Never ending torture in hell

[Richard_White]

Cool! (no pun intended) I would prefer this version of Hell that you quote because it demonstrates the most ethical view of God when compared to all the other versions of hell, especially eternal torture by fire.

I don’t know what you think I said to make you think that I agree with you in any way, because I absolutely do not. I simply quoted Telstar’s post from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which shows that Hell is an eternal separation from God that is described as “eternal fire.” Please re-read Telstar’s post to see where I am coming from, because what the Catechism teaches is the official teaching of the Catholic Church, as reviled by God Himself. For Jesus actually said, in regard to the wicked, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

May God, the Blessed Trinity, always enlighten you!

 

[johnnyc176]

Just curious - Do the writings of St. Faustina have the same weight as Scripture to you? I am not trying to be contrary but trying to lean more about other people’s beliefs. Thnx

St. Faustina was canonized by the Catholic Church while St. John Paul II (who you quoted earlier) was Pope.

 

[clem456]

Was the rich man and Lazarus a parable ?

Why does it matter if the story is a parable or is factually “true”. The story is told by Truth himself.

 

[jaimeleglise]

I believe hell really exists. It is a place of eternal despair and torture. The sufferings in hell
are mental, spirtual,emotional including separation from God, regrets, hateful feelings.
Also, the torture is physical like a fire.

God does not send people there. Those who refuse to repent, believe and die in their mortal sins send themselves there.

 

[Memaw]

Either way eternal torture is still eternal torture. Do you really believe God would send one of his created beings there knowing that they will be tortured forever. Do you realize that act makes Adolf Hitler look like a boy scout and the Holocaust look like a walk in the park? What about a person’s loved ones, family etc. Would you be OK living in heaven having it made when a loved one that wasn’t very religious was being tortured for all eternity? This line of reasoning ascribes to God attributes that are totally out of character for Jesus. We as human beings cannot be more ethical than God.

BTW 2Thess 1-6-9 is for everlasting destruction and when combined with the totality of scripture means death or second death, not eternal torture.

CT

God doesn’t “send” anyone to Hell. He sent His Son to die for us just so we could be saved from Hell. But He did give us a free will and so “we” choose where we spend Eternity, NOT God. Eternity without GOD will be Hell. Seems we love to “blame” everything we don’t agree with on GOD. If it doesn’t go our way, we blame it on God. Are we ever THANKFUl for what HE has done for us? God Bless, Memaw

 

[jlhargus]

Well if that’s what the OP really meant, then I think Catholics and Evangelicals would come pretty close in agreement.

Oh, and let us not forget what Jesus actually said, and what Revelation says. Let us not pretend that because Evangelicals take their Bible’s very literally that they’re somehow misguided. All we’re doing is saying “Well it’s right there in your Bibles.”

I think the OP is way off base here with his first post. Catholics have a very long history of teaching eternal suffering; in fact they were far less inclusive of non-Catholics until more recently.

I would agree with you on the OP. Also I don’t think anyone can go wrong teaching hell using the terms the bible uses to describes it. Even if the terms are metaphors.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I do not think the Catholic Church has ever changed its teaching (if that were even possible!) on eternal hell. The belief in hell has always been consistent with the teaching of the Church. I am astounded by the Catholics in this thread who seem to think that hell is a metaphor or not a real place. Kudos to those who have defended and explained authentic Church teaching on the subject (Richard White, R_H_Benson, Telstar and others).

 

[jlhargus]

I do not think the Catholic Church has ever changed its teaching (if that were even possible!) on eternal hell. The belief in hell has always been consistent with the teaching of the Church. I am astounded by the Catholics in this thread who seem to think that hell is a metaphor or not a real place. Kudos to those who have defended and explained authentic Church teaching on the subject (Richard White, R_H_Benson, Telstar and others).

I agree one hundred percent. I think they are using theological speculation as teaching. Using fire to describe hell can’t be understood as a pleasant place to be.

 

[Telstar]

Either way eternal torture is still eternal torture. Do you really believe God would send one of his created beings there knowing that they will be tortured forever. Do you realize that act makes Adolf Hitler look like a boy scout and the Holocaust look like a walk in the park?

Are you saying that God is unjust in His Judgements? So, you think it’s wrong for God to create a suitable place of punishment for people like Hitler to go, who hate God and all mankind? Who also torture and murder thousands of people? Do you really believe they should go to Heaven, instead? Is it just because it’s not a very “happy thought” for you to picture them burning in Hell for all eternity? You do realize that they choose to go to Hell and suffer it’s torments because they HATE God and never want to be anywhere near Him, right?

What about a person’s loved ones, family etc. Would you be OK living in heaven having it made when a loved one that wasn’t very religious was being tortured for all eternity? This line of reasoning ascribes to God attributes that are totally out of character for Jesus. We as human beings cannot be more ethical than God.

Who are you to call God’s character and Justice into question? You’re the one that’s attaching your own ideas about what you think God would or wouldn’t do according to your own preconceived notions. Have you ever read Job?

When we die we will become more fully aware of God’s Plan of Salvation, and will understand His Mercy, as well as His Justice, better than we do, now. Then, we’ll know for sure why our poor loved ones chose to go to Hell, and we’ll be at peace knowing it. God’s Justice is perfect, so the punishment always fits the crime. Some souls will suffer much more in Hell than others, depending on the gravity and number of their sins. They only get whatever they truly deserve as individuals.

BTW 2Thess 1-6-9 is for everlasting destruction and when combined with the totality of scripture means death or second death, not eternal torture.

I tend to agree. However there are many verses that signify death or second death. I think it may be either of the two but certainty not an eternal hot torture chamber a kin to Dante’s inferno.

“Apocalypse 20: [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.”

Just curious - Do the writings of St. Faustina have the same weight as Scripture to you? I am not trying to be contrary but trying to lean more about other people’s beliefs. Thnx

God has called on many great Saints to give warnings to the living, like the prophets did in the OT, to help us understand His spiritual truths. We are certainly free to choose whether to believe them or not. But, if we choose to ignore them, it could be detrimental to our own salvation.

Cool! (no pun intended) I would prefer this version of Hell that you quote because it demonstrates the most ethical view of God when compared to all the other versions of hell, especially eternal torture by fire.

This Catholic “version of Hell” speaks about separation from God, as well as the soul’s eternal punishment in the fires of hell. You might want to reread it.

I don’t know what you think I said to make you think that I agree with you in any way, because I absolutely do not. I simply quoted Telstar’s post from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which shows that Hell is an eternal separation from God that is described as “eternal fire.” Please re-read Telstar’s post to see where I am coming from, because what the Catechism teaches is the official teaching of the Catholic Church, as reviled by God Himself. For Jesus actually said, in regard to the wicked, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

Exactly. Thank you. It would seem that someone is not really thinking clearly, if they believe the Church has ever changed her teaching on Hell, either about its nature or its duration.

 

[Telstar]

I do not think the Catholic Church has ever changed its teaching (if that were even possible!) on eternal hell. The belief in hell has always been consistent with the teaching of the Church. I am astounded by the Catholics in this thread who seem to think that hell is a metaphor or not a real place. Kudos to those who have defended and explained authentic Church teaching on the subject (Richard White, R_H_Benson, Telstar and others).

I agree one hundred percent. I think they are using theological speculation as teaching. Using fire to describe hell can’t be understood as a pleasant place to be.

Thank you, both. I think a lot of Christians, unfortunately including many Catholics, seem to want to ignore the fact that Hell is a real place of eternal damnation with all of its appropriate pains and torments, including a very real spiritual fire. Maybe it’s because it helps them to sleep a little easier at night, when their conscience tells them that they are living a life that is opposed to what Jesus taught, or when they see it in the lives of their loved ones.

No one wants to believe that they or their loved ones could end up in Hell, but it is a very real possibility for all of us. The best thing we can do to avoid it, is to truly live a good Christian life, and pray for God to have Mercy on all of us when we slip and fall. It also wouldn’t hurt to do a little extra voluntary fasting and penance for ourselves, as well as for others that we love, in order to keep that from ever happening.

 

[captainrick]

I go by what the Catholic Church teaches, not by what “other” Catholics or Christians do or think. God Bless, memaw

And that’s what we should all do! Unfortunately, many do not these days,

 

[Techno2000]

I just completed a study on the different views of hell and I am mystified on how evangelicals and protestants believe that God tortures people forever in fire. Catholic teaching seems to have abandoned this long ago in favor of a more rational and educated assessment of scripture on this subject. I looked up many of the most popular TV evangelists and religious groups and most all have this view. Some are very educated people with a large following and I just find it hard to believe how anyone can support such a barbaric and sadistic teaching. Many of them are good people that seem to be honest in their position and don’t seem to be looking just to strike fear and control their flock. My question is since if they are sincere in this belief why doesn’t the Holy Spirit lead them away from this divisive teaching that clearly gives skeptics reason to bash Christianity and avoid the faith all together?

In my study I looked up 75 New Testament References on hell and can only find one that supports the traditional view of never ending torture and that one is a parable that was not intended to teach on hell (Rich man and Lazarus).

CT

Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it – a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. (741)

Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.
I, Sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. (741)
divinemercy.com/faustina/

 

[clem456]

While the possibility of hell is very real for everyone, that possibility is not the Gospel that we proclaim. The possibility of hell is not the good news, the possibility of heaven is the good news.

Anxiety and inordinate fear are enemies of the spiritual life and do not bear good fruit. We should proclaim the gospel in such a way as to instill trust and confidence (which is not the same thing as presumption).

 

[clem456]

I would say in the best prisons today people still suffer, may even gnash their teeth, but in deep regret and not for what they have done but for where it has led them. No torture needed for that mental torment of regret is to the deepest part of the soul. The judgement can not be undone, the deed can not be undone, the word can not be unsaid etc. etc… That is torment so strong people who suffer it today while alive some find unbearable , some even taking their own lives to try to escape it. No fire needed, just down time, time to be still, and face the truth, alone .

Blessings

And this torment is a turning point for many people IF they realize and accept the great gift we have been given through the forgiveness of Christ. When all consolation is taken away and there is nothing left but your own depravity and the cross, God has surely got your attention.
There is no amount of sin that Christ has not conquered with his sacrifice.

 

[Techno2000]

I just completed a study on the different views of hell and I am mystified on how evangelicals and protestants believe that God tortures people forever in fire. Catholic teaching seems to have abandoned this long ago in favor of a more rational and educated assessment of scripture on this subject. I looked up many of the most popular TV evangelists and religious groups and most all have this view. Some are very educated people with a large following and I just find it hard to believe how anyone can support such a barbaric and sadistic teaching. Many of them are good people that seem to be honest in their position and don’t seem to be looking just to strike fear and control their flock. My question is since if they are sincere in this belief why doesn’t the Holy Spirit lead them away from this divisive teaching that clearly gives skeptics reason to bash Christianity and avoid the faith all together?

In my study I looked up 75 New Testament References on hell and can only find one that supports the traditional view of never ending torture and that one is a parable that was not intended to teach on hell (Rich man and Lazarus).

CT

Sister Lucy of Fatima Describes the Vision of Hell

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:

“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”
fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asphttp://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I didn’t say CC abandoned hell. I said it abandoned eternal torture.

Among Catholics: Pope John Paul II
This is a statement from Pope John Paul II made on July 28, 1999. Hell is not a place of fire and eternal suffering, he says. He describes it as separation from God, chosen by people using their free will, and only symbolically described as a fiery place of torment as a strongly portrayed reminder of the freedom from death believers have. He refers to the descriptions of torment as “improper use of Biblical images”

Eternal separation from God would be the greatest form of torture and hell for me.

 

[Techno2000]

I just completed a study on the different views of hell and I am mystified on how evangelicals and protestants believe that God tortures people forever in fire. Catholic teaching seems to have abandoned this long ago in favor of a more rational and educated assessment of scripture on this subject. I looked up many of the most popular TV evangelists and religious groups and most all have this view. Some are very educated people with a large following and I just find it hard to believe how anyone can support such a barbaric and sadistic teaching. Many of them are good people that seem to be honest in their position and don’t seem to be looking just to strike fear and control their flock. My question is since if they are sincere in this belief why doesn’t the Holy Spirit lead them away from this divisive teaching that clearly gives skeptics reason to bash Christianity and avoid the faith all together?

In my study I looked up 75 New Testament References on hell and can only find one that supports the traditional view of never ending torture and that one is a parable that was not intended to teach on hell (Rich man and Lazarus).

CT

St. John Bosco’s Vision of Hell
A vision of hell was also given to St. John Bosco (1815—1888). This was one of many prophetic dreams—more properly called visions—which he received and recorded in seven large volumes. The following dream occurred on the Feast of St. Joseph, May 3, 1968, a Sunday night.

“Where to now?” I asked my guide.

“This way,” he replied.

We took the road. It was beautiful, wide, and neatly paved. “The way of sinners is made plain with stones, and in their end is hell, and darkness, and pains. ” (Ecclesiasticus 21: 11, stones: broad and easy.) Both sides were lined with magnificent verdant hedges dotted with gorgeous flowers. Roses, especially, peeped everywhere through the leaves. At first glance, the road was level and comfortable, and so I ventured upon it without the least suspicion, but soon I noticed that it insensibly kept sloping downward. Though it did not look steep at all, I found myself moving so swiftly that I felt I was effortlessly gliding through the air. Really, I was gliding and hardly using my feet. Then the thought struck me that the return trip would be very long and arduous.

fatima.ageofmary.com/hell/st-boscos-vision-of-hell/

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Are you saying that God is unjust in His Judgements? So, you think it’s wrong for God to create a suitable place of punishment for people like Hitler to go, who hate God and all mankind? Who also torture and murder thousands of people? Do you really believe they should go to Heaven, instead? Is it just because it’s not a very “happy thought” for you to picture them burning in Hell for all eternity? You do realize that they choose to go to Hell and suffer it’s torments because they HATE God and never want to be anywhere near Him, right?

Who are you to call God’s character and Justice into question? You’re the one that’s attaching your own ideas about what you think God would or wouldn’t do according to your own preconceived notions. Have you ever read Job?

When we die we will become more fully aware of God’s Plan of Salvation, and will understand His Mercy, as well as His Justice, better than we do, now. Then, we’ll know for sure why our poor loved ones chose to go to Hell, and we’ll be at peace knowing it. God’s Justice is perfect, so the punishment always fits the crime. Some souls will suffer much more in Hell than others, depending on the gravity and number of their sins. They only get whatever they truly deserve as individuals.

“Apocalypse 20: [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.”

God has called on many great Saints to give warnings to the living, like the prophets did in the OT, to help us understand His spiritual truths. We are certainly free to choose whether to believe them or not. But, if we choose to ignore them, it could be detrimental to our own salvation.

This Catholic “version of Hell” speaks about separation from God, as well as the soul’s eternal punishment in the fires of hell. You might want to reread it.

Exactly. Thank you. It would seem that someone is not really thinking clearly, if they believe the Church has ever changed her teaching on Hell, either about its nature or its duration.

The thought of purgatory scares me. Imagine what hell does. I am not so arrogant to think I won’t have to spend some time in purgatory, but I’m trying to lessen it as much as possible. I could not bear an eternity away from God. Talk about being “scared straight!” I was never a “bad girl,” though, in any sense of the term.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Sister Lucy of Fatima Describes the Vision of Hell

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:

“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”
fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asphttp://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp

I have a lot of trouble with private revelations that must be kept secret for a period of time. I believe if Our Lady (and I have the utmost respect and love for Our Blessed Mother) wanted us to know something, she would appear to the world. The “secret” of Fatima turned out to be nothing we didn’t already know.

I do believe that Lucia, Jacinta, and Francisco were very holy children and that they believed they saw what they reported. But, being children, I think their imaginations were working overtime.

We are not obliged to believe in private revelations. This is from an article by a Carmelite priest:

*Again we put the question: must Catholics believe in Fatima? The answer is two-fold. So far as the heart of the Fatima message goes, meaning prayer, penance, reparation and the compassionate Immaculate Heart of Mary — the Church’s approval here is absolute. No Catholic is free to reject these key aspects of Christian belief and practise. The Church’s judgment here is infallible because these are matters that affect the very core of our Christian and Catholic life. So far as the particular circumstances that gave rise to the Fatima message are concerned the Church has warmly recommended acceptance of the apparitions, but only as a matter of human faith, so that a Catholic is not obliged to accept the initial accounts, whether of 1917, or the appearances of the angel in 1916 or subsequent revelations communicated to Lucy since 1917. *

Of course I do believe in the necessity of prayer, penance, reparation, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The rest, I’m not so sure about, and since I’m not obligated to believe, I don’t feel bad about taking time to make up my mind.

I also don’t believe in the visions said to be going on in eastern Europe now. It’s too bizarre a story, but I’ll not close my mind to future belief. I do believe that God reveals himself privately to certain people. I believe in Catholic mysticism and contemplation as practiced by Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, etc.

If anyone wants to read the article, it’s here:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1165

 

[Techno2000]

I have a lot of trouble with private revelations that must be kept secret for a period of time. I believe if Our Lady (and I have the utmost respect and love for Our Blessed Mother) wanted us to know something, she would appear to the world. The “secret” of Fatima turned out to be nothing we didn’t already know.

I do believe that Lucia, Jacinta, and Francisco were very holy children and that they believed they saw what they reported. But, being children, I think their imaginations were working overtime.

Well I have absolutely no trouble believing private revelation if the Catholic Church approves them, they are a great enlightenment.