New Albany's diocese newspaper (more liturgical dancing...disgusting!)

[bones_IV]

Lord of the Dance (more liturgical dancing, disgusting)
From the Albany diocese’s newspaper:

As part of the annual Family Christmas Eve liturgy at St. Mary’s Church in Oneonta, liturgical dancers will dance to a Nativity carol.

The feature has been a part of the Mass for 12 years, said Michelle Gardner, coordinator for liturgical dance at the Otsego County parish. She has taught dancing for more than 25 years at area colleges and high schools.

“I have been dancing all of my life,” she said. “Being asked to coordinate liturgical dance was the first time I’d ever been invited to share the gift of dance as a prayer.”

[Edited by Moderator]

The insipid song by the Quakers, the Shakers, the candlestick makers, how on earth did that get into Worship III ? …Prince of Peace, Son of God…Lord of the Dance? YUCH! That’s not Catholic.

 

[puzzleannie]

gag me with a spoon, as my return college kids would have said.

 

[bones_IV]

gag me with a spoon, as my return college kids would have said.

To pre-empt the one about King David doing liturgical dancing…for one, he has nothing to do with Catholic liturgy, and he danced naked. Thankfully, no one’s had that idea yet. He also was a polygamist, so cherry-picking Bible verses tends to be a bad thing.

 

[Digitonomy]

To pre-empt the one about King David doing liturgical dancing…

I wasn’t aware of this - what verse is that?

 

[bones_IV]

I wasn’t aware of this - what verse is that?

I Kings* 2:16* And when the ark of the Lord was come into the city of David, Michol the daughter of Saul, looking out through a window, saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord: and she despised him in her heart.

It was part of the celebration of Yahweh’s victory over Egypt (Ex 15:20), the procession in which David brought the ark into Jerusalem (2 Sam 6:5ff), the celebration of the golden calf (Ex 32:19, Pss 149:3, 150:4).

You can’t really cherry pick something from the Old Testament. One just justify all kinds of things that way, from genocide to slavery and polygamy.

 

[Marysann]

David was leaping and dancing in the street as the Ark was being brought into town. He was not dancing in the temple, which of course hadn’t been built yet. The instructions for worship in the temple were very specific, and they didn’t call for dancing. I checked this out with a rabbi to make sure!

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

To me it seems like this is performed before the mass even starts (e.g. choir singing preludes), not during the mass, so no harm, no foul here. All other instances of liturgical dancing linked here have all been done outside the mass.

 

[scylla]

To me it seems like this is performed before the mass even starts (e.g. choir singing preludes), not during the mass, so no harm, no foul here. All other instances of liturgical dancing linked here have all been done outside the mass.

So anything you want to do before Mass inside the Church is ok?
Or dancing in Church before Mass is ok as long as it is before Mass.

I understand the choir practicing singing as that would be for Mass, I understand praying the Rosary, or silent prayer, or Adoration, but I really don’t see the justification for dancing around the Church, would this justify other types of activities as long as it is prefaced by “liturgical”.
Liturgical puppet show, liturgical juggling, liturgical plate spinning…

Can you please clarify.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Patchunky]

David was leaping and dancing in the street as the Ark was being brought into town. He was not dancing in the temple, which of course hadn’t been built yet. The instructions for worship in the temple were very specific, and they didn’t call for dancing. I checked this out with a rabbi to make sure!

But Psalm 150, verse 4 says: “Praise Him with timbrel and dance, Praise Him with strings and pipe…”

This was done in the Temple!

This quote is from NEW AMERICAN BIBLE, IMPRIMATUR: PATRICK CARDINAL O’BOYLE,D.D. incase any of you were wondering… I know how y’all get…

 

[scylla]

But Psalm 150, verse 4 says: “Praise Him with timbrel and dance, Praise Him with strings and pipe…”

This was done in the Temple!

This quote is from NEW AMERICAN BIBLE, IMPRIMATUR: PATRICK CARDINAL O’BOYLE,D.D. incase any of you were wondering… I know how y’all get…

This does not say that we praise Him in the Temple with dance. It says first praise Him in the Temple, praise Him in Heaven.
Praise Him in many different ways…
In everything we do praise Him.

This is not a guide to rubrics but a guide to praise God in everything breath we take, in everything, in all joyous activities.
Should I look to every passage to justify my desires? Lets say I don’t like my parents, well Jesus recommends that I should hate them. (is that what He meant?)

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Patchunky]

This does not say that we praise Him in the Temple with dance. It says first praise Him in the Temple, praise Him in Heaven.
Praise Him in many different ways…
In everything we do praise Him.

This is not a guide to rubrics but a guide to praise God in everything breath we take, in everything, in all joyous activities.
Should I look to every passage to justify my desires? Lets say I don’t like my parents, well Jesus recommends that I should hate them. (is that what He meant?)

In Christ
Scylla

So you can praise Him with dance in the Mass too…

 

[fodda23]

David was leaping and dancing in the street as the Ark was being brought into town. He was not dancing in the temple, which of course hadn’t been built yet. The instructions for worship in the temple were very specific, and they didn’t call for dancing. I checked this out with a rabbi to make sure!

That is great Marysann! Great point. Dance outside all you want. As a priest and as a man, the dancing thing is always weird to me. Dancers are performing, and I haven’t read anything in any liturgical document that specifies where one should perform as others passively watch. The liturgy is the “work of the people,” not the passive action of the people watching inappropriately dressed young women move about the sanctuary. How can leotards become appropriate dress for Church, let alone appropriate dress for liturgical action?

 

[Digitonomy]

Dancers are performing, and I haven’t read anything in any liturgical document that specifies where one should perform as others passively watch.

On this particular point I think one could argue a parallel with the actions of the choir, which at times are rather superfluous to the liturgy.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

So anything you want to do before Mass inside the Church is ok?
Or dancing in Church before Mass is ok as long as it is before Mass.

I understand the choir practicing singing as that would be for Mass, I understand praying the Rosary, or silent prayer, or Adoration, but I really don’t see the justification for dancing around the Church, would this justify other types of activities as long as it is prefaced by “liturgical”.
Liturgical puppet show, liturgical juggling, liturgical plate spinning…

Can you please clarify.

God Bless
Scylla

For Christmas masses, it is not just choir practicing, but some parishes have choirs that sing a few pieces in a parish sing-along before mass starts.

By doing artistic dances does not mean the door is wide open to everything else. It is a form of spirituality through artistic body movements, just one of many ways to pray as what constitutes individual “prayer” is very broad in the wide world.

 

[bones_IV]

Tell me, when people “cherry-pick” their quotes from the Bible, why do they always seem to pick from the most irrelevant sources?
Everyone knows that the Mass is a SACRIFICE, and that it derives its symbolism and significance largely from the Passover of the Israelites from Egypt. So…was dancing promulgated by the Jews as part of their Passover ritual??

No. Because the Passover was not the end and ultimate victory, but rather, the beginning of their journey, and sustinence and means necessary to survive many upcoming trials and tribulations.(…like passing through the Red Sea, wandering through howling deserts and militarily conquering their former lands from enemies.)

 

[palmas85]

But Psalm 150, verse 4 says: “Praise Him with timbrel and dance, Praise Him with strings and pipe…”

This was done in the Temple!

This quote is from NEW AMERICAN BIBLE, IMPRIMATUR: PATRICK CARDINAL O’BOYLE,D.D. incase any of you were wondering… I know how y’all get…

Jewish temple observances did not include dancing. I’m sorry to let you in on that one. Jewish temple observance has always been a very solemn, ritualized affair with much reverence and attention to detail. They were hardly wild affairs in which anything and everything was permitted…

 

[bones_IV]

It seems some folks are anxious to be Protestants, but perhaps it is because they have been taught so little of their Faith since
Vatican II.

 

[scylla]

For Christmas masses, it is not just choir practicing, but some parishes have choirs that sing a few pieces in a parish sing-along before mass starts.

By doing artistic dances does not mean the door is wide open to everything else. It is a form of spirituality through artistic body movements, just one of many ways to pray as what constitutes individual “prayer” is very broad in the wide world.

I understand that some people feel it is a form of spirituality, yet just because it is a form of spirituality it is contrary to Christian belief that we worship God not ourselves.
We cannot do anything except by letting God work through us for God. When we do a performance especially in front of people we bring the attention to ourselves rather than God.

This might feel good and be enjoyable but is only compatible with the belief that we somehow are Jesus and God is not to be worshipped but to be just seen in each other.

This is a common misunderstanding of the transcendence of God and the replacement of God with ourselves.

This is why liturgical dance is so popular, in our narcissistic culture it is popular to seek self praise and pleasure above obedience or humility.

Just because some people find smoking a spiritual experience it doesn’t make it part of Christian thought. I can find quotes from the Bible to support smoking as a form of spirituality, look at Rastafarianism, yet that is contrary to Christianity. Whatever is in the world, just because it is trendy or it makes people feel spiritual doesn’t make it ok to use in a Catholic Church.

I would suggest you read the thread I started a while back on the two views of God which are prevelant today in the Catholic Church. One which is used to attack Christianity and one which is the Catholic view. It is all inter-related.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[puzzleannie]

By doing artistic dances does not mean the door is wide open to everything else. It is a form of spirituality through artistic body movements, just one of many ways to pray as what constitutes individual “prayer” is very broad in the wide world.

perhaps, but it is not liturgy, is not liturgical, and has no place in a liturgical setting, except in the very limited circumstances of cultures where dance is already a legitimate form of worship (you can count those cultures on the fingers of one hand, and none of them is in the West). that is from the Vatican and not a local option deal

in all the times I have been forced to witness this abomination it was all about narcissistic self-expression by singularly untalented persons, clad to the point of public indecency, to provide a photo op for parents, and a means for disgruntled non-ordained personages to insinutate themselves into the liturgy in a role for which the rubrics make no provision. if somebody wants to pray that way on their own in private fine, but the abominable abuse of Christian charity of using this to distort the liturgy is reprehensible and inexcusable.