Never ending torture in hell

[CLearthinking04]

But you have not provided evidence that hell is NOT a place of everlasting torment. You have not provided any evidence that torment in hell is just symbolism. I am prepared to have an open mind to hear your arguments for a less dismal hell but glossing it over just to suit modern sensitivities can not be acceptable if that is not true. .

Earlier I posted John Paul’s views on incorrect use of biblical symbolism and I see the references you cite are out of context. Here are biblical passages in their context;

Romans 6:23 (This means just what it says “death”)
23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16-18 (perish means death)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son – the only begotten – He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (“consume” fire destroys and consumes until nothing is left)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Jude 1:7 (The example St Jude is giving here is about fiery consumption of the cities. It is the fire that is eternal and the object subject in the fire is destroyed. Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning but are eternally destroyed).
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

2Peter 2:17 & Jude 1:13 (Blackness darkness is a good metaphor for death, certainly not literal fire)
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

Mark 9:47 (The metaphor of the worms not dying & fire not quenched is about not being able to stop the destruction. It say nothing about never ending torture. Salted with fire means the same thing as burning with fire, a metaphor remembering that fire consumes rendering death)
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where” ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

**Matt 13:41-42, 49-50, Matt 24:51 (Weeping and gnashing of teeth says nothing about never ending torture. It could just mean people are aware of their impending destruction.
** In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 3:17, Matt 3:12 (The farming example Jesus is using here is what farmers do, burn up the chaff. The chaff is gone after being burned. It is the fire that is unquenchable but the subject of the fire is destroyed).
17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 16:23 (The rich man and Lazarus was a well known parable from in the pagan world that Jesus used as an example to teach about the greed of the Pharisees and was not intended as a teaching on what happens in hell after the final judgment. This is evidenced by the fact that Jesus used the word “hades” which means Sheol that intermediate place of the dead and not final judgment. The story exaggerations such as how can people in heaven see and communicate with people in hell or how would a drip of water help when the whole body is on fire are typical of a parable used by Jesus. The torment is knowing of impending judgment and not about eternal hellfire is clear).
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Matt 10:28 (It can’t get any clearer than that- body and soul are destroyed)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 16:26-27 (lose your soul says nothing about fiery torture).
26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul.

Rev 2:11 (second death means just what it says, you die a second time, this time final)
11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Rev 21:8 (This passage clearly defines the lake of fire as death)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Rev 20:12 (Death was then destroyed & Hades was also destroyed, again the lake of fire is death)
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[CLearthinking04]

Rev 20:10 “…lake of fire and brimstone…tormented day and night for ever and ever”

Continued;
Rev 20:10 "Lake of Fire where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(“Forever and ever” A term that is sometimes translated as “to the end of the ages” (See Young’s Literal Translation), appears to conflict with other scriptures within revelation for example “second death”… When a passage is highly symbolic or uses hyperbolic language other scriptures are referred that describe the same scene for a clearer meaning. Refer to Daniel 7:11 discusses the same scene as Rev 20:10.

Daniel 7:11New International Version (NIV) 11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) (allowed to live as opposed to not die is within the context

Daniel’s inspired description of the same scene clearly points to death of anyone thrown into the lake of fire.The lake of fire totally destroys, forever, what is thrown in it. Humans thrown in it are consumed and become eternally DEAD (Revelation 20:12, 14-15). Daniel 7:11 is consistent with the second death described in Revelation.

 

[ericc]

I think a lot of atheists are heading for a very big, and very unpleasant, surprise. Just my opinion, of course on this paragraph.

Well you don’t want them to say that we didn’t warn them Hell was THAT bad. We might even deter some from going down the wrong path, especially those with low threshold of pain. For those sitting on the fence , a few thousands of degrees of divine heat can be very persuasive. That is why secular authorities do threaten intending offenders with serious punishments when caught breaking the law. And nobody question whether the authorities are insensitive or medieval in mindset in these modern times or doubt whether the punishment is symbolic or real.

Unlike secular authorities, there is no escaping God’s justice, tempered with mercy of course. If he says the punishment is lake of fire, it WILL be lake of fire. Potential lawyers may try word games or gymnastics but why bother. Didn’t they know that there is a divine recording device in everyone that records every thought or action ever committed (Rev 20:12-13)? He has all the cards, statutes, evidences, witnesses, judge on his side and the offender’s friends are already on the other side preparing the welcoming mat hollering him to come over asap. I am sure they will vouch for him.

 

[ericc]

Romans 6:23

John 3:16-18 (perish means death)

Hebrews 10:26-31

Jude 1:7

2Peter 2:17 & Jude 1:13 (Blackness darkness is a good metaphor for death, certainly not literal fire)

Mark 9:47

These verses do not support your belief that there is no eternal torment in hell. They talked about death but that is a different topic. Are you sure you have the right context?

**Matt 13:41-42, 49-50, Matt 24:51 (Weeping and gnashing of teeth says nothing about never ending torture. It could just mean people are aware of their impending destruction.
** In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Ok it didn’t say never ending torture. But it is understood that one gnash their teeth in pain/anger/anguish context. I don’t gnash my teeth and weep all day long while awaiting my death which I know will come eventually as long as I am not in pain.

Luke 3:17, Matt 3:12 (The farming example Jesus is using here is what farmers do, burn up the chaff. The chaff is gone after being burned. It is the fire that is unquenchable but the subject of the fire is destroyed).
17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

And what is your point? That souls are being destroyed , annihilated?

Luke 16:23 (The rich man and Lazarus was a well known parable from in the pagan world that Jesus used as an example to teach about the greed of the Pharisees and was not intended as a teaching on what happens in hell after the final judgment. This is evidenced by the fact that Jesus used the word “hades” which means Sheol that intermediate place of the dead and not final judgment. The story exaggerations such as how can people in heaven see and communicate with people in hell or how would a drip of water help when the whole body is on fire are typical of a parable used by Jesus. The torment is knowing of impending judgment and not about eternal hellfire is clear).
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Are you saying Jesus is exaggerating in this parable? You are mistaken. The rich man is in hell, in torment. There is no other place other than Hell where the torment is permanent. Lazarus is not in heaven (yet) since Christ haven’t open the gates of heaven yet. Hades used in the NT may mean hell, you need to look at the context such as in Mat 16:18 as well. Sheol in the OT means a place for the dead, righteous and unrighteous. There is a great chasm between Abraham’s Bosum and hell that has been fixed that none may cross over Luke 16:26. You can see that in Sheol, there is a separation of the righteous and unrighteousness, with the unrighteousness already being tormented in the hell part but the righteous in Abraham’s Bosum awaiting heaven. If the rich man was in Purgatory, he will eventually cross over. But he wasn’t. Of course , people in hell may wish for things that are off limits to them. And being in hell, they don’t get it. So what does that prove?

Matt 10:28 (It can’t get any clearer than that- body and soul are destroyed)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Are you saying that the soul is not eternal in hell and would be destroyed, annihilated?

Matt 16:26-27 (lose your soul says nothing about fiery torture).
26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul.

What is the purpose of this quote? It doesn’t support your case and silent for mine.

Rev 2:11 (second death means just what it says, you die a second time, this time final)
11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Rev 21:8 (This passage clearly defines the lake of fire as death)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Rev 20:12 (Death was then destroyed & Hades was also destroyed, again the lake of fire is death)
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Same question. Are you saying that the soul in hell is destroyed completely, annihilated, non-existence? What does second death mean to you? Are you championing for Annihilationism? Your other posts suggest that leaning.

And Mat 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment…”. Annihilation will mean that the punishment will not be eternal. Or is Jesus exaggerating or lying?

Since you quoted Daniel, I have a quote for you as well Dan 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Key word: everlasting.

Most importantly, you called yourself Catholic. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach Annihilationism. That is not in the Catechism. She teaches the existence of hell and its eternity. Teaching a non-eternal hell is wrong. It promotes more evil since they think they can escape eternal punishment via this route. Where did you pick this up may I ask?

 

[Telstar]

You missed my point. The Scriptures clearly point to the punishment of hell as death, cessation of life and not torture. So, yes truth is more important.

The scriptures also clearly describe hell as a “pool” or “furnace of fire” where evil souls end up going, which you consistently choose to ignore. I also think you are defining “eternal death”, incorrectly. You are defining it in the same terms as physical death, which in the natural world means that the body ceases to function, and immediately falls into decay. However, the fact is that the soul cannot die because it’s immortal. So, the ‘death’ of a physical body is only a temporary condition for all human beings, that was never intended to happen, at all.

The body only dies when the soul temporarily leaves it, at the end of our earthly existence. The soul is what keeps a human body alive. It’s that singular part of us that is truly created in the image and likeness of God. Souls do not die, because God created them to exist with Him, forever. That’s why we all look forward to the resurrection of our bodies. That’s when we will be “whole” again, in the world to come. Jesus came to earth, to live and die as we do, to save us from Hell. We are all destined to live forever, either in Heaven with God, or in Hell without Him.

Angels can never die, either. We (like them) have the same ultimate choice to make concerning whether we wish to live in harmony with God in Heaven, or to live separate from Him in Hell, forever. Which means, we have to decide whether we love Him or hate Him. Either way, our souls can never die. Angels are spiritual beings that have never had a physical body, but even the fallen angels were condemned by God to continue to exist in Hell, forever. Why should we think we’d be treated differently than them?

Maybe fear tactics worked throughout history using the symbolism incorrectly because people were basically uneducated. Today that is not so and many with even a cursory amount of education isn’t buying it. So, if we continue to teach an incorrect version of Hell we are misrepresenting God and his nature and could be indirectly responsible for the loss of souls.

So, you’re accusing Jesus of using “fear tactics”, just to scare people into being good? Really? Have you ever even considered the fact that it may have been described that way by Jesus, because He wants us to know the absolute truth? You’re certainly correct in that last statement.

Just wondering, would you agree with St. Augustine where babies who die before baptism are thrown into the flames of hell and tortured forever? I guess because they deserve it right?

This is a perfect example of the kind of “proof-texting” that many people also use when searching for support of their arguments in the Bible. This kind of statement, made by an individual, is also one of the reasons that the Catholic Church is very careful about never declaring any particular soul to be in Hell. The Church leaves those things for God to judge. But, if you look for this idea in the Bible, where St. Augustine got it, you can easily see that Jesus made a similar declaration. He said, “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

So, if everyone’s situation is to be literally judged as black or white, with the same degrees of glory in Heaven, or punishment in Hell, then Jesus condemned all of the unbaptized to Hell. Even babies. Right? What about Moses, Abraham, or Isaac? Are they also in Hell, along with everyone else that existed long before Baptism was instituted by Christ?

This is why we need to listen to what the Church actually teaches, and not what individual Catholics might believe, no matter who they are.

<This is the type of fundamentalism that is loosing a generation of young people, but that means nothing to you?

Seriously? Did you ever consider the fact that the reason young people may not want to believe in Hell is because they might be engaging in serious sins, and don’t want to think about where that might lead them in the next life? Did you ever think that they’d rather stop believing in either Heaven or Hell, than give up all the “fun” they can have in this life?

So much of what they see on TV, in movies, or in video games has taught them that the world they live in now is the only true reality. They realize that all of those other things are fake. So, they grow up believing (or try to convince themselves) that everything they’re taught about the spiritual world, that they can’t even see with their own eyes, is probably just like any of those other fantasies and fairy tales, that are only meant to be morality lessons, or just for entertainment purposes.

The reason they think that way, is because they’ve never had anyone try to convince them about the reality of Heaven and Hell. In recent years, too many well meaning people have tried to sugar coat subjects like Hell, so it doesn’t scare them too much. The results of that kind of approach are evident in the increasingly antisocial behavior of many of them. They often feel like they’re left with nothing outside of their own personal situations, to give their lives any real meaning.

So, if they find themselves in a situation that seems bleak, without any real hope of improvement, they can easily fall into using drugs, or turn to committing crimes out of desperation, because they have no fear. They think they have nothing else to look forward to. Some might even think that dieing would be a better alternative to living a life of misery in this world, because they’ve never learned very much, if anything, about the reality of the existence of Heaven and Hell. They need to learn about both of them, before it’s too late.

 

[benhur]

Romans 6:23 (This means just what it says “death”)
23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What about , “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’ll admit to having some fear of the actual act of dying because I hope it isn’t too scary and doesn’t hurt too much. (Really). However, I look forward to the afterlife and especially to the resurrection of the dead. Both of my parents have passed on, and my best friend in all the universe (other than Jesus) a very wonderful Catholic priest, who died at a fairly early age from cancer. I greatly look forward to seeing them again.

I don’t want to sound arrogant, and of course I don’t know, but I don’t think I’m going to hell. I love Christ with all my heart, all my mind, and all my soul. I am madly “in love” with him and cannot live without him. I scrupulously try to do his will. I don’t doubt that as a fallen human I am going to have to spend some time in purgatory, but I’m trying to shorten that as much as a fallen human can.

I honestly believe that if I didn’t love Christ so much, hell would not really scare me. I turn to Christ because I love him and want to spend eternity with him, not because I fear hell.

I should know this, being an MA theology student, but I think it was St. Paul, who said after the resurrection, the soul goes away. It is not needed. It is the light of God that animates the resurrected body. I am not sure where St. Paul wrote that. If anyone can enlighten me, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[Telstar]

And what is your point? That souls are being destroyed , annihilated?

Same question. Are you saying that the soul in hell is destroyed completely, annihilated, non-existence? What does second death mean to you? Are you championing for Annihilationism? Your other posts suggest that leaning.

Most importantly, you called yourself Catholic. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach Annihilationism. That is not in the Catechism. She teaches the existence of hell and its eternity. Teaching a non-eternal hell is wrong. It promotes more evil since they think they can escape eternal punishment via this route. Where did you pick this up may I ask?

I think that’s exactly the idea they’re promoting. They believe that “eternal death” means the complete annihilation of souls by God. Wouldn’t that make God guilty of committing the ultimate sin, by actually murdering billions of souls, by annihilation? How could that possibly make God seem more humane to anyone? This concept is totally opposed to God’s Love, Mercy and His Justice! If God annihilates all souls that are condemned to Hell, then why should suicide, or murder, ever be considered to be a sinful act? Suicide is only a sin because it’s self-murder. Either one of those acts, only ends a physical life. But, we’re supposed to accept the fact that God can murder billions of souls by annihilating them, and think it’s OK for Him to do that? What??

 

[benhur]

Luke 16:23 (The rich man and Lazarus was a well known parable from in the pagan world that Jesus used as an example to teach about the greed of the Pharisees and was not intended as a teaching on what happens in hell after the final judgment. This is evidenced by the fact that Jesus used the word “hades” which means Sheol that intermediate place of the dead and not final judgment. The story exaggerations such as how can people in heaven see and communicate with people in hell or how would a drip of water help when the whole body is on fire are typical of a parable used by Jesus. The torment is knowing of impending judgment and not about eternal hellfire is clear).
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

it is an assumption that it is a parable. Pagan, that they may have a "story "like it says little. Some pagan cultures have stories of an "ancient flood ". Even if it is a parable Jesus never uses one that does not have real scenarios. He does not use pink elephants in His stories. of course I agree that the "story " is pre-resurrection, and opening of gates of heaven , and pre white throne judgement. However, nothing suggests that gehenna departs, moves, or ceases even after final judgement.

it is also an assumption to say the "torment " was fear of future final judgement. It only says the place itself, existence in that place itself, is torment.

 

[clem456]

Because Christ is the truth, his parables are no less true than a story that actually “happened”. It is his spoken word, given to us for instruction. We can debate which details are the most relevant and all that (thank God we have a Church).

Would anyone say that the “prodigal son” does not contain some weighty truth because it is a “story”?

 

[benhur]

Jude 1:7 (The example St Jude is giving here is about fiery consumption of the cities. It is the fire that is eternal and the object subject in the fire is destroyed. Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning but are eternally destroyed).
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

“When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate” EZ 16:55, agree that Sodom is not literally still burning but apparently neither is it eternally destroyed.

 

[CLearthinking04]

I think that’s exactly the idea they’re promoting. They believe that “eternal death” means the complete annihilation of souls by God. Wouldn’t that make God guilty of committing the ultimate sin, by actually murdering billions of souls, by annihilation? How could that possibly make God seem more humane to anyone? This concept is totally opposed to God’s Love, Mercy and His Justice! If God annihilates all souls that are condemned to Hell, then why should suicide, or murder, ever be considered to be a sinful act? Suicide is only a sin because it’s self-murder. Either one of those acts, only ends a physical life. But, we’re supposed to accept the fact that God can murder billions of souls by annihilating them, and think it’s OK for Him to do that? What??

OK annihilation is not acceptable but never ending torture is? Wow.

 

[CLearthinking04]

However, nothing suggests that gehenna departs, moves, or ceases even after final judgement…

What about;
Revelation 20:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[ericc]

OK annihilation is not acceptable but never ending torture is? Wow.

Please reread Mat 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment…”. Unless you can exegete your view to prevail over what Jesus stated so plainly, you are imposing your personal view of what should be, ought to be rather than what is being taught by Christ.

Why do you respond with incredulity when others accept Christ statement that punishment is eternal when he said so himself? We do not create new dogma, we hear his teaching and accept. The Church can not disregard Christ teaching on eternal punishment. Eternal hell/punishment has been divinely revealed to us, it is not a man-made doctrine. Do you realize it is You vs Jesus and not You vs Us?

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs

Instead of quoting multiple verses that does not clearly support non-eternal punishment, why don’t you focus on Mat 25:46 and Rev 20:10 which clearly says that torment is eternal. Explain why in your view it isn’t and why you are correct and the Church catechism is wrong.

Since you have conceded that annihilation is not acceptable, then logic dictates that eternal punishment in hell must be the only possible outcome. There is no such thing as a zero-punishment hell for evil-doers.

 

[Telstar]

OK annihilation is not acceptable but never ending torture is? Wow.

As I clearly explained several posts back, God is not the perpetrator of any kind of "torture", against anyone in Hell. God created a prison, separate from Heaven, as a fitting place to banish all the fallen angels and evil souls, for all eternity. Prisons are never meant to be places of pleasure, but a place of punishment. They serve the purpose of separating the offensive members of any society that consistently break the law, from those that follow it. Hell is not much different than any other prison, where all of the inmates have received a ‘life sentence’ for committing serious crimes against God, and against humanity.

The most severe pain that all demons and souls experience there, is the anguish of knowing that they will always be separated from the love of God, for all eternity. Even though they hate Him with every fiber of their beings, it will still cause them intense pain, because they freely chose to give it all up. They knew that once they made that choice, it was irrevocable.

I happen to believe that there are many different levels of Hell, based on my own personal research on the subject. Not all souls will suffer the same intensity of pain in Hell. Their feelings of guilt will be proportioned to each individual, according to their own degree of sinfulness. Some may suffer very little, while others will most likely suffer much more. Those who go there will probably ‘torture’ each other, the same way prisoners do in any earthly prison. That’s what evil people do when they blame everyone else for their own, self-created, misery. They try to make everyone else as miserable as they are.

But, you seem to think that the entire concept of an eternal Hell is an “evil” thing, that could never be created by God. I suppose that in your mind, it’s just not fair. You think that people, including the Catholic Church, have always misunderstood God’s real purpose, which was only to use certain descriptions of Hell as a metaphor. Wasn’t it Jesus that said Satan was, “a liar and a murderer from the beginning”? That was supposed to be a bad thing, wasn’t it? But, since you already seem to think Jesus was a bit of a liar, because He didn’t really mean that Hell was an actual “pool of fire”, you might as well think God is a murderer, too. Right?

By believing that God could completely annihilate any soul, that’s exactly what you’re doing. Would you really rather accuse God of destroying billions of souls? Do you even realize that would mean God would be guilty of filicide, for killing His own children by the billions? Wow. That really would make someone like Hitler look like a choir boy. Would it really make you feel any better, to think that God could ever even consider doing something like that? Maybe it’s just me, but just the thought of it makes me want to vomit.

 

[CLearthinking04]

As I clearly explained several posts back, God is not the perpetrator of any kind of "torture", against anyone in Hell. God created a prison, separate from Heaven, as a fitting place to banish all the fallen angels and evil souls, for all eternity. Prisons are never meant to be places of pleasure, but a place of punishment. They serve the purpose of separating the offensive members of any society that consistently break the law, from those that follow it. Hell is not much different than any other prison, where all of the inmates have received a ‘life sentence’ for committing serious crimes against God, and against humanity.

The most severe pain that all demons and souls experience there, is the anguish of knowing that they will always be separated from the love of God, for all eternity. Even though they hate Him with every fiber of their beings, it will still cause them intense pain, because they freely chose to give it all up. They knew that once they made that choice, it was irrevocable.

I happen to believe that there are many different levels of Hell, based on my own personal research on the subject. Not all souls will suffer the same intensity of pain in Hell. Their feelings of guilt will be proportioned to each individual, according to their own degree of sinfulness. Some may suffer very little, while others will most likely suffer much more. Those who go there will probably ‘torture’ each other, the same way prisoners do in any earthly prison. That’s what evil people do when they blame everyone else for their own, self-created, misery. They try to make everyone else as miserable as they are.

But, you seem to think that the entire concept of an eternal Hell is an “evil” thing, that could never be created by God. I suppose that in your mind, it’s just not fair. You think that people, including the Catholic Church, have always misunderstood God’s real purpose, which was only to use certain descriptions of Hell as a metaphor. Wasn’t it Jesus that said Satan was, “a liar and a murderer from the beginning”? That was supposed to be a bad thing, wasn’t it? But, since you already seem to think Jesus was a bit of a liar, because He didn’t really mean that Hell was an actual “pool of fire”, you might as well think God is a murderer, too. Right?

By believing that God could completely annihilate any soul, that’s exactly what you’re doing. Would you really rather accuse God of destroying billions of souls? Do you even realize that would mean God would be guilty of filicide, for killing His own children by the billions? Wow. That really would make someone like Hitler look like a choir boy. Would it really make you feel any better, to think that God could ever even consider doing something like that? Maybe it’s just me, but just the thought of it makes me want to vomit.

Your version of hell above is actually more ethical and I would prefer it but aren’t you doing the same thing you accused me of, making hell less hard so it’s easier to accept? Your disgust for annihilation as you describe that makes you want to vomit is exactly how I feel when hell is described as a fiery torture chamber that goes on for eternity. It makes God out to be a monster which we both know is not true. Realize that the final death of the incorrigibly wicked in a lake of fire is an act not only of justice, but of mercy on God’s part. To allow them to continue to live on in unrepentant in eternal rebellion would cause themselves and others in heaven (who are supposedly aware of their loved one being tortured) to experience only great sorrow and anguish forever, which is cosmic overkill. A God of love would not put them through that, much less torture them for all eternity in excruciating torment without end.

BTW - Accusing me of calling Jesus a liar is without merit. I am questing the interpretation of what is said not who is saying it.

 

[CLearthinking04]

These verses do not support your belief that there is no eternal torment in hell. They talked about death but that is a different topic. Are you sure you have the right context?
Ok it didn’t say never ending torture. But it is understood that one gnash their teeth in pain/anger/anguish context. I don’t gnash my teeth and weep all day long while awaiting my death which I know will come eventually as long as I am not in pain.
And what is your point? That souls are being destroyed , annihilated?

Are you saying Jesus is exaggerating in this parable? You are mistaken. The rich man is in hell, in torment. There is no other place other than Hell where the torment is permanent. Lazarus is not in heaven (yet) since Christ haven’t open the gates of heaven yet. Hades used in the NT may mean hell, you need to look at the context such as in Mat 16:18 as well. Sheol in the OT means a place for the dead, righteous and unrighteous. There is a great chasm between Abraham’s Bosum and hell that has been fixed that none may cross over Luke 16:26. You can see that in Sheol, there is a separation of the righteous and unrighteousness, with the unrighteousness already being tormented in the hell part but the righteous in Abraham’s Bosum awaiting heaven. If the rich man was in Purgatory, he will eventually cross over. But he wasn’t. Of course , people in hell may wish for things that are off limits to them. And being in hell, they don’t get it. So what does that prove?
Are you saying that the soul is not eternal in hell and would be destroyed, annihilated?
What is the purpose of this quote? It doesn’t support your case and silent for mine.

Same question. Are you saying that the soul in hell is destroyed completely, annihilated, non-existence? What does second death mean to you? Are you championing for Annihilationism? Your other posts suggest that leaning.

And Mat 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment…”. Annihilation will mean that the punishment will not be eternal. Or is Jesus exaggerating or lying?

Since you quoted Daniel, I have a quote for you as well Dan 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Key word: everlasting.

Most importantly, you called yourself Catholic. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach Annihilationism. That is not in the Catechism. She teaches the existence of hell and its eternity. Teaching a non-eternal hell is wrong. It promotes more evil since they think they can escape eternal punishment via this route. Where did you pick this up may I ask?

I provided the scriptural references as the proof you requested. However it is clear that your frame of reference and understanding of the scriptures is vastly different from my frame of reference. Judging by your opening comment we can’t even agree on the context of when passages are speaking to the after life. Even your Daniel 12:2 quote emphasizing “everlasting” as somehow meaning eternal torture, I interpret as referring to death which can still be valid when the eternal punishment is death. While I respect your point of view and thank you your time in expressing a more fundamentalist understanding this subject I respectfully disagree. As far as Church teaching, the Catechism reiterates the same language as the scripture which does use symbolism and parable to communicate deep spiritual truths.

To summarize my position - Hell is a place of death which is also eternal. The flames, worms and darkness are metaphors for the process of death. There are levels of punishment that are mentioned in the bible which probably refer to purgatory but I am unsure about the details of this part.

 

[benhur]

What about;
Revelation 20:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

As always Cl, I can see your point, just disagree. Death and hell are described in previous verse, “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

• If you are going to be literal, then no man is cast into hell, not in rev 20:14.* It say only death and hell are. The understanding therefore can be that what death and hell gave up,as in “man” were cast into it. So Satan and his minions were cast into it at vs 10 and man in vs 14.

Yet , I agree it is more than man and Satan/minions that are cast into this lake, that death and hell also represent physical death as in the grave and hell as the power associated with Satan. (The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church- hell denoting Satan and his power, not Gehenna,as in Rev. vs. 14).(“Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death? O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes.” Hosea 13:14- See it says Sheol, not Gehenna.

Do not agree that hell is cast into hell (lake of fire ) for hell never had a first death. Man (and satan kind of have Satan when he was first cast out of heaven) definitely has a second death. So John in efficiency and power of words says it all with death and hell were cast into lake of fire. It is primarily the judged man, and secondarily the grave and power of the devil over man.

Why the change of name from hell to lake of fire ? Maybe to denote the everlasting part. Hell being the pre white throne judgement holding tank and lake of fire the actual penitentiary after final judgement. Both use symbols of fire. Not sure the place changes but for sure the finality of it.

 

[CLearthinking04]

• If you are going to be literal, then no man is cast into hell, not in rev 20:14.* **(Not sure about that look at 20:15) **It say only death and hell are. The understanding therefore can be that what death and hell gave up,as in “man” were cast into it. So Satan and his minions were cast into it at vs 10 and man in vs 14.

Here is the chronology according to Revelation

1. The beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. (Rev 19:20)
2. The devil is then thrown into the same lake. (Rev 20:10)
3. The sea gave up the dead and death and Hades gave up the dead (Rev 20:13)
4. Each person was judged according to what they have done. (Rev 20:12,13)
5. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (designated as the second death) (Rev 20:14)
6. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)
7. The new heaven, new Jerusalem, everything is made new. (Next Chapter 21)

Yet , I agree it is more than man and Satan/minions that are cast into this lake, that death and hell also represent physical death (Agreed) as in the grave and hell as the power associated with Satan. (The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church- hell denoting Satan and his power, not Gehenna,as in Rev. vs. 14).(“Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death? O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes.” Hosea 13:14- See it says Sheol, not Gehenna. (No argument here) .

Do not agree that hell is cast into hell (lake of fire ) for hell never had a first death.** (You are reading to much into the symbolism, hell can’t have a first death, it just means that hell or more appropriately hades/sheol is no more)** Man (and satan kind of have Satan when he was first cast out of heaven) definitely has a second death. So John in efficiency and power of words says it all with death and hell were cast into lake of fire. It is primarily the judged man, and secondarily the grave and power of the devil over man.

No argument here either.

Why the change of name from hell to lake of fire ? Maybe to denote the everlasting part. Hell being the pre white throne judgement holding tank and lake of fire the actual penitentiary after final judgement. Both use symbols of fire. Not sure the place changes but for sure the finality of it.

Definitely agree except that I define lake of fire as the process of ultimate death, fire being the consuming symbolism with the terms second death being the confirming text.

Unfortunately with many highly symbolic texts if one tries hard enough you can make the text say anything. I guess someday we will all find out for sure as long as we are not the ones weeping and gnashing our teeth. Thanks for the insight.

 

[benhur]

1. Each person was judged according to what they have done. (Rev 20:12,13)
2. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (designated as the second death) (Rev 20:14)
3. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

I see 6 describes 5.All people in 4 are unrighteous.The righteous do not partake of this judgement, and have been resurrected are with the Lord already, as they met Him in the air.

Definitely agree except that I define lake of fire as the process of ultimate death, fire being the consuming symbolism with the terms second death being the confirming text.

Except for the fact of resurrected body, that dies twice. The final annihilation as you suggest can only be once, the first, total death. It is the body that dies twice hence second death. While we may not be familiar what lies beyond, we certainly are familiar with physical death. With resurrection, we can understand a second physical death for those not in the book. On that we all agree.

Unfortunately with many highly symbolic texts if one tries hard enough you can make the text say anything.

Well maybe only several things.

Blessings