Never ending torture in hell

[agnes_therese]

Anyways Hi CL

Does the Pope suggest the separation form God is temporary ? Does he suggest that separation from God is pleasant, and is there anything pleasant outside of God or where God’s love is not ? Was Jesus wrong in depicting the rich man and Lazarus or in his description of gehenna where things never die ?

I don’t believe the OP was questioning the eternal nature of Hell, but whether it’s constant torture of the type “favored” by some evangelicals. Certainly, eternal separation from God would mean eternal suffering, but of a different type than, for example, that depicted in a Bosch painting.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Poena damni (Pain of Loss)

The poena damni, or pain of loss, consists in the loss of the beatific vision and in so complete a separation of all the powers of the soul from God that it cannot find in Him even the least peace and rest. It is accompanied by the loss of all supernatural gifts, e.g. the loss of faith. The characters impressed by the sacraments alone remain to the greater confusion of the bearer. The pain of loss is not the mere absence of superior bliss, but it is also a most intense positive pain. The utter void of the soul made for the enjoyment of infinite truth and infinite goodness causes the reprobate immeasurable anguish. Their consciousness that God, on Whom they entirely depend, is their enemy forever is overwhelming. Their consciousness of having by their own deliberate folly forfeited the highest blessings for transitory and delusive pleasures humiliates and depresses them beyond measure. The desire for happiness inherent in their very nature, wholly unsatisfied and no longer able to find any compensation for the loss of God in delusive pleasure, renders them utterly miserable. Moreover, they are well aware that God is infinitely happy, and hence their hatred and their impotent desire to injure Him fills them with extreme bitterness. And the same is true with regard to their hatred of all the friends of God who enjoy the bliss of heaven. The pain of loss is the very core of eternal punishment. If the damned beheld God face to face, hell itself, notwithstanding its fire, would be a kind of heaven. Had they but some union with God even if not precisely the union of the beatific vision, hell would no longer be hell, but a kind of purgatory. And yet the pain of loss is but the natural consequence of that aversion from God which lies in the nature of every mortal sin.

Poena sensus (Pain of the Senses)

The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned in the Holy Bible. According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct. However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion. Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation.** Nevertheless, Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor.** It is urged: How can a material fire torment demons, or human souls before the resurrection of the body? But, if our soul is so joined to the body as to be keenly sensitive to the pain of fire, why should the omnipotent God be unable to bind even pure spirits to some material substance in such a manner that they suffer a torment more or less similar to the pain of fire which the soul can feel on earth? The reply indicates, as far as possible, how we may form an idea of the pain of fire which the demons suffer. Theologians have elaborated various theories on this subject, which, however, we do not wish to detail here (cf. the very minute study by Franz Schmid, “Quaestiones selectae ex theol. dogm.”, Paderborn, 1891, q. iii; also Guthberlet, “Die poena sensus” in “Katholik”, II, 1901, 305 sqq., 385 sqq.).

It is quite superfluous to add that the nature of hell-fire is different from that of our ordinary fire; for instance, it continues to burn without the need of a continually renewed supply of fuel. How are we to form a conception of that fire in detail remains quite undetermined; we merely know that it is corporeal. The demons suffer the torment of fire, even when, by Divine permission, they leave the confines of hell and roam about on earth. In what manner this happens is uncertain. We may assume that they remain fettered inseparably to a portion of that fire.

The pain of sense is the natural consequence of that inordinate turning to creatures which is involved in every mortal sin. It is meet that whoever seeks forbidden pleasure should find pain in return. (Cf. Heuse, “Das Feuer der Hölle” in “Katholik”, II, 1878, 225 sqq., 337 sqq., 486 sqq., 581 sqq.; “Etudes religieuses”, L, 1890, II, 309, report of an answer of the Poenitentiaria, 30 April, 1890; Knabenbauer, “In Matth., xxv, 41”.)

Accidental Pains of the Damned

According to theologians the pain of loss and the pain of sense constitute the very essence of hell, the former being by far the most dreadful part of eternal punishment. But the damned also suffer various “accidental” punishments.
•Just as the blessed in heaven are free from all pain, so, on the other hand, the damned never experience even the least real pleasure. In hell separation from the blissful influence of Divine love has reached its consummation.
•The reprobate must live in the midst of the damned; and their outbursts of hatred or of reproach as they gloat over his sufferings, and their hideous presence, are an ever fresh source of torment.
•The reunion of soul and body after the Resurrection will be a special punishment for the reprobate, although there will be no essential change in the pain of sense which they are already suffering.

Source: Catholic Encyclopedia, bolding mine

 

[dronald]

I don’t believe the OP was questioning the eternal nature of Hell, but whether it’s constant torture of the type “favored” by some evangelicals. Certainly, eternal separation from God would mean eternal suffering, but of a different type than, for example, that depicted in a Bosch painting.

Well if that’s what the OP really meant, then I think Catholics and Evangelicals would come pretty close in agreement.

Oh, and let us not forget what Jesus actually said, and what Revelation says. Let us not pretend that because Evangelicals take their Bible’s very literally that they’re somehow misguided. All we’re doing is saying “Well it’s right there in your Bibles.”

I think the OP is way off base here with his first post. Catholics have a very long history of teaching eternal suffering; in fact they were far less inclusive of non-Catholics until more recently.

 

[Memaw]

Does anyone really say God tortures people in hell ? I do not even see that in rich man and Lazarus. That they are suffering yes, but do folks say God is doing it ?

My take on it is this.The more important and crucial saving someone is, the more important and crucial is the saving act (Calvary). The bigger the crime, the bigger the consequence and the bigger price for justice. You want to lessen the consequence ? Ok, that lessens the crime, and lessens the price needed to get out of it.

The bigger the dignity and nature of God and man, the bigger the consequence for sinning against those natures. Lessening the consequence lessens the dignity of those sinned against.

God doesn’t torture people in Hell. Satan is doing that. They are there because of their own choosing. The Catholic Church still teaches that Hell is Eternal and those there suffer forever. Mt. 25-46, 2 Thess. 1- 6-9 So I wouldn’t brush it aside carelessly. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Stilldreamn]

The wheat and the tares grow together in the fields, each receiving water and light the same, not because either deserve it, but because God wills it. His grace and mercy are abundantly experienced on earth by all, Christian or not. The tares don’t imagine what it would be like when that Light and Love is no longer available to them, indeed they don’t acknowledge the Source - until they no longer have it.

I think Hell is the complete absence of God’s Love and Grace.

 

[captainrick]

I was Methodist. We, at least everyone I ever knew, also abandoned the hellfire and torture viewpoint long ago, as did most Catholics I met.

It’s always a mistake to confuse evangelicals with mainstream Protestants. As a Methodist I always felt we were much more similar to Catholics than to evangelicals.

 

[R_H_Benson]

I was Methodist. We, at least everyone I ever knew, also abandoned the hellfire and torture viewpoint long ago, as did Catholics.
.

When, exactly, did Catholics “abandon” this view?

 

[captainrick]

When, exactly, did Catholics “abandon” this view?

Not all Catholics.

 

[Memaw]

Not all Catholics.

I go by what the Catholic Church teaches, not by what “other” Catholics or Christians do or think. God Bless, memaw

 

[vegascity]

From St. Faustina’s Diary recorded in entry 741:

Today, I was led by an angel to the chasm of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures that I saw; the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it — a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness, and a terrible, suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devil and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and of their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of their sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.

 

[Richard_White]

The Church has not changed her teaching on the eternal punishment of hell. We choose to go there when we refuse to accept God’s love, or His Mercy. It’s our own choice. While there is always some debate over what the actual punishments might be (even though Jesus calls it “the pool of fire”), the fact remains that hell is eternal. After the resurrection and Final Judgement of all souls at the Second Coming of Christ, those who freely choose to go there will suffer in body and soul, for all eternity.

From the Catechism:1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 **Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.**614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, **“eternal fire.”**617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619​

Yes, this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church and no can deny it Truth, as revealed by God Himself.

May God bless you abundantly and forever!

 

[johnnyc176]

Well the CCC says ‘punishments’. The chief punishment is separation from God but it also alludes to eternal fire.

1035 Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God

So like a lot of other things in Catholicism perhaps it is both/and. Fire is used as the means to purify us in Purgatory so it’s not too far off to think of an eternal fire that never purifies.

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

 

[lilypadrees]

When my mother and I first moved here, I had never heard of “Protestants.” Because I wanted to continue learning about Jesus, I chose to go to these churches while my mother tried to locate the nearest Catholic Church for us to attend. My mother, a lifelong Protestant until she converted and became Catholic, always said that “Church is church.” After many years away from Protestant churches (because she’d been taking me to the Catholic Church for Mass), she went to a couple of them and found out differently.

I was appalled at the way they preached and taught. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit got me away from those churches and led me back to the Catholic Church.

The various Protestant denominations, with a few exceptions, all teach the “Hellfire and Brimstone” in each sermon. Their Jesus, according to their pastors, only loves their denomination and specifically those in that particular church. Everyone else whether they’re Catholic or Protestant (those who aren’t that particular denomination and who therefore aren’t members of that particular church) are going to burn in Hell for eternity because Jesus sends them there. In fact, He loves doing that esp to Catholics.

I don’t know why they teach this way since we all know that Jesus is loving and forgiving. He is Mercy.

I have often been told by Protestants that Catholics believe in a different Jesus. In the past, I’ve told them that we believe in the same Jesus they do. But in a way, they’re right. Our Jesus is Love personified. He doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell.

I pray every person meets and comes to have a lasting relationship with our loving Brother, Jesus.

 

[johnnyc176]

I was appalled at the way they preached and taught. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit got me away from those churches and led me back to the Catholic Church.

The various Protestant denominations, with a few exceptions, all teach the “Hellfire and Brimstone” in each sermon. Their Jesus, according to their pastors, only loves their denomination and specifically those in that particular church. Everyone else whether they’re Catholic or Protestant (those who aren’t that particular denomination and who therefore aren’t members of that particular church) are going to burn in Hell for eternity because Jesus sends them there. In fact, He loves doing that esp to Catholics.

I don’t know why they teach this way since we all know that Jesus is loving and forgiving. He is Mercy.

I have often been told by Protestants that Catholics believe in a different Jesus. In the past, I’ve told them that we believe in the same Jesus they do. But in a way, they’re right. Our Jesus is Love personified. He doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell.

.

Yes as Fr. Mitch Pacwa says…we are not in management, we are in sales.

But this is not what the thread is really about. It seems to have evolved into the question of what Jesus Christ and His Church actually teach about hell.

 

[CLearthinking04]

God doesn’t torture people in Hell. Satan is doing that. They are there because of their own choosing. The Catholic Church still teaches that Hell is Eternal and those there suffer forever. Mt. 25-46, 2 Thess. 1- 6-9 So I wouldn’t brush it aside carelessly. God Bless, Memaw

Either way eternal torture is still eternal torture. Do you really believe God would send one of his created beings there knowing that they will be tortured forever. Do you realize that act makes Adolf Hitler look like a boy scout and the Holocaust look like a walk in the park? What about a person’s loved ones, family etc. Would you be OK living in heaven having it made when a loved one that wasn’t very religious was being tortured for all eternity? This line of reasoning ascribes to God attributes that are totally out of character for Jesus. We as human beings cannot be more ethical than God.

BTW 2Thess 1-6-9 is for everlasting destruction and when combined with the totality of scripture means death or second death, not eternal torture.

CT

 

[CLearthinking04]

The wheat and the tares grow together in the fields, each receiving water and light the same, not because either deserve it, but because God wills it. His grace and mercy are abundantly experienced on earth by all, Christian or not. The tares don’t imagine what it would be like when that Light and Love is no longer available to them, indeed they don’t acknowledge the Source - until they no longer have it.

I think Hell is the complete absence of God’s Love and Grace.

I tend to agree. However there are many verses that signify death or second death. I think it may be either of the two but certainty not an eternal hot torture chamber a kin to Dante’s inferno.
CT

 

[CLearthinking04]

From St. Faustina’s Diary recorded in entry 741:

Today, I was led by an angel to the chasm of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures that I saw; the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it — a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness, and a terrible, suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devil and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and of their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of their sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.

Just curious - Do the writings of St. Faustina have the same weight as Scripture to you? I am not trying to be contrary but trying to lean more about other people’s beliefs. Thnx

 

[CLearthinking04]

Yes, this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church and no can deny it Truth, as revealed by God Himself.

May God bless you abundantly and forever!

Cool! (no pun intended) I would prefer this version of Hell that you quote because it demonstrates the most ethical view of God when compared to all the other versions of hell, especially eternal torture by fire.

 

[Brendan]

Either way eternal torture is still eternal torture. Do you really believe God would send one of his created beings there knowing that they will be tortured forever.

God does not send them there, the choose it themselves in their rejection of God.

God gave us free will, and, by definition, it means that there is a free choice, and those choices do have repercussions, either positive or negative.

 

[Brendan]

Cool! (no pun intended) I would prefer this version of Hell that you quote because it demonstrates the most ethical view of God when compared to all the other versions of hell, especially eternal torture by fire.

Does it mean that the suffering is somehow less intense, or not eternal?