Neocatechumenal Way

[nagyszakall]

The NCW spin on the Pope’s address is in full swing. Here is the alternative view upon which to ruminate:

johnlallenjr.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/on-the-neocatechumenate-and-making-a-mess/

Where is the “spin in full swing”? The poor guy just posted a link to the full unedited video by the Vatican Radio on youtube… one can watch and form their own opinion. He thinks the Pope looked happy. You could watch and think otherwise if you wish.

What you posted, on the other hand, is blogpost of our dear John Allen. I have read some of his articles before, and one couldn’t deny that he has taken a side already before he wrote this one. Not that taking a side is wrong, it’s just a thing about journalism nowadays: to scrape up everything you can to support a view formed much before the event that you’re reporting on even took place. No news in that. Notify me when John Allen will write a favorable article on the NCW. Now that will be very interesting.

However, I wonder what he means by “the Neocatchumenate also has a reputation for being on the conservative side of most Catholic issues, at a time when Francis seems to be steering the Church into the center.” I would love to see some concrete examples…

 

[Caanan]

From the text of the Holy Father’s address (courtesy of Zenit):

The first is to have the utmost care to build and to preserve the communion within the particular Churches in which you will work…Communion is essential sometimes it can be better to renounce living in all the details that your itinerary demands, in order to ensure the unity among those who form one ecclesial community, of which you must always feel that you are part.

One can only assume that the Pope is addressing the perception that the NCW is often divisive within parishes/dioceses, and that, despite previous injunctions from the Vatican, the NCW remains aloof and exclusive?

Another recommendation: wherever you may go, it would do you well to think that the Spirit of God always gets there ahead of us. The Lord always precedes us! … Even in the most faraway places, even in the most diverse cultures, God scatters everywhere the seeds of his Word. From here, flows the necessity to give special attention to the cultural context in which you, families, will go to work: it consists of an environment often very different from the one from which you come. Many of you will have to work hard to learn the local language, sometimes it will be difficult, and this effort is appreciated. Even more important will be your commitment to “learn” the culture you will encounter, knowing how to recognize the need of the Gospel, which is present wherever, but also that action that the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the life and in the history of every people.

It would appear that Pope Francis is concerned with the NCW imposition of a ‘monoculture’. That is, the pope is highlighting the need for the NCW to respect local cultures, which up until the present has not happened - rather, the NCW have preferred to transplant the catechetical, liturgical and community system invented by Kiko down to the smallest detail.

The freedom of each person must not be forced, and even the eventual choice of someone who decides to seek, outside of the Way, other forms of Christian life that help him to grow in the response to the call of the Lord must be respected.

Pretty obvious admonition by the Pope here. Evidently he shares the concerns of many, that the NCW considers itself ‘superior’ to ‘other forms of Christian life’ and has a militant response to those that wish to leave. “If you leave the community you will be on the road to hell”; “Your children will become murderers and prostitutes” - that sort of thing.

The pope may “have appeared happy”, and may have taken a predominantly pastoral approach, no doubt with genuine care and compassion for the NCW faithful, but he is also clearly chastising the behaviour of the NCW in these respects. I wonder what the members of the NCW will make of this? Perhaps this is the ultimate form of ‘persecution’ which will only encourage them further? Or will they finally acknowledge some of the deep problems that exist in the NCW model?

Your thoughts nagyszakall?

 

[Corki]

Pretty obvious admonition by the Pope here. Evidently he shares the concerns of many, that the NCW considers itself ‘superior’ to ‘other forms of Christian life’ and has a militant response to those that wish to leave. “If you leave the community you will be on the road to hell”; “Your children will become murderers and prostitutes” - that sort of thing.

This is one thing that troubles me about the NCW and other insular groups in the Church. If someone leaves their community but stays in the parish or even if they go to another parish but stay in the Church, they haven’t really left anything and they shouldn’t be treated as if they have.

Personally, I would feel much better about the NCW if they 1) held their services on Sunday, 2) if their catechesis was keyed to the CCC and 3) if they followed the rubrics for Mass. The rest is just “flavor” like more traditional music vs. folk music vs. Life Teen.

 

[Caanan]

Originally Posted by nagyszakall
To conclude, here is a link to the decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity who (after consulting with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) approved the texts that you quoted from as valid and binding support for the catechesis of the NCW:
camminoneocatecumenale.it…Direttorio.PDF

I couldn’t seem to find an English language version of the letter/decree to which you refer. I did find this on the laici.va site though (laici.va/content/laici/en/media/notizie/comunicato-del-pontificio-consiglio-per-i-laici–approvazione-de.html)

This was followed by a decree from this dicastery dated 26 December 2010 that gave authorisation for the publication of the Neocatechumenal Way Catechetical Directory.

Originally Posted by nagyszakall
So, if the Holy See, or even my local ordinary would disband the neocatechumenal communities tomorrow (even though, up till now we have received full support from the hierarchy), I would have a hard time understanding it, but I would obey whatever they legitimately order me to do or not to do.

That’s wonderful nagyszakall!
Does that mean that you remain standing until having consumed the sacred species at NCW Masses? Do you insist that the priest receive (and consume) prior to yourself? Do you then consume the Blessed Sacrament immediately after receiving it to hand? Do you caution the community about overuse of the admonitions, and especially resonances? DO you remind them in particular what is set out in the “Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani” (nn. 105 and 128) and to the Praenotanda of the “Ordo Lectionum Missae” (nn. 15, 19, 38, 42)? Do you insist that the communities attend “Holy Mass of the parish community” at least once a month?

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitcatway.HTM
perhe.katolinen.fi/en_Statute2008.pdf Article 13, footnote 49

 

[jtkalehua88]

One of the parishes not far from my location has the Neocatechuminal Way. My question would be, how does one join it? Do I just start showing up? Do I have to start from the beginning and learn as I go a long? I’m very interested in looking into it. Can I just attend the next meeting?

 

[nagyszakall]

Your thoughts nagyszakall?

Shall I now assume that you’re implying that I haven’t got any thoughts or was this just a question?
Putting humor aside, I was and am genuinely content with the Holy Father’s address beyond him having appeared happy. And yes, I think you’re correct in that his approach is a lot more charitable than, for example, your post of Feb 3, '14 8:21 pm, not to mention any others. Also, you can rest assured that I am resolved to adhere to the deposit of faith and to take to heart all that Holy Mother Church is teaching me through ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium, and I think it would do you good to do the same. And no, I am not implying that your aren’t already trying to do that to the best of your abilities.

 

[nagyszakall]

I couldn’t seem to find an English language version of the letter/decree to which you refer.

It’s one of the first pages of the Catechetical Directory to which you posted a link for download.

 

[nagyszakall]

Here it is:

 

[Caanan]

Originally Posted by nagyszakall
It’s one of the first pages of the Catechetical Directory to which you posted a link for download.

Oh ok, very good. Many thanks for pointing that out! Oh the irony!

 

[Caanan]

the Holy Father seem very happy to be meeting with the mission families of the Way and Kiko in the video: youtube.com/watch?v=gR_8MXJHfac

the video is in Italian and Spanish without English subtitles

Is anyone able to tell me what on earth Kiko is saying in the ten minutes following 1:01:30 in this video? It appears he is addressing the Pope, although he doesn’t appear to want to make eye contact. I know he is audacious (Courage! Brothers!) but surely he is not publicly catechizing the Holy Father?! Surely the Pope is well enough aware of the NCW that he doesn’t need a lecture (by an evidently disturbed man) on its operation?

The Pope looks rather uncomfortable and unimpressed in my opinion; far from happy. I am very curious as to the content of this part of Kiko’s address, rather than just witnessing his manic behaviour. Thanks

 

[nagyszakall]

Oh ok, very good. Many thanks for pointing that out! Oh the irony!

Any thoughts on what it is saying?

 

[Roguish]

All:

The disturbing thing about NCW is not that it exists and operates the way it does. There are countless other movements, organizations, and churches (or whatever they call themselves) that are similar to NCW in terms of what they believe and how they operate. There will always be people who feel attracted them because such movements accomodate pressing human needs.

That’s not particularly disturbing. No, what’s disturbing is that NCW, while being utterly uncatholic in its beliefs and methods, insists that is Catholic – yes even claims to teach Catholicism – and has been getting away with that very succesfully – indeed with papal approval! – for forty years, so succesfully in fact that it now reportedly operates one hundred (!!) seminaries.

If there was ever an insidious and hugely underestimated threat to the survival of genuine Catholicism, I dare say this is it. The fact that NCW has been allowed to continue its activities year after year in spite of wide-spread and ongoing complaints from laity and clergy alike, and the huge and glaringly obvious differences between NCW’s theology and rites, and those of the Catholic church, has been undermining the confidence of many (again, laity and clergy) in the Church as a governing body. Moreover, it is only a matter of a few decades before many of the thousands of priests being churned out by NCW’s global empire of seminaries inevitably make their way up the ecclesial hierarchy into positions of authority, and there will be fewer and fewer non-NCW bishops, arch-bishops and curia to put a kerb on this “phenomenon”. That – I warn all who read this thread – is when things will really get ugly.

@nagyszakall: On a personal note, I don’t rule out the possibility that you’re a decent guy, although in this thread you abandoned civility in response to the very first dissenting post. (I am referring to your disproportionate and disdainful “Pharisee” comment of Apr 1, '13 to jaxster99.) But I guarantee you this: at this point in your spiritual journey, you do not understand Catholicism, which is – and this is worth stating – the most mysterious and hardest to understand of all religions. It is therefore understandable that you are attracted to (and content with) another interpretation of Christianity, i.e. that offered to you by the NCW. You are entitled to believe in that interpretation of Christianity, but trust you me – it is not Catholicism, nor is it the Truth, and therefore it would be appropriate if you and the entire NCW “took your business elsewhere” – but of course I know full well you won’t do that.

In closing, let me say that there IS a way to a profound understanding of Catholicism, but NCW is not it, and never will be, although it seems likely that it will continue to keep its members convinced that it is. Yes, I no longer even rule out the possibility that NCW will succeed at usurping the very name “Catholicism”. Its essence, however, it never will, for that – thankfully – is eternally beyond its reach.

–
R.

 

[nagyszakall]

@nagyszakall

Please don’t leave me hanging there. Do tell me the way to true Catholicism.

Would you say this is it if I’d be going to Mass daily, adoration, weekly confession, try my best at daily prayer and meditation, lectio divina, rosary, reading the Catechism, trying to fit in readings from the Fathers and current Magisterium?

 

[Roguish]

Please don’t leave me hanging there.

Why not? Do you find “hanging there” unpleasant? It is exactly your eagerness to have certainty that tricks you into believing attractive but erroneous forms of Christianity. Trust your doubts for a change.

Would you say this is it if I’d be going to Mass daily, adoration, weekly confession, try my best at daily prayer and meditation, lectio divina, rosary, reading the Catechism, trying to fit in readings from the Fathers and current Magisterium?

No. Any of that can be done (or at least attempted) with or without a proper understanding of Catholicism – it will not instill such an understanding, though it may strengthen it once it is present.

Do tell me the way to true Catholicism.

Someone of your temperament will have to find his own way. But to make that possible you’ll have to get away from people that offer a canned “way”, supposedly better than the rest and all that’s gone before, and that pat you on the back for joining and supporting such a way, and would have you believe that you’d be a lot worse off without them or – equally treacherous – they without you.

Be earnest, be humble. Not (only) toward others, but for yourself. Be silent. Do not fall for the temptation of “certainty”, of belonging to a group that “gets it right”, of “knowing” you’re slightly (or a lot) better, of taking a subtle pride in your “acceptance” of your sinfulness or in your having “given up” all hope in yourself. Don’t look forward to “advancing” on your spiritual career. Don’t look for promotions – look for demotions. Don’t try to get “better” at it. Get worse. Back out. Sever all support. You think you’re spiritually advanced? Good, now prove it – again, to yourself, not to others. Stand alone, without medals, awards, decorations or other measures of “progress”, and without your “community”.

And until you’ve managed that, stop evangelizing. Do not believe that “gently” pressuring people can be “for their own good”. Do not tell yourself that “they will understand later” while you “already understand”. Do not indulge feelings of superiority or of “justifiable” anger. You are only shooting yourself in the foot by acting on such feelings, and if you can muster the sincerity I am speaking of, a day will come when you will see that. That day will be a happy day, because although by that time you may have lost many of your friends both inside and outside the NCW, it will be the day you will understand that it IS through Christ’s Sacrifice that you can be right with God and can humbly walk in HIS Way.

Peace be with you.​

Roguish

 

[nagyszakall]

Why not? Do you find “hanging there” unpleasant?

No. You said that there IS a way to a profound understanding of Catholicism. So I was curious to see what, according to you, that way WAS. But that was just because I was trying to figure out where you’re coming from.
I am shocked to notice that in your description of the way to true Catholicism the Church does not figure at all. Are you a Buddhist? You sure sound like one…
And thanks for your advice. Hope you don’t get offended if I won’t heed it.

 

[Caanan]

Originally Posted by **nagyszakall **
Any thoughts on what it is saying?

I’m afraid I don’t have enough time to go to any great detail at the moment. But the first observation I would make is that the admission of “corrections” to the text suggests that the text that had been in use for 40years, having been the fundamental means by which communities, members and catechists have been formed, was doctrinally in error or at the very least doctrinally ambiguous.

All the communities and their members currently engaged in the NCW have therefore been exposed to possibly heterodox teaching.

We know of some of the problems with the original texts - the subtle denial of the sacrifice of the mass, the mockery of adoration of the blessed sacrament, the understanding of sin etc. While the new text (2012) may have been altered sufficiently to avoid further investigation, to what extent have those admission of errors been communicated to the NCW “true believers”?

Another observation: Even in the revised text, Kiko et al continually construct false dichotomy and strawman arguments to prove their points. See for example the ambiguity on the question of the altar/priests etc as recently mentioned in this thread. The approach seems to be to set at odds the ‘pastoral’ or ‘spiritual’ against the so-called ‘juridical’. IN fact the text is full of such, as if in some way, the Church could be divided against itself.

There is no contradiction in Christ, the reconciler of all, and hence no contradiction in the Church, which at all times is both pastoral in its activity and juridical in its authority. There is no opposition between the Justice and Mercy of God.

The mockery of the non-Neo Church and its practices are precisely the foundation for the arrogance and ‘subtle pride’ of which Roguish speaks.

A clue to this may be found in Kiko’s introduction, which, after he has attempted to reduce the issue of the ‘corrections’ to virtually nothing, goes on to subtly put down the whole idea of ‘truth’ as necessary for instruction - preferring rather to claim a sort of superior spiritual endorsement that rejects the need for the, presumably, ‘juridical’ obsession with doctrinal orthodoxy. I wonder whether that is the reason that the texts carry no “nihil obstat” or “imprimatur”?

 

[nagyszakall]

I think a decree from a dicastery of the Holy See (having examined the results of the study of another) saying that the text gets a “special approval” in order to give “doctrinal guarantee to all the pastors” and the words “approves the publication as a valid and binding support” goes way beyond a nihil obstat and an imprimatur, which can be granted by a censor and a local ordinary.

It seems to me that you simply don’t like what the decree says, which is understandable after having read your posts. Your personal aversion is duly noted, but it is your opinion. I wish it could be reconciled somehow with the official position of the Church, but I don’t see how.

 

[eddyr2]

Is anyone able to tell me what on earth Kiko is saying in the ten minutes following 1:01:30 in this video? It appears he is addressing the Pope, although he doesn’t appear to want to make eye contact. I know he is audacious (Courage! Brothers!) but surely he is not publicly catechizing the Holy Father?! Surely the Pope is well enough aware of the NCW that he doesn’t need a lecture (by an evidently disturbed man) on its operation?

The Pope looks rather uncomfortable and unimpressed in my opinion; far from happy. I am very curious as to the content of this part of Kiko’s address, rather than just witnessing his manic behaviour. Thanks

Kiko is going over all the steps of the Way, to explain why all these families are will to go on this mission. He is showing how each step in the Way has helped these people (re)discover Christ and the Church. He also explain how many of these people never went to Church or believed in God before the started the Way and now they are willing to leave everything the witness to Christ and the Church.

I know personally 3 people who where at this meeting and the fact that they are willing to leave everything and help the Church in parts of the world that have been dechristianization is truly an act of the Holy Sprint.

Also Pope Francis Look very happy when he is blessing the families and priest going on the mission (1:26-1:46 mark)

 

[Caanan]

Originally Posted by eddyr2
Kiko is going over all the steps of the Way, to explain why all these families are will to go on this mission. He is showing how each step in the Way has helped these people (re)discover Christ and the Church. He also explain how many of these people never went to Church or believed in God before the started the Way and now they are willing to leave everything the witness to Christ and the Church.

Thankyou, I do appreciate your response.

Do you think the pope needed to be instructed on these things? Or was it for the purpose of Kiko having a video of himself giving the Pope a lesson on how great he (Kiko) is, so he could build himself up some more?

In any case, in my opinion, the pope looks less than impressed!

 

[Caanan]

Further to my previous. I wonder whether Kiko, during his lecture to the pope “going over all the steps of the Way, to explain why all these families are will to go on this mission (sic)”, mentioned the obligation of tithing? Or the obligation to use only the songs of Kiko? Or to use only the icons of Kiko? Or the Kiko guitar strap? Or Kiko’s sacred vessels? Or Kiko’s superior chairs? Or the famed Kiko carpets?

I wonder whether Kiko gave the Pope one of his “Holy cards” that were given out during lent of 2012? internetica.it/neocatecumenali/english/kiko-symphonic.htm