, we have been renting the same public spaces for ritual for nearly 15 years. We serve congregations of between 40 and 100 folks for our Holy Day rites. That makes our local fairly big by Pagan standards. Really big citywide Pagan things attract thousands, but those do happen in places like San Francisco. We are not numerous by popular standards, but we are building organizations that will outlive their founders.

I am unfamiliar with Baltimore, but all cities have at least a segment of their population that fit the “hippy” description. The examples I gave are cities I have been to and I lived near.

IanCorrigan:

Since Paganism doesn’t make an effort to proselytise, our continuing growth suggests to me that there is a real ferment ocurring. The Old Gods are returning.

Like I said…perhaps, perhaps not. I think there are always a group of people who will be attracted to a touchy-feely, self-empowering, anti-establishment religion like neo-paganism. Whether sustained growth can be maintained is another story. All people are attracted to God in some way. Neo-paganism fills the void for some who have not yet found the Truth.

 

[ricko]

In ancient Greece, the Eleusinian Mysteries annually provided the vision of the Gods to thousands of people each year for century after century. I predict less than a decade before the Old Gods begin to reappear in popular vision.

I would hardly call the “Eleusinian Mysteries” as proof that pagan gods exist. As far as the “Mysteries” is concerned it was nothing but a procession lasting nine days with fasting and then drinking and secret rites. No one saw any gods except in a drunken stupor.

 

[Jon_S]

Most of the pagans that I know let their spirtuality hinge on being anything other than Christian.

 

[KarenNC]

** At one time, almost everyone was pagan but now almost everyone is Christian, over 1 billion Catholics alone. **

33% does not “almost everyone” make.

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

** It may be the largest neo-pagan group in the US, but it looks like a fringe group to me. Starting your own religion isn’t new. And, saying you are the “fastest growing” religion doesn’t mean much. **

ADF’s website cites us as variously the “largest Druidic organization in America” and “the largest Neopagan Druidic organization in the English-speaking world”, not the largest Neopagan one (unless you can provide a specific citation? I did not find one).

adf.org/about/adf-and-obod.html
and
adf.org/about/qa.html

Wicca is actually considered the largest Neopagan religious movement–
answers.com/topic/neopaganism. Since many Neopagans are not organized into structures like parishes or congregations, I am not sure what the largest “organization” would be.

For instance, I can prove that Mary exists and appeared at Fatima. The proof is in the eyewitness accounts of 80,000 people.

Let me first say that I am not denying in the following argument the possibility of an apparition of Mary. I am, however, questioning the use of eyewitness accounts of believers of one religion as constituting any more reliable or objective “proof” than that of accounts of the believers of any other religion or the use of sheer numbers as having any real relevance to this sort of conversation.

To quote John Michael Greer in his book “A World Full of Gods: an inquiry into polytheism” p. 89:
“Consider a devout Protestant Christian arguing for the exclusive or inclusive reality of her own religion’s deity, over against those of other religions. Her counterpart is a Bengali tantrika who worships Kali. What forms of evidence can the Protestant cite for the sole reality of her god? She can introduce scriptures; so can the tantrika. She can claim the scriptures were divinely inspired; so can the tantrika. She can point to wondrous events described in the scriptures; so can the tantrika. She can describe miracles that have happened within living memory; so can the tantrika. She can discuss the lives and works of the holy people of her tradition; so can the tantrika. She can, finally, bring up her own personal experience of the god she worships–and, of course, so can the tantrika.”

Let us presume your argument that numbers of witnesses or adherents or length of existence of organized worship “proves” the validity or existence of a deity. What is the numerical threshold for a religion or deity to be “real”–if 5 people believe it? 50? 500? 5000? 500,000? How many of those who are not believers have to agree that a particular deity is “real” before s/he becomes so?

Let’s apply that criteria to Christianity. At what point in its history did Christianity amass enough years of existence before it became a "real’ religion rather than a “fad?”
Wilken lists the total number of Christians within the Roman Empire by the beginning of the second century CE as follows: “The total number of Christians within the empire was probably less than fifty thousand, an infinitesimal number in a society comprising sixty million. The Jews, in contrast, were a significant minority numbering four to five million. Most imhabitants of the Roman Empire had never heard of Christianity, and very few had had any firsthand contact with Christians. Even among educated people little was known about the Christian movement.” (The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, p. 31). If my math is correct, that is about .08 percent. This is 200 years plus after the birth of Jesus.

At what point (ie number of worshippers) do you consider that Jesus became “really” God? Even if only one person believed he was truly God, would that change what you believe to be the fact of his existence? What happens if that one person dies and no one alive believes in his existence? Does he cease to exist?

For that matter, how can you “prove” to me that you exist, by your own criteria? Certainly you say that you exist, you might be able to provide me with references that others claim that you exist, but I can’t see you. I can’t touch you. The references might be faked. The people who claim to know you may be lying or just mistaken. To my knowledge, no one I know or trust has ever seen you or even heard of you. All I can experience directly is the traces of your passage by the changes in this website. I can demand that you appear in my presence to prove to me that you exist. What if you really don’t care whether I believe you are real or not and choose not to do so? Even if you do care enough to appear, how do I know that you are really you and not someone or something else pretending to be you?

 

[KarenNC]

Most of the pagans that I know let their spirtuality hinge on being anything other than Christian.

I’m sorry. I’ve known some folks like that, and I have to say I feel rather sorry for them. I would much rather frame my religious identity in terms of what I do believe rather than what I don’t. I am a Classical Hellenic Neopagan, not an “not-Christian.”

 

[KarenNC]

Without defined doctrine, I don’t think you will get much further than that.

It took the Council of Nicea in 325 CE to define a uniform “Christian” doctrine.