Nephilim

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I, too, was a bit perplexed by Gen 6:1-4 and Jesus quote about angels taking flesh. But that reference pertains to Heaven. We must remember we are discussing two realms. One supernatural (outside of space and time) and one physical (temporal). When we enter Heaven, the supernatural, we too will be like the angels in form. Mark 12:25.

When we pass on we leave behind the body and enter a state of Grace (pure form). Only the Lord and supernatural beings my pass unrestricted between realms. Thus when angels are in Heaven they take the form of pure grace. When they pass to the physical realm and are affected by time they take a physical form or reside in one. Wrestling with Jacob, angels at Sodom, angels ministering to Jesus, Gabriel and Mary, etc.

Angels are given physical attributes and abilities 1 Chron. 21:15 “Stay your hand” or Matthew 28:2 “Rolled back the stone, and sat upon it.”

Better yet when the Holy Spirit appears it’s almost always in the form of a dove.

I’m under the impression that the affects of the temporal realm would require them to take a physical form. Thus allowing them to mate with humans.
 
Patrick…

Lets state for the record that Enoch is not accepted as divinely inspired. Its not in any Canon, Christian or Hebrew. Wasn’t in the Septuagint …and one of major issues leading to its rejection was this myth, fiction of Angels having IC with humans.
This is actually incorrect. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church include the book of Enoch in their Canon of scripture as well as the Ethiopian Jews.

I think its interesting to note that if one looks through history, you will notice something very interesting. During the earliest period of the Church (first/Second century to mid-third century) it was widely accepted that angels mated with humans to bring about the race of nephilim. In fact, the book of Enoch had wide acceptance and on many occasions was spoken of as SCRIPTURE.

However as time progresses, a certain distaste and disgust for the idea of human-Angel breeding grows and spreads through the Church. The view gains wide acceptance among the later fathers and culminates in the book"s exclusion from the local councils and synods of the 4th and 5th century. The book ,soon after this, fell out of favour and disappeared for centuries until it was discovered among the Ethiopians about a 2 or 3 centuries ago (if my history is correct)

It should also be mentioned that Nephilim strictly translates to “the fallen ones” or “those from above” (a loose translationY). This strongly hints at the idea of angel-human breeding.
 
I am not sure if this was discussed here on this thread…I skimmed through this thread to see…but I didn’t see anything…but it does seem like this issue does appear again in Scripture in another place, and oddly enough it is found in the same letter that quotes the Book of Enoch…,Jude.

Jude 6-7
The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day. Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Here you have a comparison of Angels practicing “sexual promiscuity” which would be “unnatural” for them so they too, like Sodom and Gomorrah, go down to “eternal fire.”
 
This is actually incorrect. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church include the book of Enoch in their Canon of scripture as well as the Ethiopian Jews.

I think its interesting to note that if one looks through history, you will notice something very interesting. During the earliest period of the Church (first/Second century to mid-third century) it was widely accepted that angels mated with humans to bring about the race of nephilim. In fact, the book of Enoch had wide acceptance and on many occasions was spoken of as SCRIPTURE.

However as time progresses, a certain distaste and disgust for the idea of human-Angel breeding grows and spreads through the Church. The view gains wide acceptance among the later fathers and culminates in the book"s exclusion from the local councils and synods of the 4th and 5th century. The book ,soon after this, fell out of favour and disappeared for centuries until it was discovered among the Ethiopians about a 2 or 3 centuries ago (if my history is correct)

It should also be mentioned that Nephilim strictly translates to “the fallen ones” or “those from above” (a loose translationY). This strongly hints at the idea of angel-human breeding.
Thats just another of Satan’s lies …started to confuse and divide us into for/against camps !!! Anything to break the unity and …to allow some to think/say …" the devil ( in my genes) made me do it"
 
Thats just another of Satan’s lies …started to confuse and divide us into for/against camps !!! Anything to break the unity and …to allow some to think/say …" the devil ( in my genes) made me do it"
:rolleyes:

The fact that the Church has no official position on this issue allows for such a discussion. Trust me, the Church will not have another schism over such a small issue…
 
Why are the Nephilim referred to as famous heroes of men in Genesis 6:4 (“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterward–when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.”), but in the text of the Book of Enoch from the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are portrayed as wicked giants who tormented the humans, and were part of the reason why God sent the flood to cleanse the earth?

Can anyone qualify this discrepancy for me? Why the difference between these two texts? I understand that the Book of Enoch is not a part of the Catholic Canon, but I still think that it’s fairly relevant… if not in a religious sense than at least in a cultural one.

Not really an urgent question or anything, I’m just curious.
Here is the Jerusalem Bible(1966) commentary on Genesis 6;4.

An obscure passage (from the ‘Yahwistic’ tradition). The author uses a popular story of a race of giants, in Hebr. Nephilim, the Titans of eastern legend, born of the union between gods and mortals. The author does not present this episode as a myth nor, on the other hand, does he deliver judgement on its actual occurrence; he records the anacdote of a race of supermen simply to serve as an example of the increasing human malice that is to provoke the Deluge.

Later Judaism and almost all the earliest ecclesiastical writers identify the ‘sons of God’ with the fallen angels; but from the 4th centry onwards, as the idea of angelic natures becomes less material, the Fathers commonly take the ‘sons of God’ to be Seth’s descendants and the ‘daughters of men’ those of Cain.
 
Here is the Jerusalem Bible(1966) commentary on Genesis 6;4.

An obscure passage (from the ‘Yahwistic’ tradition). The author uses a popular story of a race of giants, in Hebr. Nephilim, the Titans of eastern legend, born of the union between gods and mortals. The author does not present this episode as a myth nor, on the other hand, does he deliver judgement on its actual occurrence; he records the anacdote of a race of supermen simply to serve as an example of the increasing human malice that is to provoke the Deluge.

Later Judaism and almost all the earliest ecclesiastical writers identify the ‘sons of God’ with the fallen angels; but from the 4th centry onwards, as the idea of angelic natures becomes less material, the Fathers commonly take the ‘sons of God’ to be Seth’s descendants and the ‘daughters of men’ those of Cain.
Yes …and although St. AUGUSTINE may of ( ??) @ one time thought it possible, he wrote against it in his CITY OF GOD …explaining that Genesis passage just as you explain above.
 
Patrick…

Lets state for the record that Enoch is not accepted as divinely inspired. Its not in any Canon, Christian or Hebrew. Wasn’t in the Septuagint …and one of major issues leading to its rejection was this myth, fiction of Angels having IC with humans.
Read: Ethiopia, both the Christians and the Jews.

As I mentioned earlier, the idea that the “sons of God” were angels who interbred with human women and passed on forbidden knowledge to mankind was a well-known idea during the Second Temple period, as attested by literary works from the period like 1 Enoch and others quoted above. Some manuscripts of the Septuagint even attest to the reading oi angeloi tou Theou “the angels of God,” although the tradition is not uniform: it could have very well originally read oi yioi tou Theou “the sons of God,” the reading followed in critical editions. (For the record, the Ethiopian translations of Genesis follow the “angels of God” translation.) Nevertheless, this variant was apparently popular enough to influence several Jewish and early Christian authors.

Later, however, the idea that fallen heavenly spirits could produce offspring with human women was deemed unacceptable in both Christianity and Judaism for a variety of reasons. One possibility is that this idea was eventually struck out post-AD 70 as a part of the general rejection of Enochic traditions along with other groups and practices perceived to be outside the bounds of “normative” Judaism. (This would explain why Enochic literature was not accepted by most Jews except for the ones at Ethiopia.) At least in the Talmudic period (AD 200-600), when we might expect to find this view voiced in classical midrashim alongside dissenting opinions and alternative interpretations, our sources are mostly silent about fallen angels.

In fact, there was a campaign started by Rabbi Simeon bar Yoḥai, a disciple of the rabbi Akiva, explicitly condemning anyone who understood ḇənê-hā’ĕlōhîm as referring to “sons of God,” i.e. angels, due to its perceived blasphemy. The favored interpretation is that ḇənê-hā’ĕlōhîm should be understood, not as “sons of God,” but “sons of the great ones” or “sons of the judges:” in other words, “the sons of the great” (i.e. human nobles) chose wives for themselves among “the daughters of men” (i.e. the commoners), who were of course powerless to resist their betters (cf. the use of the word ’ĕlōhîm in Exodus 22:7.) This interpretation is generally followed by later targumim, translations of Scriptural books into Aramaic. Aquila, who produced his own Greek translation, rendered the phrase in question hyper-literally as oi yioi tōn theōn “the sons of the gods:” which is notable as he often translates ’ĕlōhîm in the singular when the Hebrew God is meant. Apparently Aquila understood the term as denoting “the sons of the false gods.”

This, however, does not mean that the tradition disappeared immediately as a result of the campaign. A contemporary of Akiva, Rabbi Ishmael b. Elisha, still contended that the legend of the fallen angels was historical fact. Also, the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan seems to reflect a confused tradition in its rendition of Genesis 6:

And it was when the sons of men began to multiply upon the face of the earth, and fair daughters were born to them; and the sons of the great saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and painted, and curled, walking with revelation of the flesh, and with imaginations of wickedness; that they took them wives of all who pleased them. And the Lord said by His Word, All the generations of the wicked which are to arise shall not be purged after the order of the judgments of the generation of the deluge, which shall be destroyed and exterminated from the midst of the world. Have I not imparted My Holy Spirit to them, (or, placed My Holy Spirit in them,) that they may work good works? And, behold, their works are wicked. Behold, I will give them a prolongment of a hundred and twenty years, that they may work repentance, and not perish.

Schamchazai and Uzziel, who fell from heaven, were on the earth in those days; and also, after the sons of the Great had gone in with the daughters of men, they bare to them: and these are they who are called men who are of the world, men of names.

In keeping with Rabbi Simeon and other targumim, this Aramaic translation renders the term in question as “the sons of the great,” but at the same time it also makes references to the language and to the tradition found in 1 Enoch (Schamchazai and Uzziel = Shemihazah and Asael).
 
Eventually, the idea that the “sons of God” might be angels only resurfaced in Judaism during the Middle Ages.

As for Christians, the decline of the “sons of God” as fallen angels tradition can also be attributed to the abandonment of Enochic pseudepigrapha in most circles, as in rabbinic Judaism. Just as the status of Enoch declined with the severing of its connection to the exegesis of Genesis, so the support for this interpretation dwindled with the marginalization of the book once used as a source for traditions about fallen angels.

Unlike in Judaism, it took longer for most of Christianity to finally shake off Enoch. Whereas the Rabbinic movement never granted any Enochic literature any level of authority, the same cannot be said of Christianity. Even as many early Christians used used the “book(s) of Enoch” for a variety of purposes, the account of the angelic descent seems to have been its most useful element for apologists and heresiologists. Already in the 2nd century, Christians could cite a variety of non-Enochic sources to assert Enoch’s special righteousness and even his escape from death. By contrast, the traditions about the teaching of the fallen angels lay at the heart of a distinctively Christian apporach to Genesis 6:1-4 as an etiology of pagan culture.

The importance of the motif of illicit angelic instruction for early Christian exegesis of Genesis 6:1-4 is even evident in the Chronicle of Julius Africanus (ca. 160-240), the earliest Christian account to propose a naturalistic, euhemeristic explanation for the “sons of God:”

When men multiplied on the earth, the angels of heaven came together with the daughters of men. In some copies I found the sons of God. What is meant by the Spirit, in my opinion, is that the descendants of Seth are called the sons of God on account of the righteous men and patriarchs who have sprung from him, even down to the Saviour Himself; but that the descendants of Cain are named the seed of men, as having nothing divine in them, on account of the wickedness of their race and the inequality of their nature, being a mixed people, and having stirred the indignation of God. But if it is thought that these refer to angels, we must take them to be those who deal with magic and jugglery, who taught the women the motions of the stars and the knowledge of things celestial, by whose power they conceived the giants as their children, by whom wickedness came to its height on the earth, until God decreed that the whole race of the living should perish in their impiety by the deluge.

In stark contrast to Rabbi Simeon as well as to later Christians, Julius presents a euhemeristic interpretation (“sons of God” and “daughters of men” = descendants of Seth and Cain, respectively) without denouncing the angelic one. Furthermore, he clearly associates the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 with the Enochic version of the angelic descent: he assumes that this reading leads naturally to the view that the angels corrupted man with their teaching and birthed giants who led mankind further into depravity. Moreover, he sees the value of this exegesis in its usefulness for explaining, not only the deterioration of antediluvian ethics and morals, but also the origins of magic and astronomy.

The issue of the status of Enochic books also remains closely linked to the discussion about the proper exegesis of Genesis 6:1-4 and the place of the Enochic story of angelic descent within it. Tertullian’s appeal to the motif of illicit angelic instruction occasions his defense of the (singular) “book of Enoch.” (De cultu feminarum, 3.) Origen’s most sustained argument against the use of the (plural) “books titled ‘Enoch’” occurs in the context of his response to his opponent’s Celsus’ use of a “book of Enoch” that speaks of the fallen angels and, moreover, is followed by his endorsement of Philo’s allegorical reading of Genesis 6:1-4 (cf. Against Celsus 5.55). By the time that the bounds of the scriptural canon was being established, most learned Christians have already concluded that the “sons of God” were most likely not angels.
 
Sts. Augustine and Cyril of Alexandria invoke Aquila’s and Symmachus’ as support for their arguments that the “sons of God” are human beings and dismissing the “angels of God” reading in the Septuagint as a later interpolation. Even so, just as Athanasius still had to contend with the acceptance of Enochic literature among “common folk” (Epistle 39), so the abbot Serenus had to answer the “popular belief that angels taught men sinful practices and various arts” (Cassianus, Coll. 7.20). When Augustine argues against the idea that the “sons of God” were fallen angels, he is forced to explain why - even despite Jude’s use of Enochic writings - “prudent men” should not accept the “writings which are produced under his name … which contain fables about the Giants, saying that their fathers were not human beings” (City of God 15). When Jerome ridicules the idea that certain spirits took on human flesh to mingle with human women, he does not only dismiss it as a “Manichean” belief but at the same time also impugns the “apocryphal book” used to support it (Hom. Ps. 132).

As with Judaism, the eventual rejection of the shift in Christian exegesis reflects theological developments. Earlier Christians had already expressed discomfort with the idea of spirits commiting sexual acts with mortal women. This concern would have been heightened by the fact that anti-Christian authors like Celsus and Julian the Apostate used the then-popular angelic descent myth to denigrate the Incarnation and the virgin birth. Another notable element is the increasing importance laid on the fall of Adam and Eve in salvation history: it is around the same time we see the idea of angelic descent before the Flood declining that we begin to find the idea of the fall of rebel angels in the beginning of time developing. When Augustine argues against the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6 and Enochic literature, he does so in part to propose that NT references to wicked angels instead refer to Satan’s fall at the beginning of time (City of God 15.32).

Here we see a difference between Jewish and Christian views. The Jews had since developed and stressed the idea that angels are inherently incapable of sinning (which is rooted in the idea that men are superior to angels: the idea that they could not sin actually serves to make angels inferior to humans in that unlike us, they lack free will), which would of course make any idea of them ever falling or being cast out out of the question. Hence, there is no literal ‘Satan’ figure or demons in Rabbinic Judaism; instead, evil is viewed as an abstract inclination that exists in every person (yetzer hara).

Meanwhile, while Augustine did not reject the idea that angels could fall, what really troubled him is the notion that they sinned in the period preceding the Flood, rather than at Creation. Whereas some earlier Christians could accept that angels fell at more than one point in biblical history, Augustine asserts that this was a one-time event reversed by another one-time event, namely the coming of Christ. Augustine is able to neutralize the arguments of pagans who point to the Enochic myth of angelic descent to suggest the inconsistency between Christian beliefs about wayward “sons of God” coming to earth and their assumptions about the goodness and singularity of one particular Son of God, as well as contesting the Manichean view of angelic descent as a recurring pattern in history. In the process, he reinterprets NT references to the fallen angels, so as to deprive both the angelic intepretation of Genesis 6 and the Enochic myth of angelic descent of any basis in the words of Peter (1 Peter 2:4).
 
I just read from my unabridged copy of City of God, St. Augustine
discusses this for four pages. It’s Book XV, Chapter 23.
The true unabridged City of God is 900 pages of small type
in Hardcover. 1950 Random House.
 
I just read from my unabridged copy of City of God, St. Augustine
discusses this for four pages. It’s Book XV, Chapter 23.
The true unabridged City of God is 900 pages of small type
in Hardcover. 1950 Random House.
I don’t have my copy handy…could u briefly summarize the Saint’s conclusions ?
 
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