New and Confused, Marriage Changing

[mommamaree]

Some of the posters seem to miss the point that your husband’s control also will including spanking.
That you are threatened by his authority is wrong and unchristian.
You are not over reacting if you have cause to fear spanking and physical punishment.
That is physical abuse and is against human rights and the law.
You have a right to report that to the police if he physically ‘punishes’ you.
Your husband does not have the right to abuse you.

Many wives of three young children can let some things slip.
That doesn’t make all men controlling.
If your husband is controlling and gets too much control that is very unhealthy. And you shouldn’t have to live in fear of him.
He should search Catholic ways of blessing and helping your marriage.

Of course you are confused and upset.
I can only pray for you, but keep in touch by Private Message if you wish.

Hugs,
Trish

I agree her husband is going way overboard here. I hope that is only because he is desperate. Physical “discipline” of a wife sounds like domestic violence wrapped up in religious language. But we don’t know if her husband subscribes to that aspect of the philosophy. If he does, their priest needs to talk some sense into him, and fast! Husband are not permitted to strike their wives, not or they permitted to treat them like an unruly child who needs a spanking.

 

[Xantippe]

A few more thoughts:

1. The summer is an excellent time to tone down your schedule without any major disruption.
2. Yes, two extracurriculars per kid is too much for a normal family of 4. How about letting the older children keep two and the younger one or two can just do one or none? They still have school and CCD, after all. Use your savings for date night or a class for you or both of you. Bellydancing for you or a dance class for both of you might be fun.
3. Sex twice a month is kind of lame for a healthy couple on the right side of 50.
4. As people have said, your husband is overreacting, but the reason he is overreacting in one direction is that he hasn’t had enough (name removed by moderator)ut into your shared life up to now. Tell him that and apologize and say that the solution is for you to make decisions TOGETHER not for him to take over the dictator role from you.
5. There are lots of good marriage books for you to read together that people will mention.

 

[AussieTrish]

Regarding the Taken in Hand Christian group.

One of the dangers of getting involved in pressure-cooker Christian groups is that they can draw the person deeper in to all it’s initiatives and lead the person ultimately to abandon Catholic faith.
I would be very concerned if my husband became affiliated with this sort of group.

 

[Sunbreak]

I am more inclined to be supportive of the poster than her husband. It sounds to me like this is just a normal progression of mom being short of time with the kids and husband can’t adjust to it. Even if half of the kid activities are eliminated, how much time will this free up? Does it free up time in the evening when the husband is home or just during the day when he’s not there anyway?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I looked up Taken in Hand and it seems very, ahem, wrong.

Unless there are different versions, the first site I saw advocated daily spankings for the wife and being put in the corner as punishments.

So, no, Catholic men do not put their wives in the corner or spank them to punish them.

 

[The_Bucket]

@OP: You may not realize it, OP, but you have gotten responses from two of the absolute all-stars here at CAF in 1ke and theBucket, as far as getting practical, orthodox, and commonsense advice, IMHO (not that my opinion necessarily counts for much).

When you’re calling me an allstar, it’s time to quit. 1ke on the other hand…

 

[The_Bucket]

I agree her husband is going way overboard here. I hope that is only because he is desperate. Physical “discipline” of a wife sounds like domestic violence wrapped up in religious language. But we don’t know if her husband subscribes to that aspect of the philosophy. If he does, their priest needs to talk some sense into him, and fast! Husband are not permitted to strike their wives, not or they permitted to treat them like an unruly child who needs a spanking.

That’s the vibe I got; that he was desperate and looked this up. It’s not like he’s actually tried to implement it. That would be creepy. Seriously, it’s creepy.

But I can understand in desperate times looking at something like that stamped with the big ol’ “We’re a Christian ministry! Really! No we’re not some BDSM/controlling thing dressed up like a Christian thing! We’re the real deal” label and falling for it. At least for a moment.

If it’s gone beyond a discussion and an Internet search, then yes, I’d be more concerned.

 

[Xantippe]

Sunbreak said:

“Even if half of the kid activities are eliminated, how much time will this free up? Does it free up time in the evening when the husband is home or just during the day when he’s not there anyway?”

Since her kids are big (4 and up), a lot of the activities are going to slop over into the evening and interfere with family dinner time. I find that when we have games or evening school events, it consistently interferes with family dinner times, something I deeply resent.

I am personally militantly anti-activity, have only three kids (11, 9 and 1), and yet the scheduling is still intense. During the school year, we do just CCD for two kids, my 11-year-old daughter’s therapeutic horse riding, mandatory school sports one term a year for the 11-year-old, mandatory school evening events, and one-off academic contests, and I find it more than enough, particularly during the term when the 11-year-old has games. There is a noticeable difference between fall term (when we have games) and spring term (when we don’t). We don’t have anything scheduled for the 9-year-old during the school year aside from CCD, but he’ll have to start mandatory sports next year.

 

[losh14]

Let me just offer a note as to the frequency of intimacy. That’s really something that has to be determined by the couple. My wife and I don’t have frequent sex but we enjoy other kinds of intimacy such as massages, cuddling, bubble baths, dancing (yes, in the middle of the kitchen, usually during nightly chores). It’s enough to say “he wants more often” and to note the solution “there’s probably some things in the way that need to be taken care of, and that’s normal.” Sexual intimacy is a sign of health and balance in a marriage, not the sole determinant.

Unless there are different versions, the first site I saw advocated daily spankings for the wife and being put in the corner as punishments.

I only know one guy in my extended group who tried something like this with his wife. She took the business end of a maglite to his face in his sleep. He never bothered her again. While he maintained the story of “I fell off my bike” we were sympathetic … and then the real story came out and all that sympathy melted away like grease from a rotisserie chicken.

Not that I advocate violence of any kind in a marriage, but I have to wonder how viable such a “Biblical” routine would be. Show me one example in Scripture along the lines of “Othniel’s wife was disobedient and lazy, then he took the rod to her, and she was well-behaved and a good wife from that point on. She came to love and respect the bruises as a sign of her husband’s authority”.

 

[MrSnaith]

Let’s not act like the Church rips out part of the Epistles that make some people uncomfortable. Wives are absolutely called to be submissive to their husbands as the Church is submissive to Christ. Husbands, on the other hand, are called to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. You know, the love that ended up with Him on a Cross.

Women actually get off a bit easier here! Men are the ones nailed to the crosses and ordered to die to themselves for their wives.

While the latter is true, the former of this statement is false. It is not part of Catholic theology that wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Rather, they are to be subordinate to their husbands.

The difference seems subtle, but it’s enormous. Submission follows the Islamic model of domination/submission, while the Catholic model follows the model of service/subordination.

The husband is to be a servant of the wife, laying down his life for her, while the wife is to be obedient to his mission (of love for her), but not because this is her “place,” but rather as a deliberate choice of love on her part. And this is exactly what the relationship between the Church and Christ is. He lovingly lays down His life in the service of the Church, freeing her from the weight of evil, while she lovingly obeys His mission to serve and save her. God does not force obedience, as obedience must always be a free act of the will. Likewise, it would be errant for a husband to “discipline” his wife into submission, because that is not the model Christ gave us.

On the one hand, submission implies the domination of the wife by the husband, while on the other hand, subordination implies equality between the husband and the wife, and that the wife freely chooses obedience, while the husband lovingly sacrifices his own desires and needs on her behalf, and in her service.

That’s really what’s going on in Ephesians.

 

[SoccerMom2four]

I am more inclined to be supportive of the poster than her husband. It sounds to me like this is just a normal progression of mom being short of time with the kids and husband can’t adjust to it. Even if half of the kid activities are eliminated, how much time will this free up? Does it free up time in the evening when the husband is home or just during the day when he’s not there anyway?

Thank you. It seems I may have misconstrued things. I am not ignoring my husband. We eat dinner as a family almost every night, we have date nights out. Yes, we could be having more sex, but I have to admit my libido just isn’t what it once was. I don’t know why - age, babies, whatever. It’s not personal but I am sure he takes it personally. I didn’t think two or three times a month was ALL that bad with having four kids in the house.

I don’t let my house get too messy, and it’s neat by many standards, but my husband wants to come home to a perfect house, freshly vacuumed with a hot pot roast on the table. He wants the kids dressed up for dinner, and to be seated with a glass of wine in his hand.

Then he wants the kids to go to bed by 7 (NOT going to happen, we have preteens) so that we can have our evenings to ourselves. I told him that once a month we can send the kids to my mother’s for the night and he said we shouldn’t have to send them away! I can’t win.

Yes I am busy, we all are. No, quitting all our stuff isn’t an option. Busy kids are good kids, in my opinion. Keeps them out of trouble and keeps them feeling good about themselves. They each take one music lesson a week (not optional) and one sport 2-3 days a week. The younger two only play AYSO soccer so it’s just a 3 month commitment anyway. The older kids play competitively but their practices are at the same time. It’s really not like we are gone for hours and hours every day after school.

The Taken in Hand thing is his idea to “get the marriage back under control.” He met a guy. This guy lives this way. Now you are taking me, a college-educated woman who entered into a normal CATHOLIC marriage and I’m supposed to wear dresses every day, cater to my husband constantly, say yes sir no sir and let him discipline me? No dice. Not even close. Not in this life.

I would be fine adding a couple more sexsperiences a month. It’s hard for me to warm to the idea because sex isn’t all that fun for me, I just let him do his business. So yeah I am probably not the sex kitten or Madonna/whore every man wants right? But I am trying my best. When I let him get his business done it is all I can do to not shudder.

 

[AussieTrish]

While the latter is true, the former of this statement is false. It is not part of Catholic theology that wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Rather, they are to be subordinate to their husbands.

The difference seems subtle, but it’s enormous. Submission follows the Islamic model of domination/submission, while the Catholic model follows the model of service/subordination.

The husband is to be a servant of the wife, laying down his life for her, while the wife is to be obedient to his mission (of love for her), but not because this is her “place,” but rather as a deliberate choice of love on her part. And this is exactly what the relationship between the Church and Christ is. He lovingly lays down His life in the service of the Church, freeing her from the weight of evil, while she lovingly obeys His mission to serve and save her. God does not force obedience, as obedience must always be a free act of the will. Likewise, it would be errant for a husband to “discipline” his wife into submission, because that is not the model Christ gave us.

On the one hand, submission implies the domination of the wife by the husband, while on the other hand, subordination implies equality between the husband and the wife, and that the wife freely chooses obedience, while the husband lovingly sacrifices his own desires and needs on her behalf, and in her service.

That’s really what’s going on in Ephesians.

Thank you for your true (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[mommamaree]

Okay, it is good to have more clarification. Regarding the extracurricular activities, I still think that is overscheduled, but that is merely my opinion.

It sounds like you are really putting yourself out for your family, and your husband is not giving to you. Especially with you sharing that, sexually speaking, he does his business and you can barely disguise your shudder at the experience. That is a sign of much deeper problems. Sexual encounters should be wonderful and pleasing for you! That is your right as a wife. Barring any medical issues complicating sexual response, if it is distasteful for you, he is not treating you rightly.
Regarding his expectations outside the bedroom: I am sorry but he is just wrong. Being a mother of four in an active family, with responsibilities for both the home and overseeing the education and upbringing of your children, is a full-time job. There is no way that he can expect you to be his gourmet chef and maid, too. It is unrealistic and cruel to expect so much while giving so little.
Frankly, if you had opened the thread with such frank and revealing statements, I am sure that everyone would have immediately been horrified.

 

[losh14]

OP, it is sufficient for you to say that his expectations and yours aren’t the same. Thank you, again, for being so open, though:

Some thoughts from a husband of almost 10 years:

Yes, we could be having more sex, but I have to admit my libido just isn’t what it once was.

This is common in every marriage, I think. That’s not to say that he can’t do more to help you feel relaxed, able to spend time and have energy with him intimately, but he shouldn’t expect you to be as you were as a newlywed.

I don’t let my house get too messy, and it’s neat by many standards, but my husband wants to come home to a perfect house, freshly vacuumed with a hot pot roast on the table. He wants the kids dressed up for dinner, and to be seated with a glass of wine in his hand.

This sounds appropriate - he can set up the pot roast in a crockpot before he leaves for work in the morning, if you get a half hour to spend on chores you can focus on the dining room, and while you’re finishing dinner he can dress all four kids in their finest and open the wine himself. I think there’s nothing wrong with teaching kids to have good table manners (and I make a point of wearing a collared shirt to dinner, no matter what we’re eating, just to impress upon my kids that dinner is different from snack), and both spouses can work towards this together.

Then he wants the kids to go to bed by 7 (NOT going to happen, we have preteens) so that we can have our evenings to ourselves. I told him that once a month we can send the kids to my mother’s for the night and he said we shouldn’t have to send them away! I can’t win.

I think he should be in charge of bedtime. If he can convince the kids to sack out at 7, that gives him plenty of time to take care of dishes (since you did cook dinner) while you tend to something else, and by 8:30 you both will have finished chores and THEN you can sit down together.

Yes I am busy, we all are. No, quitting all our stuff isn’t an option. Busy kids are good kids, in my opinion.

I agree. It’s a balance that has to be worked out but it must be a balance with activity, social time, family time, spiritual needs and schoolwork. You don’t want kids’ schedules to be only wake up - school - dinner - homework - bed.

The Taken in Hand thing is his idea to “get the marriage back under control.” He met a guy. This guy lives this way. Now you are taking me, a college-educated woman who entered into a normal CATHOLIC marriage and I’m supposed to wear dresses every day, cater to my husband constantly, say yes sir no sir and let him discipline me? No dice. Not even close. Not in this life.

That’s insulting for him to suggest it. “Make time for ourselves”, I like that. “Balance our lives a bit better so we’re more relaxed and really enjoying time with each other” I like that too. Your marriage sounds busy, a little stressed, and maturing so that you’re taking on - and handling - a number of things. He sounds impatient and unrealistic.

An alternative would be for you to go back to work while he runs the household. Maybe even for just a week, so he could see what it’s like, get a handle on how he’d rather do things, and maybe just maybe he’ll come up with about two suggestions on how to do them better and then be grateful that his workday is shorter than yours.

It’s hard for me to warm to the idea because sex isn’t all that fun for me, I just let him do his business. So yeah I am probably not the sex kitten or Madonna/whore every man wants right? But I am trying my best. When I let him get his business done it is all I can do to not shudder.

I think a lot of women struggle with enjoying intimacy as much as men struggle with trying to make intimacy last longer than 23 seconds. Tell him its his job to woo you, to make you feel relaxed, desired, appreciated. Then you can talk about experiences. You carried four kids and, if you nursed them, your body was occupied with things other than intimacy for between 7 and 8 years. I think its fair that he takes the time and patience with you.

 

[AussieTrish]

Some men expect a lot.
The wives live in anxiety, and that alone affects libido, living in anxiety and not being loved for oneself but judged by results.
When I had three little pre-schoolers, he wanted me to write down every ten minutes what I did in the last ten minutes, every day.
Can anyone with three young children write what would make sense to a results driven man!
I just suspect something of this nature in the OP’s husband…

 

[bitterhope]

The bedtime at 7 is not going to happen, but the rest is pretty reasonable. We have dinner every night as a family. There are no exceptions. I have dinner on the table when my husband gets home. Our house is reasonable but I admit not a show piece. We have a few in school, two homeschooled and the rest are preschool or younger. When my husband is home we are intimate much more than 3 times a month. And we have twice the number of children in the house so it is possible to do most of what your husband is asking. I think probably he is only overreacting because he feels his voice has been unheard for so long. I think most likely he will accept compromises if he feel he is being acknowledged. I for one do believe the husband is the head of the family, but the wife is the heart. Things will only work properly if they work together, but the head needs to lead the family in the right direction. Activities are way over rated. Some of mine do activities, but only one per year if they really want to participate. Most choose not to do any. We are involved in Church and CCD classes, but those are done as a family unit not going in several different directions. No one benefits from being pulled in all different ways. Eventually things give out and the unit collapses.

 

[Groo]

It does seem like there are very deep problems in the marriage and that you are just trying to hold on. If you have to keep yourself from shuddering to get through sex, he has to notice that and it has to about kill him on the inside.

His actions are those of a desperate and scared man. Please note I am not excusing his responses, nor do I condone any kind of violence, but he has to be extremely frightened of losing his wife and family.

I fear that your marriage is on the verge of shattering completely. If you don’t trim down some of the activities now and take time for the marriage now (and I don’t mean more sex), you will have to take time later to work on dissolving the marriage. Either talk together more; or seek counseling; see a priest; go on a retreat - something. Because the way things are is just not going to last.

I am so sorry you are going through these trials.

 

[steido01]

While the latter is true, the former of this statement is false. It is not part of Catholic theology that wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Rather, they are to be subordinate to their husbands.

The difference seems subtle, but it’s enormous. Submission follows the Islamic model of domination/submission, while the Catholic model follows the model of service/subordination.

The husband is to be a servant of the wife, laying down his life for her, while the wife is to be obedient to his mission (of love for her), but not because this is her “place,” but rather as a deliberate choice of love on her part. And this is exactly what the relationship between the Church and Christ is. He lovingly lays down His life in the service of the Church, freeing her from the weight of evil, while she lovingly obeys His mission to serve and save her. God does not force obedience, as obedience must always be a free act of the will. Likewise, it would be errant for a husband to “discipline” his wife into submission, because that is not the model Christ gave us.

On the one hand, submission implies the domination of the wife by the husband, while on the other hand, subordination implies equality between the husband and the wife, and that the wife freely chooses obedience, while the husband lovingly sacrifices his own desires and needs on her behalf, and in her service.

That’s really what’s going on in Ephesians.

 

[Irishmom2]

We aren’t going to have them be little toads who aren’t active and involved.

Wow. My kids were toads. Gotta say I agree with everyone else that think your kids are over scheduled. They are young and have plenty of time when they are older to develop talents. Will you force them to do a sport even if they were to absolutely have no interest in sports or no interest in the arts?

Anyway, I would suggest that you and your husband need to compromise. You may need to step it up in some areas, and he may need to let go of some of his more radical thoughts and ways of wanting to run things.

 

[underacloud]

Yes I am busy, we all are. No, quitting all our stuff isn’t an option. Busy kids are good kids, in my opinion. Keeps them out of trouble and keeps them feeling good about themselves. They each take one music lesson a week (not optional) and one sport 2-3 days a week. The younger two only play AYSO soccer so it’s just a 3 month commitment anyway. The older kids play competitively but their practices are at the same time. It’s really not like we are gone for hours and hours every day after school.

Kid’s acticities are one thing. But in your initial post you said PTA. Seriously, if you’re so busy that you struggle to find time as a family and as a couple, then forget about the PTA. Others can handle that.

The Taken in Hand thing is his idea to “get the marriage back under control.” He met a guy. This guy lives this way. Now you are taking me, a college-educated woman who entered into a normal CATHOLIC marriage and I’m supposed to wear dresses every day, cater to my husband constantly, say yes sir no sir and let him discipline me? No dice. Not even close. Not in this life.

Sure, Taken in Hand doesn’t sounds like a good solution. But your husband is looking for some sort of solution. He seems, simply based on your own account, desparate. If you don’t want Taken in Hand to become the solution, you need to offer alternatives. He’s offered something, so the ball is in your court. What are you going to offer back?

I would be fine adding a couple more sexsperiences a month. It’s hard for me to warm to the idea because sex isn’t all that fun for me, I just let him do his business. So yeah I am probably not the sex kitten or Madonna/whore every man wants right? But I am trying my best. When I let him get his business done it is all I can do to not shudder.

Honestly, your attitude to sex seems strange. You think a couple of times a month is not all that bad? You think men want “Madonna/whores”? No. Men, just like women, want intimacy. For some the intimacy preceeds sex, for others sex leads the intimacy. Either way, sex is part of a healthy marriage (in most cases, baring mecidal needs to abstain, etc).

If I were you, I’d take my husband’s desparation on board, acknowledge that he has offered some sort of approach to improving your mariage (yes, it is not the best approach), and now make some effort to find an approach that will work for both of you, together. Some sort of counselling. You parish priest may be a good first port of call. Or Retrouvaille. I don’t know much of it, but others swear by it.