Never a dull moment with Cardinal Kasper!

[RomanRevert]

Here’s the latest:

The link is HERE

Strange words from Cardinal Kasper
More and more Anglicans and Episcopalians are joining the Catholic Church due to their churches’ increasingly liberal doctrine. While several American Episcopal bishops have become Catholic recently, and an entire diocese left the Episcopal Church to join a more conservative Anglican body, perhaps nothing tops the Traditional Anglican Communion, whose representatives – possibly representing up to 400,000 Anglicans – recently submitted papers to Rome, asking for “full, corporate sacramental union.”

Certainly such a request is cause for rejoicing. Never since the original split have so many Anglicans sought to return to the Church. According to a Catholic Online article, the pope is considering their request and brought the matter before the consistory of cardinals for discussion a few weeks ago. According to this article, the discussion was led by German Cardinal Walter Kasper, head of the Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

Now Cardinal Kasper’s recent interview with the British Catholic Herald has thrown ice on the matter. The first paragraph of the article reads:
One of the Vatican’s most senior cardinals has dismissed the idea that a breakaway group of Anglicans might be received into the Catholic Church en masse - despite Benedict XVI’s personal support for such a move. Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, told The Catholic Herald: "It’s not our policy to bring that many Anglicans to Rome."

The article continues:
The cardinal said on Monday: "We are on good terms with the Archbishop of Canterbury and as much as we can we are helping him to keep the Anglican community together.
"When asked whether he felt encouraged by the TAC’s request, the cardinal replied: "It’s not our policy to bring that many Anglicans to Rome and I am not sure there are so many as you are speaking about.
"He added: “Of course, as a Catholic I am happy if one person joins our Catholic Church but I doubt such a big group is coming - I think there are still many questions to solve first.”

Exactly where did this ice water come from??? Exactly how many Anglicans would Cardinal Kasper allow to become Catholic??? Why is the cardinal against Anglicans becoming Catholic???

I understand that it’s not so simple as saying Cardinal Kasper doesn’t want Anglicans to become Catholic. I think he and other professional ecumenists would like an entire denomination to grow towards a stronger sense of self-identity, and gradually to come closer to recognizing the Catholic Church as its spiritual home. But I can’t see how a professional ecumenist like Cardinal Kasper can fail to recognize that the Anglican Communion isn’t held together as a “church” like the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Communion under Canterbury lacks essential elements of apostolic succession and valid sacraments, and Anglicanisms sharp drift into modernism is a sure reflection of this fact.

To prevent an en masse conversion is to fail to throw a life preserver to faithful who are drowning spiritually. Giving these Anglicans the cold shoulder in a very real sense constitutes dereliction of duty. The Catholic Herald article indicates that the CDF, not Cardinal Kasper’s Council, is working with these Anglicans – something I am grateful for. But I am left with a bad feeling by the fact Cardinal Kasper addressed the Consistory regarding this matter.

+++++++++++++++++

Thoughts on this? Personally, though I am not surprised by his opinion, I **am **surprised that he is still in the position that he is. Fortunately, the Anglicans bypassed Kasper’s buffoonery and went directly to the CDF. Can anyone shed some light on why this guy is still in charge of ecumenism since he can’t seem to grasp what the goal of true ecumenism is?

 

[markadm]

I had very similar thoughts at the time.

My reaction at the time was this:

I’m dissatisfied by the message this is giving–and my apologies to His Eminence if this is a result of the Herald’s reporting…

Cardinal Walter Kasper told the Catholic Herald “It’s not our policy to bring that many Anglicans to Rome”. He is referring to the breakaway Anglican group, the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). Now this group has not recently broken with Canterbury (the Anglican Communion); no, that break was in 1977.

The TAC petitioned Rome last month for “full, corporate and sacramental union”. I realise that in terms of an ecumenical dialogue, it is most likely not the intention of the Catholic Church to go “poaching” other Christians (though, I must admit I do not actually know…). However, in this case I still ask “why not? Why isn’t it the Church’s ‘policy to bring that many Anglicans to Rome’?”. After all, they want it.

Cardinal Kasper is then reported to have said “We are on good terms with the Archbishop of Canterbury and as much as we can we are helping to keep the Anglican community together”. Again, a laudable intent if this were a recent break, but with the two groups – i.e. the TAC and Canterbury – not in communion with each other, I would see it as questionable. In terms of ecclesial communion, whether Catholic or Anglican, do they form an “Anglican community” with each other anymore? After all, the TAC bishops signed the Catechism on their altar.

It’s highly likely I’ve misunderstood all of this, but if not, then I for one respectfully disagree with His Eminence. According to the Catholic Herald, the CDF and even the Holy Father do. Hrmmm…

 

[belgianwaffles9]

i think what he was getting at is that anglicanism doesnt have valid apostolic succession and/or holy orders, which makes it hard for them to convert en masse.

they could all convert individually, but its never before been legal for an entire group to unify with the church without having valid apostolic succession and holy orders.

 

[markadm]

they could all convert individually, but its never before been legal for an entire group to unify with the church without having valid apostolic succession and holy orders.

belgianwaffles9, I simply do not understand your comments. What about, for example, the “Anglican Use” Parishes received en-masse into the Church under John Paul II’s “Pastoral Provision”.

I do not believe this what Kasper is getting at. Rather it is my opinion he is mistakenly trying to not offend Canterbury in an instance when Canterbury would, quote simply, not be offended!

 

[BritishCatholic]

First of all, being British, I just want to say that I greatly respect the Church of England. Despite its many faults, the Church of England is a beautiful institution which the British Monarchs have taken good care of over the centuries.

However, the Anglican Communion is a different story. You all know this: It’s a mess. They’re all running around like decapatated chickens. Ever since the 1970’s, when the Episcopal Church decided to ordain women, the Anglican Communion at large began to fall apart.

The Archbishop of Canturbury, Rowan Williams, is an honorable man but lacks strong leadership. His so called “communal churches” are leaving Canturbury one by one. His Grace knows this. He knows that with every passing year the Anglican Communion is failing.

So, with that said, I say we should definitely welcome those “Traditional Anglicans” into the Roman Catholic Church. Like someone stated above me, they have already temporally and spiritually separated themselves from the See of Canturbury. Dr. Williams must accept that these so-called “Anglicans” want the pope as their spiritual leader, not him.

I truly do think the only reason why Cardinal Kasper is so reluctant is because Rome has tried so hard over the past 40 years to reconcile Rome and Canturbury. But His Eminence, and the Holy Father, must recognize this undeniable truth: Canturbury was once Catholic. But, because some certain king couldn’t keep his you-know-what in his pants, it became Anglican. Canturbury must become Catholic once more.

How glad I shall be when the monarch of Great Britain is once again Roman Catholic…O St. Augustine and St. George, pray for England!!!

 

[TNT]

I wonder if Cardinal Kasper was voted as next pope, what multiplier there would be in the number of Sedevacantists.

And, Cd Mahony as his Secretary or the new head of the CNDF.

 

[bkovacs]

First of all, being British, I just want to say that I greatly respect the Church of England. Despite its many faults, the Church of England is a beautiful institution which the British Monarchs have taken good care of over the centuries.

However, the Anglican Communion is a different story. You all know this: It’s a mess. They’re all running around like decapatated chickens. Ever since the 1970’s, when the Episcopal Church decided to ordain women, the Anglican Communion at large began to fall apart.

The Archbishop of Canturbury, Rowan Williams, is an honorable man but lacks strong leadership. His so called “communal churches” are leaving Canturbury one by one. His Grace knows this. He knows that with every passing year the Anglican Communion is failing.

So, with that said, I say we should definitely welcome those “Traditional Anglicans” into the Roman Catholic Church. Like someone stated above me, they have already temporally and spiritually separated themselves from the See of Canturbury. Dr. Williams must accept that these so-called “Anglicans” want the pope as their spiritual leader, not him.

I truly do think the only reason why Cardinal Kasper is so reluctant is because Rome has tried so hard over the past 40 years to reconcile Rome and Canturbury. But His Eminence, and the Holy Father, must recognize this undeniable truth: Canturbury was once Catholic. But, because some certain king couldn’t keep his you-know-what in his pants, it became Anglican. Canturbury must become Catholic once more.

How glad I shall be when the monarch of Great Britain is once again Roman Catholic…O St. Augustine and St. George, pray for England!!!

Cantebury and York!!. Would be great to see a Cardinal Archbishop of Cantebury and Cardinal Archbishop of York again. But without the liberal mindset!. Both conservative Archbishops. A TLM Mass in Cantebury and York Cathederal, would be Heaven on Earth!.

 

[BritishCatholic]

Cantebury and York!!. Would be great to see a Cardinal Archbishop of Cantebury and Cardinal Archbishop of York again. But without the liberal mindset!. Both conservative Archbishops. A TLM Mass in Cantebury and York Cathederal, would be Heaven on Earth!.

All too true.

Next stop, Westminster Abbey…

 

[stmaria]

Cardinal Kasper needs to go. On one hand he states that ecumenism is binding and the work of the Holy Spirit and on the other hand he states that ecumenism in the sense of “conversion” to the Catholic faith has been abandoned.
The Church has always taught that “true ecumenism” is the work of the Holy Spirit and requires a “return” to the Catholic Church. Kasper now says “conversion” to Christ is all that is required not a “return”.
Seems to me that what Cardinal Kasper is advocating is “false ecumenism”. Am I misreading him? Just what exactly does Kasper believe?

Council clearly makes ecumenism binding as the work of the Spirit
Cardinal Walter Kasper ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCU40UR.HTM

"At times, the difficulties and the misunderstandings lead people to regard the ecumenical movement with mistrust. Doubt is then often cast on the theologically binding character of the Conciliar Decree* Unitatis Redintegratio*…We should, of course, ask ourselves what does “tradition” mean in the theological sense, and in so doing, it is necessary to distinguish between the one Tradition and the many traditions.12 The ecumenical openness of the Second Vatican Council is not a break with Tradition in the theological sense of the word; but it is certainly an intentional modification of individual traditions, for the most part relatively recent….Thus, it is indisputable that the Council consciously went beyond the defensive and prohibitive assertions of Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos (1928) and, in this sense, made a qualitative leap.13 Understood in this way, tradition and innovation are not in opposition.”

Cardinal Walter Kasper:
“… today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being Catholics. This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.”

I wonder if his reluctance to admit the Anglicans with open arms has anything to do with fear. Here is a link to an Anglican-use Catholic Church. It is a beautiful Church with a very Traditional Catholic looking sanctuary. I wonder if Kasper fears that Catholics may be drawn away from the New Mass and embrace this Anglican-use Mass. It may give some Catholics another option. Those that want to get away from the simple, banal looking sanctuary of the Novus Ordo Churches might feel more at home at the Anglican-use Churches.
Anglican-use Catholic Church
atonementonline.com/intro.php

 

[BritishCatholic]

I wonder if his reluctance to admit the Anglicans with open arms has anything to do with fear. Here is a link to an Anglican-use Catholic Church. It is a beautiful Church with a very Traditional Catholic looking sanctuary. I wonder if Kasper fears that Catholics may be drawn away from the New Mass and embrace this Anglican-use Mass. It may give some Catholics another option. Those that want to get away from the simple, banal looking sanctuary of the Novus Ordo Churches might feel more at home at the Anglican-use Churches.
Anglican-use Catholic Church
atonementonline.com/intro.php

It’s funny that you should mention this. Ever since I was a little boy, for some odd reason I have been fascinated, and even drawn to, the Church of England. Though being primarily raised in the U.S., I was born in England(though I don’t remember any of it) and have always been proud of my british heritage. I remember looking into the Episcopal Church, but I didn’t care for it. It was always the Anglican Church that caught my eye.

Nonetheless, despite my keen taking to of the Anglican Church, I am a staunch Roman Catholic for many reasons. However, I must say, if ever in the future the Church of England and the Church of Rome were to unite, I would be the happiest man on earth.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Personally, I think much of what Cardinal Kaspar and the whole modern ecumenist movement (at least the outer nonsense that gets attention in the media) says is nonsense.

Rome should have reservations about the traditional Anglicans wanting to join-but we (in the person of a Prince of the Church) should not say stupid things in the tone of “We don’t want to offend the ‘Archbishop’ of Canterbury” or “It isn’t our policy to bring people into the Church in numbers like this” as this implies a heterodox notion of ecumenism-we are just one of many Churches, none of which really has the truth, dialoging and searching for the truth together and walking together towards Christ. We should be exited about this situation-but we (of course) need to be realistic with the issue of Anglican invalid orders among other things. Thus, there are more problems that having an Orthodox Church come back to Rome and there is more to work out but the tone should (and I bet is with the Pope) be very hopeful and joyful! Prodical sons want to come back to the Father’s house! Why in the world should we throw cold water on them for stupid, PC reasons? I would bet that the obvious trend back towards tradition within the Church was a major encouragment for the TAC to take the stop they did. They know there is a Pope in Rome (certainly no offense to JP II, I’m sure he’d be supportive) and Curial officials who would be really willing to work with them and curtail the machinations of the modernists.

True ecumenism is bringing people to Rome-that is it. Mortalium Animos outlines orthodox ecumenism. This feel-good, “let’s not offend our separated brothers and sisters” hippie B.S. has got to go!

 

[BritishCatholic]

Rome should have reservations about the traditional Anglicans wanting to join-but we (in the person of a Prince of the Church) should not say stupid things in the tone of “We don’t want to offend the ‘Archbishop’ of Canterbury” or “It isn’t our policy to bring people into the Church in numbers like this” as this implies a heterodox notion of ecumenism-we are just one of many Churches, none of which really has the truth, dialoging and searching for the truth together and walking together towards Christ. We should be exited about this situation-but we (of course) need to be realistic with the issue of Anglican invalid orders among other things. Thus, there are more problems that having an Orthodox Church come back to Rome and there is more to work out but the tone should (and I bet is with the Pope) be very hopeful and joyful! Prodical sons want to come back to the Father’s house! Why in the world should we throw cold water on them for stupid, PC reasons? I would bet that the obvious trend back towards tradition within the Church was a major encouragment for the TAC to take the stop they did. They know there is a Pope in Rome (certainly no offense to JP II, I’m sure he’d be supportive) and Curial officials who would be really willing to work with them and curtail the machinations of the modernists.

Saying that Holy Mother Church does not have the truth about Christ is a bit liberal. If I were you, I’d refrain from saying such things in a “Traditional” Catholic thread.

 

[surgei]

belgianwaffles9, I simply do not understand your comments. What about, for example, the “Anglican Use” Parishes received en-masse into the Church under John Paul II’s “Pastoral Provision”.

I do not believe this what Kasper is getting at. Rather it is my opinion he is mistakenly trying to not offend Canterbury in an instance when Canterbury would, quote simply, not be offended!

Anglican use priests are consecrated by Catholic Bishops before beginning their mass.

 

[surgei]

First of all, being British, I just want to say that I greatly respect the Church of England. Despite its many faults, the Church of England is a beautiful institution which the British Monarchs have taken good care of over the centuries.

However, the Anglican Communion is a different story. You all know this: It’s a mess. They’re all running around like decapatated chickens. Ever since the 1970’s, when the Episcopal Church decided to ordain women, the Anglican Communion at large began to fall apart.

The Archbishop of Canturbury, Rowan Williams, is an honorable man but lacks strong leadership. His so called “communal churches” are leaving Canturbury one by one. His Grace knows this. He knows that with every passing year the Anglican Communion is failing.

So, with that said, I say we should definitely welcome those “Traditional Anglicans” into the Roman Catholic Church. Like someone stated above me, they have already temporally and spiritually separated themselves from the See of Canturbury. Dr. Williams must accept that these so-called “Anglicans” want the pope as their spiritual leader, not him.

I truly do think the only reason why Cardinal Kasper is so reluctant is because Rome has tried so hard over the past 40 years to reconcile Rome and Canturbury. But His Eminence, and the Holy Father, must recognize this undeniable truth: Canturbury was once Catholic. But, because some certain king couldn’t keep his you-know-what in his pants, it became Anglican. Canturbury must become Catholic once more.

How glad I shall be when the monarch of Great Britain is once again Roman Catholic…O St. Augustine and St. George, pray for England!!!

Ey what of Bead and oh say Thomas Moore.

 

[markadm]

Anglican use priests are consecrated by Catholic Bishops before beginning their mass.

I know!
(Don’t you mean ordained, though?)

 

[francesco920]

Saying that Holy Mother Church does not have the truth about Christ is a bit liberal. If I were you, I’d refrain from saying such things in a “Traditional” Catholic thread.

Read his post again. He wasn’t making the claim himself; he was saying that’s what the “heterodox notion of ecumenism” leads to.

 

[surgei]

I know!
(Don’t you mean ordained, though?)

NOPE
The point is that the Anglicans do not have valid sacraments. As such perhaps what the good cardinal is bauking at is the practical issue of having to consecrate all of these men to God. Who will do it? When?

 

[stmaria]

NOPE
The point is that the Anglicans do not have valid sacraments. As such perhaps what the good cardinal is bauking at is the practical issue of having to consecrate all of these men to God. Who will do it? When?

How about doing it in one large ceremony at St Peters? Surely if the Church can accomodate all the religions of the world, including false religions, at Assisi then the Church can find a way to bring all of the Anglican priests to Rome.It would be a beautiful and powerful event.

 

[surgei]

How about doing it in one large ceremony at St Peters? Surely if the Church can accomodate all the religions of the world, including false religions, at Assisi then the Church can find a way to bring all of the Anglican priests to Rome.It would be a beautiful and powerful event.

What of the problem that many of them do not see a need for a valid consecration? I think this is a lot deaper than anyone knows.
BTW what will hapen to the group that is charismatic? It would be good if one of my Navy friends and his wifer were accepted and consecrated. Dude, I would consider using the canon on comuning Orthodox with him.

 

[markadm]

What of the problem that many of them do not see a need for a valid consecration? I think this is a lot deaper than anyone knows.

I’m sorry but I consider this to be quite a scurrilous objection. These men have publicly assented to the teachings of the Church as expounded in the Catechism. You really think they’d think they don’t need to be ordained?

Take it from a convert: the yearning becomes such that you will do anything the Church demands.