N
Nimzovik
Guest
Hmmmmmm. Succinctly stated. I always blame myself for such failures and rightly or wrongly, run to the confessional.
- Status
B
BobCatholic
Guest
So praying for something good is worthy of a trip to the confessional? Oh great, I’m doing this prayer thing wrong. I’m not supposed to ask God for good things then…
D
Dmendoza
Guest
I agree, all prayers are answered, everyone knows this. Sometimes, its yes or no, or not now, or I have something better for you, and even "are you kidding me? 
J
JRKH
Guest
Great Thread everybody…
I had no idea this would develop the way it has…
To me - the key to proper prayer, and prayer expectations, must first of all stem from the desire to draw closer to God. That is, to be more and more conformed to His Will - to His Mind.
Since we know that “God IS Love” (1 John 4:7-8) and that we are called to be “perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48) it follows that God’s Mind and Will is Love (Agape) and so Love is what we should seek to grow in ourselves.
The more we are successful in this, the more perfect, the more efficacious, the more productive will be our prayer life…and we will receive many more “yes” answers because we we won’t be asking for things contrary to God’s Will for us.
If we DON’T seek this first and foremost in our lives…we risk up setting our will in conflict with God’s Will…and this is where we run into problems in prayer…because we are end up asking for things inappropriate and we don’t know how to listen for the answer…and we are easily frustrated by any (apparent) “failure”…
This is the very thing that these “never known to fail” prayers feed into…a lack of trust, a personal desire and need…that may or may not be in accord with God’s Will for us (or for whoever we are praying for/about.
“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.” (Mt 6:33).
Peace
James
I had no idea this would develop the way it has…
To me - the key to proper prayer, and prayer expectations, must first of all stem from the desire to draw closer to God. That is, to be more and more conformed to His Will - to His Mind.
Since we know that “God IS Love” (1 John 4:7-8) and that we are called to be “perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48) it follows that God’s Mind and Will is Love (Agape) and so Love is what we should seek to grow in ourselves.
The more we are successful in this, the more perfect, the more efficacious, the more productive will be our prayer life…and we will receive many more “yes” answers because we we won’t be asking for things contrary to God’s Will for us.
If we DON’T seek this first and foremost in our lives…we risk up setting our will in conflict with God’s Will…and this is where we run into problems in prayer…because we are end up asking for things inappropriate and we don’t know how to listen for the answer…and we are easily frustrated by any (apparent) “failure”…
This is the very thing that these “never known to fail” prayers feed into…a lack of trust, a personal desire and need…that may or may not be in accord with God’s Will for us (or for whoever we are praying for/about.
“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.” (Mt 6:33).
Peace
James
N
Nimzovik
Guest
Yes I think you hit upon something here… It is a process of sorts. Of growth on the part of the Prayer person…Great Thread everybody…
I had no idea this would develop the way it has…
To me - the key to proper prayer, and prayer expectations, must first of all stem from the desire to draw closer to God. That is, to be more and more conformed to His Will - to His Mind.
Since we know that “God IS Love” (1 John 4:7-8) and that we are called to be “perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48) it follows that God’s Mind and Will is Love (Agape) and so Love is what we should seek to grow in ourselves.
**The more we are successful in this, the more perfect, the more efficacious, the more productive will be our prayer life…and we will receive many more “yes” answers because we we won’t be asking for things contrary to God’s Will for us. **
If we DON’T seek this first and foremost in our lives…we risk up setting our will in conflict with God’s Will…and this is where we run into problems in prayer…because we are end up asking for things inappropriate and we don’t know how to listen for the answer…and we are easily frustrated by any (apparent) “failure”…
This is the very thing that these “never known to fail” prayers feed into…a lack of trust, a personal desire and need…that may or may not be in accord with God’s Will for us (or for whoever we are praying for/about.
“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.” (Mt 6:33).
Peace
James
What is that old saying? ‘Even the filthiest of mirrors (soul) can reflect the light the closer it gets to the Fire (of God) with each cleaning stroke of (Mary’s? The Holy Spirit’s? Both?) hand via a verse of the Rosary.’
Sidebar:
I have felt (ugh! there is that “feeling” word again) sometimes when entering the Adoration Room, I have felt… compelled to sit down and get to…uh…the work…of prayers. There have also been times I have felt that the prayer prayed me instead of me praying the prayer. Like it was somehow automatic. I would note that time would go by very quickly as well sometimes…
I also know that there have been times when I would go to Adoration to do my Rosary and suddenly be obsessed with thinking of some chess problem (Chess= my hobby) and would have to wrestle with myself to… ‘fight through’ …the Rosary and get it done. Then as soon as I left the Adoration room I could no longer *even remember the chess problem! *
All rather baffling…
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
Bob, what you may think is good for you may not be. God knows us better than ourselves. To say a prayer for good has failed is incorrect.
The answer could be Yes, No, or Be Patient. If the answer was No, you have to trust in God that it is for a greater good and your own good.
Also, if it is not God’s will, as the OP noted, one should be open to that.
Also, from reading a little through the Diary of St. Faustina, through persitence, praying, sacrifices etc, God’s will CAN be changed.
God wants us to ask Him for BIG things as hes waiting to shower us with every grace. To not ask big is to have mistrust in God.
Stay persistent. If slmething doesnt work for you and you stop praying, thats a bit selfish. Keep at it.
D
Daizies
Guest
Those types of prayers always remind me of the “health and wealth” and “name it and claim it” preachers from my pre-Catholic days. The thought that we are entitled to a specific item or outcome based on our own actions. It seems almost more like spell casting than prayer.
Not that asking God for what we want is bad, but that we should be willing to accept that the answer may not be yes - and accept that our will and God’s will may not be the same thing. The problem becomes that failure to get the specific outcome desired then becomes a matter of failure for the petitioner, rather than a no or wait from God.
A specific example is in the case of healing of an illness or injury. One of the Pentecostal churches I used to attend - I heard the pastor tell a woman that if she went through with the knee surgery that she needed for an injury that she would be sinning. And if she was not healed then it was the result of some unrepented sin.
That’s the sort of thing I usually associate with these things. For a while in our parish we had a rash of those cards being left in the church, because to guarantee your prayer you had to leave 10 copies of the prayer in the church. Well, as a very new Catholic at the time I was freaking out a little - because I didn’t want to be in a Church that promoted that sort of superstition, and I was having a “what was I thinking” moment. Well, our Rector saw copies of them by the pamphlet rack, and he picked them up and crumpled them into a ball - at that point I knew his opinion of them and didn’t even need to ask about it.
My own personal thoughts on prayer is that while prayer is always answered, it may not be the answer we want. However, if, through prayer, we are trying to develop a better relationship with God, as we become closer to Him, and our will becomes conformed to His, we will see more “yes” answers - because we are finally asking for the right things.
Not that asking God for what we want is bad, but that we should be willing to accept that the answer may not be yes - and accept that our will and God’s will may not be the same thing. The problem becomes that failure to get the specific outcome desired then becomes a matter of failure for the petitioner, rather than a no or wait from God.
A specific example is in the case of healing of an illness or injury. One of the Pentecostal churches I used to attend - I heard the pastor tell a woman that if she went through with the knee surgery that she needed for an injury that she would be sinning. And if she was not healed then it was the result of some unrepented sin.
That’s the sort of thing I usually associate with these things. For a while in our parish we had a rash of those cards being left in the church, because to guarantee your prayer you had to leave 10 copies of the prayer in the church. Well, as a very new Catholic at the time I was freaking out a little - because I didn’t want to be in a Church that promoted that sort of superstition, and I was having a “what was I thinking” moment. Well, our Rector saw copies of them by the pamphlet rack, and he picked them up and crumpled them into a ball - at that point I knew his opinion of them and didn’t even need to ask about it.
My own personal thoughts on prayer is that while prayer is always answered, it may not be the answer we want. However, if, through prayer, we are trying to develop a better relationship with God, as we become closer to Him, and our will becomes conformed to His, we will see more “yes” answers - because we are finally asking for the right things.
J
JRKH
Guest
I thought of the “health and wealth” type angle too…even started to mention it earlier…but didn’t.
Great minds think alike…
Peace
James
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
I just remembered something…
Watchig EWTN last week on a program about Purgatory, a priest stated that asking for the intercession of souls in purgatory NEVER fails.
Did anyone else see this amd how do you all feel about that statement?
Watchig EWTN last week on a program about Purgatory, a priest stated that asking for the intercession of souls in purgatory NEVER fails.
Did anyone else see this amd how do you all feel about that statement?
D
De_Montfort
Guest
The way I understand prayer is that it doesn’t change God’s will but prayer changes us, conforms us to God’s will.
Just because something isn’t given right at the time you pray doesn’t mean it’s not answered.
I just pray the rosary and pray His will be done.
Just because something isn’t given right at the time you pray doesn’t mean it’s not answered.
I just pray the rosary and pray His will be done.
J
JRKH
Guest
Well - the way I feel about it is that if is a perfectly accurate statement…but redundant…
The other thing is to note that in saying this the priest did not attach any “provisions” such as those mentioned in other posts like - say this or that three time over three days…leave 10 copies of this prayer in church…etc…
The statement you refer to is nothing more than a simple statement of fact. Intercessory prayer works…
Peace
James
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
I see. So the difference is not the guarantee, the difference is the attachment of doing this or doing that in order to accomplish x goal.Well - the way I feel about it is that if is a perfectly accurate statement…but redundant…
The other thing is to note that in saying this the priest did not attach any “provisions” such as those mentioned in other posts like - say this or that three time over three days…leave 10 copies of this prayer in church…etc…
The statement you refer to is nothing more than a simple statement of fact. Intercessory prayer works…
Peace
James
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
And quite possibly by us being changed, that changes the will God has for us.
Jesus speaking to Faustina about the souls in purgatory, He says “My mercy does not want this, but my justice demands it.”
He reveals to her that she is worthy of one day in Purgatory.
Reading further, He then changes what He has said by saying something to the effect of "Youve done everything Ive asked, how can I possibly send you there (purgatory) now?’
J
JRKH
Guest
Basically correct…
Prayer - especially prayers of petition (which intercessory prayers are) are ALWAYS heard and ALWAYS answered…So saying that this or that prayer “never fails” is redundant…period.
Doing this or that so many times…leaving pamphlets here or there…and especially wording the promises in such a way as to make it appear a “slam dunk” that you will get exactly what you are asking for…these are the problems.
Now - I wish to caution here…We are not talking about situations where one might under take some prayer discipline in asking God for some favor. But such a case needs to be 1) with understanding of how prayer works…2) a deeply recognized need and desire…and 3) always with the inclusion that your desire is for God’s Will to be done.
With these understandings, one might embark on a prayer regimen tied any number of different forms of discipline, be it fasting, abstinence, volunteer work, self mortification (like exercise), etc. In such cases, the person is able to fully participate in the act. Those who fall for these “never fail” prayers…are most likely just “doing what it says” without any sort of deep understanding about what is really involved in true prayer…
Peace
James
N
Nimzovik
Guest
Hmmmmmmmm Interesting post…
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
From what little I’ve heard of St. Faustina, I’m not too impressed with her visions of purgatory.
This makes Jesus sound like He wants to punish the very souls He forgave on the cross. Not to send them to hell, but just to mess with them a bit I guess; let them know Who’s Boss. And the saint herself is like “Jesus wants me to go but I’m too good. tee hee.”
Those things are fine for her, but they really don’t wash with me because she sounds like she tries to structure heaven and purgatory in a worldly way that mimics what these souls escaped by dying to this world.
I could be totally wrong; of course her visions are her own, but they don’t impress me as someone who is already in the kingdom at the time of writing these things. Maybe she wrote these things before she developed whatever virtue got her to be a saint?
Alan
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
Purgatory is a place or state where we are made perfect, its not Jesus messing with us.From what little I’ve heard of St. Faustina, I’m not too impressed with her visions of purgatory.
This makes Jesus sound like He wants to punish the very souls He forgave on the cross. Not to send them to hell, but just to mess with them a bit I guess; let them know Who’s Boss. And the saint herself is like “Jesus wants me to go but I’m too good. tee hee.”
Those things are fine for her, but they really don’t wash with me because she sounds like she tries to structure heaven and purgatory in a worldly way that mimics what these souls escaped by dying to this world.
I could be totally wrong; of course her visions are her own, but they don’t impress me as someone who is already in the kingdom at the time of writing these things. Maybe she wrote these things before she developed whatever virtue got her to be a saint?
Alan
All the sins He has forgiven are forgiven, however, we are still accountable for them and must be purified before entering Heaven.
If one serves his purgatory on earth, such as martyrdom, for example, its highly possible that soul bypasses purgatory.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Precisely! I like the way you wrote that!
Would you also consider souls who have undergone Dark Night, marked with purgative contemplation, another possible example? … or at least where the purification is mostly done already?
Alan
C
CrimsonThorn
Guest
Sure, Id think any suffering done for the sake of God counts towards purgation. Or it could count toward the conversion of others.Precisely! I like the way you wrote that!
Would you also consider souls who have undergone Dark Night, marked with purgative contemplation, another possible example? … or at least where the purification is mostly done already?
Alan
If the person is still alive for many years after their suffering, the process is not complete as we sin, even venially, all the time. Those must be washed away again. This is how I personally understand it.
St Padre Pio is another great example IMO. The man was seemingly perfected by the time of his death through all the suffering he undertook for the sake of God.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Then God has an obligation to provide me more information so I can make a better decision so I know what to pray for.
“No, you can’t have a job for 2 years. That’s because my plan for you is this…” If I have the obligation to trust, he has the obligation to provide information.
Faith is not blind, it helps us see. “Blind trust” is not trust.
Then he knows I can’t handle a cross and won’t impose it. But that’s not how he rolls.
If God said “no” then it did fail.
If God’s will can be changed, then God has changed and that says God not perfect. That’s a heresy.
My prayers for BIG THINGS failed. No healing for my little boy.
It is not selfish. It is accepting of God’s will. God said no, game over. I don’t have a choice but to accept.
- Status