Neocatechumenal Way Liturgy

[David_B]

I recall reading awhile back that the Neocatechumenal Way has special permission to modify the Mass. What exactly are these changes they are allowed to make to the Mass?

My memory could be failing me but I recall something about the congregation receiving communion seated in their chairs/pews.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Can’t provide a list of permitted changes, but La Chiesa offers some background into prior controversy about its liturgies. I cannot verify the authenticity of its reporting, but at least it illuminates concerns expressed about certain reported practices.
I post this solely as background and look forward to clarification myself.

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6894&eng=y

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=21939&eng=y

cantemusdomino.net/blog/archives/001370.php

Father Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL recently addressed something at the ETWN site ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=2&Pg=Forum9&recnu=30&number=443082

Amy Wellborn has blogged on this amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/01/the_way.html

However contrary to what Fr. Gantley writes, I think the NW received approval of its statutes in 2002 ad experimentum and for five years.

 

[netmilsmom]

cameron_lansing:

Can’t provide a list of permitted changes, but La Chiesa offers some background into prior controversy about its liturgies. I cannot verify the authenticity of its reporting, but at least it illuminates concerns expressed about certain reported practices.
I post this solely as background and look forward to clarification myself.

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6894&eng=y

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=21939&eng=y

cantemusdomino.net/blog/archives/001370.php

Father Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL recently addressed something at the ETWN site ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=2&Pg=Forum9&recnu=30&number=443082

Amy Wellborn has blogged on this amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/01/the_way.html

However contrary to what Fr. Gantley writes, I think the NW received approval of its statutes in 2002 ad experimentum and for five years.

Oh my! JPII may have loved these people but lets pray that B16 cleans up the mess, along with the other mistakes.

 

[David_B]

cameron_lansing:

Can’t provide a list of permitted changes, but La Chiesa offers some background into prior controversy about its liturgies. I cannot verify the authenticity of its reporting, but at least it illuminates concerns expressed about certain reported practices.
I post this solely as background and look forward to clarification myself.

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6894&eng=y

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=21939&eng=y

cantemusdomino.net/blog/archives/001370.php

Father Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL recently addressed something at the ETWN site ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=2&Pg=Forum9&recnu=30&number=443082

Amy Wellborn has blogged on this amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/01/the_way.html

However contrary to what Fr. Gantley writes, I think the NW received approval of its statutes in 2002 ad experimentum and for five years.

Thank you very much for all these resources on the Neocatechumenal Way Liturgy.

I wonder if there’s anyone else out there that’s had lots of firsthand experience with the Way.

 

[oat_soda]

actually, i’ve been apart of “the way” for almost a year. some groups have been around for well over 15 years. it goes through a series of stages as you get deeper into it.

the catechesis they gave us on the liturgy is a little strange. they tend to evaluate its evolution as merely a historical development that lost its meaning because of too many accretions added through time, like an over emphasis of sacrifice and our unworthiness. they try to celebrate mass like it was by the early christians.

the problem i have is it is a fabrication. much like the novus ordo mass. it loses touch with the cosmic aspect and orientation of the mass and tends to close in on itself until we basically worship the community. there is no transendence about it, no being part of something greater then ourselves. it is totally focused on the individual’s experiance. and to top it off, we do this corny dance around the table and sing some hebrew song.

the music is mostly tamborines and guitars. no organ because the ancient christians/jews didn’t have organs or gregorian chant. i hope you get the picture.

 

[Tintin]

In response to the previous post by Oat Soda.

Yes, I’m afraid I get the picture very well.

May I humbly suggest (and please don’t take this as an insult), that perhaps you have witnessed liturgical practices which:

a) Are not what you are used to
b) Are not to your particular taste
c) The theology, basis, & reason for implementation of which you happen to be ignorant or not fully understand.
As you are clearly someone who cares about and has taken the time to educate themselves about the liturgy, I would guess that it is a natural and usually correct reaction when you see something that is odd to you in the liturgy to cry “abuse”.

However what you have done in regard to the liturgy celebrated by those in the NeoCatechumenate is to observe things unusual to you and your understanding, and attempted to explain and interpret them yourself, rather than to seek education and counsel from those more knowledgeable than yourself.

The result of this is that you present the differences in this liturgy as at best mundane and at worst sacrilegious.

In doing so you bear false witness.

 

[Tintin]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Oh my! JPII may have loved these people but lets pray that B16 cleans up the mess, along with the other mistakes.

David B:

Thank you very much for all these resources on the Neocatechumenal Way Liturgy.

I wonder if there’s anyone else out there that’s had lots of firsthand experience with the Way.

The difference between these two responses to the same thing is very striking to me.
.…He shall not judge by hearsay…

**cameron_lansing, **May I commend you on an exemplary post.

I haven’t had time to read through all of what is on these links, but if anyone has any specific queries about the Neo Catechumenate, I shall be happy to try to answer.

I am relatively well informed about matters NeoCatechumenal and have access to resources to which I can resort in times of ignorance. I should clarify that I probably don’t have the time or energy for any intense debate on here, but I will be glad to offer what assistance I can to those with sincere enquiries.
David B:

I wonder if there’s anyone else out there that’s had lots of firsthand experience with the Way.

It is perhaps pertinent for me to explain at this juncture that due to the fundamentally pedagogical nature of the NeoCatechumenal Way, a year, though it may sound like a long time, represents more of a slight acquaintance rather than a lot of experience.

 

[oat_soda]

a) Are not what you are used to
b) Are not to your particular taste
c) The theology, basis, & reason for implementation of which you happen to be ignorant or not fully understand.

taste aside, there are legitimate problems with the way’s liturgy. basically, it has arbitrarily changed the traditional roman rite according to a misconception of how the liturgy was celebrated by the early christians. it soley focuses on the seder/passover meal analogy as a way to properly understand what the liturgy is about.

our faith is not something subject to the creativity of a community or a liturgical designer. all we have is what has been handed down to us which through time has been better defined in response to changing times. liturgical dance is completely foriegn to the roman rite, as are “echos”, tamborines, and guitars.

in absolutely no way does it have the same ethos or appearance as the tridentine mass or any historical mass of the latin rite where we have a good idea of how it was celebrated. it certainly is nothing like the divine litugies of the east.

However what you have done in regard to the liturgy celebrated by those in the NeoCatechumenate is to observe things unusual to you and your understanding, and attempted to explain and interpret them yourself, rather than to seek education and counsel from those more knowledgeable than yourself.

if there is an online source for the way’s liturgical catechesis, i would be interested in seeing it. here is my problem with the way, they keep things secret and vague -just like the mormons and masons. this gives the impression that it is exclusive and esoteric.

 

[shannon_e]

I would just like to make a couple of points.

I’ve been in the Way for a little over a year; which as shayward points out-- is a drop in the bucket.

I don’t want to debate, nor do I feel qualified to get into much depth.

I will point out that I am a skeptical person-- so I go into the Way with my eyes open.

The Statutes of the Way have been approved.

vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFindEN%2Ecfg&host_id=42&page_id=16716&query=statutes+neocatechumenal+way&hiword=neocatechumenal+statutes+way+

here’s some more links:

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE PRIESTS AND CATECHISTS OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY
Saturday, 21 September 2002

vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFindEN%2Ecfg&host_id=42&page_id=70735&query=statutes+neocatechumenal+way&hiword=neocatechumenal+statutes+way+

vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmFind.exe?query=statutes+neocatechumenal+way&CFGNAME=MssFindEN.cfg&en=x

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=30005

camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/index.asp

Now, back to the points I would like to make.

The Way does not come into a parish without going through the Bishop of that Diocese. To do so would be against their own rules.

I have only seen people (myself included) become more involved in their parish and community since they joined the Way-- not less.

The “dancing” you hear about, is after the Mass has ended and the Bishop or Priest has processed out. There is no liturgical dancing (ugh, gag).

Guitars and tamborines are used because they are mobile (can’t bring a pipe organ onto the bus). The Way is of an evangelical nature, and appreciates travelling light .

The Way does not in any way de-emphasize the Sacrifice of Christ. I think sometimes that an attitude of gratitude may sometimes be mis-viewed as being an over-emphasis on the celebration aspect of the Mass.

Man o man, if the Sacrifice were in any way de-emphasized, I would be outta there in a shake of a lamb’s tail…

The immersion in Scripture, in the Word-- has been such a great grace in my life. [relevant side note: every song is straight out of scripture]

another kind of silly thing I want to clear up. There is one section for “echoes”. Not after every reading (sheesh). It’s voluntary, of course. Sometimes you don’t get many, sometimes a lot.

The Statutes have been approved. The Liturgy of the Word is approved. The Mass is permitted while it is being studied. (this is what my Bishop said after returning after a meeting last autumn? with John Paul II in Rome) My Bishop went on to say that if Rome does not end up deciding to approve the Mass, then of course we will drop it like a hot potato.

[interesting side note: I believe that when Papa Benedict was an Archbishop, he brought the Way into… where was it… Moscow?]

To my understanding, this is why we aren’t encouraged to invite people to the Mass. Not because of any secrets. Rome has access to “all there is to see” about the Neocatechumenal Way, and what Rome says, goes. But even though it is permitted, I personally would rather hold off on inviting…
But I invite folks to Liturgy of the Word as much as I can! I think Liturgy of the Word is wonderful!!! To me it’s like a natural growth and expansion of the breaking of the Word that happens during RCIA programs.

And the Priest who baptized me was soo right when he said: If I give you one piece of advice, it would be this: Immerse yourself in Scripture."

The bread is valid and licit. (unleavened- made only from flour and water)

Erg-- I have to go to work.

 

[oat_soda]

The “dancing” you hear about, is after the Mass has ended and the Bishop or Priest has processed out. There is no liturgical dancing (ugh, gag).

true, but is still silly and awkard and it has no historical place in ANY christian liturgy. it is a total fabrication.

Guitars and tamborines are used because they are mobile (can’t bring a pipe organ onto the bus). The Way is of an evangelical nature, and appreciates travelling light

what about sacrosantum concillium’s call for the organ and gregorian chant given pride of place?

another kind of silly thing I want to clear up. There is one section for “echoes”. Not after every reading (sheesh). It’s voluntary, of course. Sometimes you don’t get many, sometimes a lot.

again another innovation which is foriegn to the liturgy. this is an example of how the community is stressed and not what the liturgy is really about.

there are at least two issues with the way’s liturgy:

1. its celebration would normally consititute liturgical abuse -for example, no kneeling, only receiving in the hand sitting down, guitar playing during eucharistic prayer, altering the eucharistic prayer with “father, father” called out twice, dancing around altar, and echos. if it is ok for the way to do it, why not for everyone? what does this say about the transcendence of the liturgy?
2. its dubious historical origins. it has no counterpart in the historical development of any apostolic liturgy of both the east and west. it reflects the mindset of the 60s which was supercritical of tradition. a good example is how priests are normally called “presiders”.

if you let what would normally constitute a liturgical abuse to be permitted, why enforce them at all? you can’t have it both ways. if it is okay to play instruments during the eucharistic prayer and recieve the eucharist sitting down in one instance, why not at you typical small week day mass?

it makes the celebration of the mass completely arbitrary and trivializes the apostolic traditions of the mass. it says that liturgical abuses are relative and are totally up to ecclesial authorities to decide when something is consisdered a abuse. this basically says the liturgy is totally the product of the pope and not something that the pope is to serve and cheerish. documents like sacrosanctum consillium loose all their meaning. the liturgy is set in context to the community and not the other way around.

 

[shannon_e]

oat soda:

true, but is still silly and awkard and it has no historical place in ANY christian liturgy.

Those of us who are silly and awkward usually leave the dancing to those who make it look quite pretty and graceful. I don’t know what you’ve seen but what I’ve seen is a very simple leg work. I think it’s something like what they call a grapevine.(?) No arm movements.
It is after the Mass has concluded.

what about sacrosantum concillium’s call for the organ and gregorian chant given pride of place?again another innovation which is foriegn to the liturgy. this is an example of how the community is stressed and not what the liturgy is really about.

what about what Sacrosanctum Concilium says here:
SC:

1. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples’ way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

and also
SC:

116…But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

and
SC:

121…Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.
The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources.

oatsoda:

1. its celebration would normally consititute liturgical abuse -for example, no kneeling, only receiving in the hand sitting down, guitar playing during eucharistic prayer, altering the eucharistic prayer with “father, father” called out twice, dancing around altar, and echos. if it is ok for the way to do it, why not for everyone?

I’ve never heard anyone call out “Father, Father.”

Kneeling: The GIRM allows for situations where kneeling is not possible due to lack of space and/or physical limitations.

The guitar playing during the Eucharistic prayer: It’s a soft, slow,strum that is made one string at a time. (I don’t know what the musical term is). When the Bishop celebrates the Mass-- he sings all the prayers. The guitar background is like a far-away background chord-help.

The auxillary Bishop doesn’t sing the prayers. Perhaps in those instances the guitar will end up being dropped.

What does this say about the transcendence of the liturgy?

I have never seen any diminishment of the liturgy’s transcendence.

1. its dubious historical origins. it has no counterpart in the historical development of any apostolic liturgy of both the east and west. it reflects the mindset of the 60s which was supercritical of tradition. a good example is how priests are normally called “presiders”.

??? It’s historical origins are the Mass. It’s historical foundation is Scripture. Spain, which is where the Way originated-- to my knowledge-- did not have a “60’s”.
I’ve heard “priests” as often as I’ve heard “presiders”. Should I start counting? It just seems like you’re jumping at shadows a bit.

Sorry, oatsoda, but Rome seems to think that we can have it both ways. The body of Christ is comprised of many different parts. Some prefer the TLM, some prefer the Mass, some the Charismatic Movement. There are different groups that form in order to support and encourage a life in Christ.

On the contrary, documents like Sacrosanctum Concilium keep their meaning.
SC:

1. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. ,Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

The SC also states
Sacrosanctum Concilium:

1. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

Not you or me.

 

[oat_soda]

Those of us who are silly and awkward usually leave the dancing to those who make it look quite pretty and graceful.

but it is totally foriegn to the roman rite. to me it is totally out of place. your argument is very subjective.

1. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples.

what does this have to do with the way’s liturgy? this is talking about inculturalization of newly evangelized people. the way started in spain, not in new guinea or sub saharan africa.

The guitar playing during the Eucharistic prayer: It’s a soft, slow,strum that is made one string at a time. (I don’t know what the musical term is)./ QUOTE] does it matter weather it’s soft or hard, when i heard it it was loud. the fact is it is normally illict to have instruments accompany the eucharistic prayer but it always can be sung. this is the case with every apostolic liturgy in the east and west.

Rome seems to think that we can have it both ways. The body of Christ is comprised of many different parts. Some prefer the TLM, some prefer the Mass, some the Charismatic Movement.

rome is allowing it on an experimental basis. i think B16 is totally opposed to these liturgical innovations. read his book spirit of the liturgy.

1. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

amen! it’s not kiko’s mass, mine, our yours. even the pope doesn’t have unlimited power over it. it isn’t his, it has come down to us from the Lord through the apostles through the saints down to us today.

 

[HagiaSophia]

I don’t know much about them, and rather than veer off into just “liturgical dancing” – is there anyone who can synopsize for those like myself, what the basic differences in the liturgical practices of this group vs. “norm” liturgy are?

 

[Tintin]

HagiaSophia:

I don’t know much about them, and rather than veer off into just “liturgical dancing” – is there anyone who can synopsize for those like myself, what the basic differences in the liturgical practices of this group vs. “norm” liturgy are?

Certainly.

Following the gospel, the priest presiding offers to the faithful the opportunity to share with the assembly what God has said to them in the liturgy of word. This is followed by the homily.

The sign of peace is after the prayers of the faithful and before the offertory.

The assembly stand throughout the eucharistic prayer.

For communion, the assembly stay seated in their places and are served with the body and blood of Christ by the priest.
Once the body of christ has been distributed, the priest returns to his seat and the entire assembly (including the priest) consume the body of our Lord at the same time. The priest then drinks the blood of christ and then distributes it to the laity.

Lord I am not worthy to recieve you… is omitted

Due to the pedagogical and catechumenal nature of the neocatechumenate a community will not profess the creed at their community eucharist until they have studied the creed and publically professed their faith.

 

[kmktexas]

shayward:

In response to the previous post by Oat Soda.

Yes, I’m afraid I get the picture very well.

May I humbly suggest (and please don’t take this as an insult), that perhaps you have witnessed liturgical practices which:

The result of this is that you present the differences in this liturgy as at best mundane and at worst sacrilegious.

In doing so you bear false witness.

Shayward, you weren’t even addressing me and I was insulted by what you wrote and the way you wrote it.

Shannon e, I am glad you were able to step in and explain the Neocatechumenal Way liturgy in such a calm, rational and charitable way.

As explained, I can see why many are attracted to it but I also understand why it would make others uncomfortable. Again, thanks.

 

[sconea]

Hello…since some here are familiar with the neocatechumenal way…could anyone tell me if Kiko, who with his friend.the former nun, Carmen, ever held an actual job in his entire life?.

Though fond of some of the neocats I’ve met…the whole story of the history of kiko and his ‘way’ really turned me off. He sounded like an itinerant hippie artist guitar player to me.

If I have Jesus and His Church…why do i need the neocatechumenal way? What is the purpose of it? Why does there Mass have to be different? Is the new idea that we should be a collection of groups rather than a universal church?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[shannon_e]

kmktexas:

Shayward, you weren’t even addressing me and I was insulted by what you wrote and the way you wrote it.

Shannon e, I am glad you were able to step in and explain the Neocatechumenal Way liturgy in such a calm, rational and charitable way.

As explained, I can see why many are attracted to it but I also understand why it would make others uncomfortable. Again, thanks.

Thanks for the kind words you said to me, but for the record, I thought that what Shayward wrote was very well-contained-- especially this part:
As you are clearly someone who cares about and has taken the time to educate themselves about the liturgy, I would guess that it is a natural and usually correct reaction…

[and for the record-- I was initially very offended by Netmil(name removed by moderator)'s post]

Shayward,
I must point out that my work schedule often conflicts with the Mass; but I am discussing these issues with those who are able to attend every Mass. I don’t recall that the local group here omits the “Lord I am not worthy…”, and sometimes the Aux. Bishop does say the Creed.

I can’t stay online long enough to write too much tonight-- but I want to fix one link from a previous post:

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE PRIESTS AND CATECHISTS OF THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY
Saturday, 21 September 2002
vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFindEN%2Ecfg&host_id=42&page_id=72940&query=statutes+neocatechumenal+way&hiword=neocatechumenal+statutes+way+

add a link:

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Like his predecessor, Benedict XVI is counting on young people to evangelize Europe, says a Vatican official.

Addressing more than 35,000 youths of the Neocatechumenal Way who met in Amsterdam last Saturday, Archbishop Stanislaw Rylko said: “Like John Paul II, so Benedict XVI counts on you, on the enthusiasm of your faith, on the missionary impulse shown these days, proclaiming Christ in 150 cities of Europe.”

The president of the Pontifical Council for the Laity expressed Benedict XVI’s greetings to the young people from 28 countries…

for rest of article:
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=70437

sconea,

I’m unable to get into more depth at this time, plus, I have limited knowledge-- but here’s some info for now:

Kiko was/is a painter:

http://www.domusgalilaeae.org/photos/images/icon-madona.jpg
Icon of the Virgin Mary by Kiko Argüello

Sometimes when I think of how much of a hold my job ($!$!) and some of these “things” in my life has on me… could I turn away from those things and throw myself into the capable hands of our Lord?

 

[jdh]

oat soda:

taste aside, there are legitimate problems with the way’s liturgy. basically, it has arbitrarily changed the traditional roman rite according to a misconception of how the liturgy was celebrated by the early christians. it soley focuses on the seder/passover meal analogy as a way to properly understand what the liturgy is about.

This comment seems strange oat soda. The liturgy of the way is the liturgy of the Roman Missal, with very minor changes, largely meant to emphasise the fact (enshrined in the Doctrine of the Catholic Church and repeated by JPII in Ecclesia de Eucharistia) that the Eucharist is a sacrificial paschal banquet and the fulfilment of the passover of the Jews, which is also a sacrificial paschal banquet. What is your precise objection to a theology of the Eucharist which seeks to emphasise this?
oat soda:

our faith is not something subject to the creativity of a community or a liturgical designer. all we have is what has been handed down to us which through time has been better defined in response to changing times. liturgical dance is completely foriegn to the roman rite, as are “echos”, tamborines, and guitars.

Since John Paul II has recognised the Way as “Among the realities generated by the Spirit in our days”, I wonder why you think the eucharistic identity of the way, which forms one third of the ‘tripod’ on which it walks, is of purely human origin? If it is true that the Spirit has generated the Way, why would He abandon it’s liturgy to ‘liturgical designers’? If on the other hand, I and countless others have been helped by the Eucharist celebrated in the Way, and it is regarded as of central importance to the Way’s life, and it has been approved by JPII both in word and deed, is it not more likely that the NeoCatechumenal eucharist is also part of the Way’s authentic charism, and thus worthy of careful study and guidance by the relevant experts (a process currently underway at the Congregation for Divine Worship), rather than summary dismissal?

You comment elsewhere on your (entirely laudable) high regard for the practice of kneeling during the consecration at Sunday mass. But this too was a novelty once, which didn’t become widespread until well into the second millenium, and is in fact in direct contravention of the canons of the First Council of Nicea. If I can’t have my echoes, why should you get your kneeling? The answer is that in canon law, a praxis of 30 years of special episcopal permission is necessary for a practice to become lawful in it’s own right. Thus you may kneel and I may echo.

Oh yeah, and there is no liturgical dance in the eucharist of the Way. People sometimes dance after the mass is ended and the presbyters have left the assembly. This may not be up your street, but there is nothing wrong with it, and nobody wants to make you do it.

In answer to another question, Kiko Arguello was a gifted and succesful young artist, who had won a national prize in Spain. After he abandoned this lifestyle to live amongst the poor, he worked as a teacher, catching three buses to go to work on the other side of Madrid. It sounds to me like he used to work quite hard.

 

[Tintin]

jdh:

This comment seems strange oat soda. The liturgy of the way is the liturgy of the Roman Missal, with very minor changes, largely meant to emphasise the fact (enshrined in the Doctrine of the Catholic Church and repeated by JPII in Ecclesia de Eucharistia) that the Eucharist is a sacrificial paschal banquet and the fulfilment of the passover of the Jews, which is also a sacrificial paschal banquet. What is your precise objection to a theology of the Eucharist which seeks to emphasise this?

Since John Paul II has recognised the Way as “Among the realities generated by the Spirit in our days”, I wonder why you think the eucharistic identity of the way, which forms one third of the ‘tripod’ on which it walks, is of purely human origin? If it is true that the Spirit has generated the Way, why would He abandon it’s liturgy to ‘liturgical designers’? If on the other hand, I and countless others have been helped by the Eucharist celebrated in the Way, and it is regarded as of central importance to the Way’s life, and it has been approved by JPII both in word and deed, is it not more likely that the NeoCatechumenal eucharist is also part of the Way’s authentic charism, and thus worthy of careful study and guidance by the relevant experts (a process currently underway at the Congregation for Divine Worship), rather than summary dismissal?

You comment elsewhere on your (entirely laudable) high regard for the practice of kneeling during the consecration at Sunday mass. But this too was a novelty once, which didn’t become widespread until well into the second millenium, and is in fact in direct contravention of the canons of the First Council of Nicea. If I can’t have my echoes, why should you get your kneeling? The answer is that in canon law, a praxis of 30 years of special episcopal permission is necessary for a practice to become lawful in it’s own right. Thus you may kneel and I may echo.

Oh yeah, and there is no liturgical dance in the eucharist of the Way. People sometimes dance after the mass is ended and the presbyters have left the assembly. This may not be up your street, but there is nothing wrong with it, and nobody wants to make you do it. In my experience it’s a minority activity even amongst hardcore Neocats (here in England anyway).

In answer to another question, Kiko Arguello was a gifted and succesful young artist, who had won a national prize in Spain. After he abandoned this lifestyle to live amongst the poor, he worked as a teacher, catching three buses to go to work on the other side of Madrid. It sounds to me like he used to work quite hard.

 

[oat_soda]

You comment elsewhere on your (entirely laudable) high regard for the practice of kneeling during the consecration at Sunday mass. But this too was a novelty once, which didn’t become widespread until well into the second millenium, and is in fact in direct contravention of the canons of the First Council of Nicea. If I can’t have my echoes, why should you get your kneeling? The answer is that in canon law, a praxis of 30 years of special episcopal permission is necessary for a practice to become lawful in it’s own right. Thus you may kneel and I may echo.

if you read “spirit of the liturgy” by B16, you’ll understand where i’m comming from. he is highly critical of the liturgical abuses found in the way’s liturgy. he writes extensively about the proper orientation of the priest and laity during the eucharistic prayer, and on the differences between religious and sacred music and art, and on body posture, specifically kneeling.

he also specifically criticizes dancing around the altar as a way of the community worshiping itself. this is my main problem with the way’s liturgy. but if it is of the Holy Spirit, i guess it will last. only time will tell.