New and Confused, Marriage Changing

[Xantippe]

SoccerMom2four said:

“I don’t let my house get too messy, and it’s neat by many standards, but my husband wants to come home to a perfect house, freshly vacuumed with a hot pot roast on the table. He wants the kids dressed up for dinner, and to be seated with a glass of wine in his hand.”

That’s where the energy for the sex went, presumably.

Have you pointed out that he needs to choose which he wants more, the maid or the amorous wife?

“Then he wants the kids to go to bed by 7 (NOT going to happen, we have preteens) so that we can have our evenings to ourselves. I told him that once a month we can send the kids to my mother’s for the night and he said we shouldn’t have to send them away! I can’t win”

Tell him to ask around the office (or wherever) about kids bedtimes and choose what he wants–the kids at home or a quiet evening with the wife. Around here, our 11-year-old is often still up and doing homework at 10.

“No, quitting all our stuff isn’t an option.”

Quit half of it and see how it goes.

 

[Rau]

Thank you. It seems I may have misconstrued things. I am not ignoring my husband. We eat dinner as a family almost every night, we have date nights out. Yes, we could be having more sex, but I have to admit my libido just isn’t what it once was. I don’t know why - age, babies, whatever. It’s not personal but I am sure he takes it personally. I didn’t think two or three times a month was ALL that bad with having four kids in the house.

I don’t let my house get too messy, and it’s neat by many standards, but my husband wants to come home to a perfect house, freshly vacuumed with a hot pot roast on the table. He wants the kids dressed up for dinner, and to be seated with a glass of wine in his hand.

Then he wants the kids to go to bed by 7 (NOT going to happen, we have preteens) so that we can have our evenings to ourselves. I told him that once a month we can send the kids to my mother’s for the night and he said we shouldn’t have to send them away! I can’t win.

Yes I am busy, we all are. No, quitting all our stuff isn’t an option. Busy kids are good kids, in my opinion. Keeps them out of trouble and keeps them feeling good about themselves. They each take one music lesson a week (not optional) and one sport 2-3 days a week. The younger two only play AYSO soccer so it’s just a 3 month commitment anyway. The older kids play competitively but their practices are at the same time. It’s really not like we are gone for hours and hours every day after school.

The Taken in Hand thing is his idea to “get the marriage back under control.” He met a guy. This guy lives this way. Now you are taking me, a college-educated woman who entered into a normal CATHOLIC marriage and I’m supposed to wear dresses every day, cater to my husband constantly, say yes sir no sir and let him discipline me? No dice. Not even close. Not in this life.

I would be fine adding a couple more sexsperiences a month. It’s hard for me to warm to the idea because sex isn’t all that fun for me, I just let him do his business. So yeah I am probably not the sex kitten or Madonna/whore every man wants right? But I am trying my best. When I let him get his business done it is all I can do to not shudder.

When I read your first post, I was pretty certain their was insufficient information to form a view on what was going on - I was going to jump in and ask you to elaborate on exactly the issues that your husband is unhappy about. I was very surprised by some of the posts (particularly from 1ke) that so quickly summed up the situation and decided you need to re-arrange after school activities!

The post above is very helpful in filling out the picture. Your description of what your husband would like sounds as though he wants a very comfortable life. And what a fortunate man he is to be able to be home like clockwork (by around 6pm it seems?), to be served dinner, kiss the kids goodnight and then to look forward to a few hours lying around on the chaise lounge in front of the TV, prior to tumbling into bed with his beautiful wife. A lovely dream…

Your attitude to sex is of concern. It is not unheard of for a woman to have a low libido, where the physical ‘need’ is limited or non-existent. But, in a loving marriage, that does not mean that sex is avoided (I assume it is not painful?), or that the experience lacks love and warmth. It does not mean that the woman will not “have fun”. It certainly should not be distasteful. Lack of libido is NO explanation for why you describe sex as “letting him get his business done”. That is also appalling and I hope you can give more consideration to why you feel that way.

 

[Rau]

Okay, it is good to have more clarification. Regarding the extracurricular activities, I still think that is overscheduled, but that is merely my opinion.

My kids each have a game of sport on the weekend, one practice during the week, and 3 more activities each per week. [At this stage, they enjoy them all.] They get extra homework from us, given the prevailing modest demands made by schools. This is possible while they are young, but will need to wind back over time as homework/study grows.

My wife and I certainly don’t get the “free evenings” together that the OP’s husband seems to expect, but this should not be the cause of a marriage falling apart. I think the couple need to look more deeply than that.

 

[Xantippe]

Rau said:

“My wife and I certainly don’t get the “free evenings” together that the OP’s husband seems to expect, but this should not be the cause of a marriage falling apart. I think the couple need to look more deeply than that.”

Yes, a family with big kids is lucky to have them all settled down for the night by 10.

There was a brief period where I had a preschooler who started going to bed at 6:30 every night after he gave up his afternoon nap, but that’s only a sweet memory.

 

[Rau]

Sure, Taken in Hand doesn’t sounds like a good solution. But your husband is looking for some sort of solution. He seems, simply based on your own account, desparate. If you don’t want Taken in Hand to become the solution, you need to offer alternatives. He’s offered something, so the ball is in your court. What are you going to offer back?
…
If I were you, I’d take my husband’s desparation on board, acknowledge that he has offered some sort of approach to improving your mariage (yes, it is not the best approach), and now make some effort to find an approach that will work for both of you, together. Some sort of counselling. You parish priest may be a good first port of call. Or Retrouvaille. I don’t know much of it, but others swear by it.

I think it’s a stretch to characterise the husband’s interest in “Taken in Hand” to be a genuine, well-meaning search for a means to improve his marriage, by a desperate man. It could equally well be an attempt to “bully” or “guilt” his wife into becoming the dutiful servant and compliant wife that he imagines he deserves. We don’t know.

Counselling is, however, a good suggestion, though I’m not sure how big an effort the couple have made to simply communicate with each other about the difficulties they are having.

 

[underacloud]

I think it’s a stretch to characterise the husband’s interest in “Taken in Hand” to be a genuine, well-meaning search for a means to improve his marriage, by a desperate man. It could equally well be an attempt to “bully” or “guilt” his wife into becoming the dutiful servant and compliant wife that he imagines he deserves. We don’t know.

Counselling is, however, a good suggestion, though I’m not sure how big an effort the couple have made to simply communicate with each other about the difficulties they are having.

Yes, perhaps “desparate” is going to far. But the OP herself seemed to describe it as a fairly genuine attempt, at least initially, to improve the marriage:

My husband is an “internet searching” type and he was searching for ways to improve our marriage and last year got very involved with Taken in Hand.

Anyway…I think the reason why counselling is now important is that the husband has got some strong ideas and will probably need some third party perspective to set him/them on the right track. While communication between the couple is certainly important, I get the impression that it’s snowballing for them and they need some help. Indeed, if the husband is (consciously or not) attempting to bully the OP, then a third party is even more necessary.

 

[SoccerMom2four]

Your attitude to sex is of concern. It is not unheard of for a woman to have a low libido, where the physical ‘need’ is limited or non-existent. But, in a loving marriage, that does not mean that sex is avoided (I assume it is not painful?), or that the experience lacks love and warmth. It does not mean that the woman will not “have fun”. It certainly should not be distasteful. Lack of libido is NO explanation for why you describe sex as “letting him get his business done”. That is also appalling and I hope you can give more consideration to why you feel that way.

Well it’s not painful, it’s just blah. Letting someone get their business handled. I am just tired, over it. I have no desire at all and I don’t see the point. I know he wants the release but I always just feel like a hole in a slab of meat. I don’t have sexual pleasure (yes, I have seen a doctor, I have nerve damage from my second delivery.) I just can think of 3000 things I’d rather be doing than having sex! Reading, sleeping, having a glass of wine, talking on the phone, cleaning, grocery shopping, spreading steer manure on the flower beds, taking out the garbage, talking to Jehovas Witnesses at the door… I have done my duty and destroyed my body to give four kids and I think my body has done ENOUGH. Not to mention I NEVER want to be pregnant again - EVER.

The Taken in Hand business is so foul, and I think the reason he wants to “transform our marriage” by this program is that the wife is supposed to joyously submit to sex at the drop of a hat and act like it’s the best thing since the Swiffer.

 

[Rau]

Well it’s not painful, it’s just blah. Letting someone get their business handled. I am just tired, over it. I have no desire at all and I don’t see the point. I know he wants the release but I always just feel like a hole in a slab of meat. I don’t have sexual pleasure (yes, I have seen a doctor, I have nerve damage from my second delivery.) I just can think of 3000 things I’d rather be doing than having sex! Reading, sleeping, having a glass of wine, talking on the phone, cleaning, grocery shopping, spreading steer manure on the flower beds, taking out the garbage, talking to Jehovas Witnesses at the door… I have done my duty and destroyed my body to give four kids and I think my body has done ENOUGH. Not to mention I NEVER want to be pregnant again - EVER.

I understand that must be difficult for you. I assume your husband is fully aware? Does he show understanding of your situation?

Sexual intimacy is not just about copulation. Do you as a couple want to be close, to cuddle, to hold each other, stroke each other - it does not require sexual desire or arousal to desire these things. Copulation in the absence of these feelings or emotions would make at least one party feel like a piece of meat. I sense that you don’t really have much desire for simple closeness, nor for pleasing your husband (intimately).

 

[thewanderer]

Just in case anyone is inclined to view the OP’s husband’s interest in this particular kind of relationship lightly here is a short passage I found from an article on their website, quoted in a comment by someone who agrees with it wholeheartedly.

Authority
Submitted by advoca on Tue, 21/06/2005 - 08:17
The boss wrote:

Suppose a woman behaves unacceptably in some way, and the man takes the woman in hand and gives her a severe, painful spanking to show her who’s boss and to let her know that he will not tolerate such behaviour. No matter how much it hurts at the time, unless something has gone wrong, the end result is that the woman feels a sense of submissive peace, love, a desire to please the man. She feels his, and she feels strong sexual desire for him. She might not feel this immediately after the spanking—the effect is not that direct, it works in a much more general way, assuring her of his authority over her. It is that authority—and the woman’s awareness of and experience of that authority—that produces and maintains so powerfully those feelings in the woman. For the women I am discussing here, it is not spanking in itself that has that effect, it is the ever-present authority that the spanking represents.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. I do so agree. This is a perfect way of expressing it.

note: DD refers to domestic discipline

A different way is to look at the actual relationship practice of those who practice DD. I believe a couple will incorporate discipline dynamics first and foremost as way of enhancing their physical and emotional connection. This premise allows for all the different kinds of spankings and discipline possible, and also says without apology that the primary intent of all discipline, no matter its form, is to enrich the sexual and intimate connection a couple experiences together in what I call Intimate Domestic Discipline.

This “Taken in hand” way of life, from the little research I have now put into it seems to be a way of bringing some sexual fetish into a larger element of your relationship, a fetish for men of being in complete control, and for the woman of having someone hold that much authority over her. The fact that the husband would even consider this as a legitimate path for his marriage is extremely alarming, especially since his wife is adamantly opposed to it.

Having said that, OP, the fact that you view relations with your husband an unpleasant duty where you allow him to do his business and then shudder at the thought of what all just happened is indicative of extremely deep marital problems. It is extremely unlikely that your husband is the only one whose actions have led you to where your marriage is right now. Even if your husband were not looking into “Taken in hand” your marriage would still be clearly in huge trouble. And, I’m willing to bet it is all the talk from his friend and from the website about how much the sex improved and about how passionate his wife will become, how much she will desire him that is a very large part of the pull for him right now.

The fact that you view sex as a chore and something to shudder about is damaging your relationship and leading your husband to grasp for any idea that looks like it would improve that. You two need to sit down and have a deep and honest talk about this. Your husband wants to have a deep and intimate relationship with you, he is just going about it the wrong way. You both need to take some time to listen to each other, intimately, patiently, and respectfully and to do so with an attitude of trying to find a way to make your relationship intimate again (even if the number of times you have sex does not increase), and go from there. Maybe one thing to bring up and point out is the fact that “taken in hand” insists over and over again that it has to be mutually consensual, not just at the beginning but throughout as well as that it is not for everyone. Let your husband know, when taking your turn to speak, that while you really want to work on fixing your relationship and bringing back the deep intimacy you two once had you just are not ok with this kind of relationship.

Seeing a marriage counselor would also be an extremely wise move for you two right now.

I hope you can work this out.

 

[SoccerMom2four]

I understand that must be difficult for you. I assume your husband is fully aware? Does he show understanding of your situation?

Sexual intimacy is not just about copulation. Do you as a couple want to be close, to cuddle, to hold each other, stroke each other - it does not require sexual desire or arousal to desire these things. Copulation in the absence of these feelings or emotions would make at least one party feel like a piece of meat. I sense that you don’t really have much desire for simple closeness, nor for pleasing your husband (intimately).

I don’t really like any kind of touching. Hugging, kissing, “snuggling” or whatever are just not my personality. I don’t really see why any adults would do those things? I am fine hugging and touching my kids of course. But I mean, why would two grown adults want to touch each other as though one were a pet cat? No thanks, I need my space in bed. I feel trapped and hot when anyone tries to hug me. A handshake suffices!

 

[CathConvert2013]

I have many of the same feelings that you do soccermom, and I feel so sad that you also feel the same fear and loathing when it comes to intimacy. I was sexually abused as a child and I have been told I have PTSD. I didn’t always hate sex and intimacy so much… I have spoken about the event in confession but I think this warrants revisiting as well as many other issues. You are in my prayers.

 

[Rau]

I don’t really like any kind of touching. Hugging, kissing, “snuggling” or whatever are just not my personality. I don’t really see why any adults would do those things? I am fine hugging and touching my kids of course. But I mean, why would two grown adults want to touch each other as though one were a pet cat? No thanks, I need my space in bed. I feel trapped and hot when anyone tries to hug me. A handshake suffices!

Has it always been thus? Your courting and engagement time? Early married life? I recall your first post suggested that at some point - 9 years into your marriage - things “changed” between you and your husband? This would have been about 5 years after the medical damage associated with your 2nd child.

Are you saying that for the first 9 years of your marriage, you were both happy and contented, despite your preference for shaking hands to cuddling, and with your physical injury impacting the last 5 of those 9 years, **and then **something changed?

 

[SoccerMom2four]

Has it always been thus? Your courting and engagement time? Early married life? I recall your first post suggested that at some point - 9 years into your marriage - things “changed” between you and your husband? This would have been about 5 years after the medical damage associated with your 2nd child.

Are you saying that for the first 9 years of your marriage, you were both happy and contented, despite your preference for shaking hands to cuddling, and with your physical injury impacting the last 5 of those 9 years, **and then **something changed?

Well I have never been a huge snuggler but I was different when dating and in the beginning. It was really the first kid that changed me, getting worse as we had more. I feel like I already had a small capacity for intimacy and it has been sucked up by the needs of the kids for me physically. I don’t dote on them, but its just the worry of being a mom and all the things that go with it made me so tired. I just don’t want to be touched anymore, I am touched-out. Since sex isn’t pleasurable, I just have no drive at all for it because I find the physical closeness just gross and overkill.

 

[SouthCatholic]

I don’t really like any kind of touching. Hugging, kissing, “snuggling” or whatever are just not my personality. I don’t really see why any adults would do those things? I am fine hugging and touching my kids of course. But I mean, why would two grown adults want to touch each other as though one were a pet cat? No thanks, I need my space in bed. I feel trapped and hot when anyone tries to hug me. ** A handshake suffices**!

I call troll!!!

No one can possibly believe a handshake is sufficient between spouses!

 

[Rau]

Well I have never been a huge snuggler but I was different when dating and in the beginning. It was really the first kid that changed me, getting worse as we had more. I feel like I already had a small capacity for intimacy and it has been sucked up by the needs of the kids for me physically. I don’t dote on them, but its just the worry of being a mom and all the things that go with it made me so tired. I just don’t want to be touched anymore, I am touched-out. Since sex isn’t pleasurable, I just have no drive at all for it because I find the physical closeness just gross and overkill.

Then it seems you would acknowledge your husband has witnessed a huge change in you (which from his point of view is quite negative…) over the years. And it **may **also be that he has not stepped up to the plate as the demands of parenting have increased.

In light of the following statement you made…:

“But I mean, why would two grown adults want to touch each other as though one were a pet cat?”

…it would appear that you can see no reason for your husband to be distressed about your lack of interest in intimacy (and I mean more broadly than copulation)? An inability to see from the other’s point of view is a problem.

Evidently, if you wish your marriage to continue, or to make things somewhat better, both of you need to do some serious work. Based on the prevailing tone of your posts, and your contemplation about “taking your kids and leaving”, you sound quite ambivalent about your marriage. Probably you should put some time into thinking about that. Subsequently, professional help would seem essential.

 

[Rau]

I call troll!!!

No one can possibly believe a handshake is sufficient between spouses!

To be honest, that seems a good chance. I thought it better to see it through and come to a clean end that gives the benefit of the doubt.

 

[AussieTrish]

I call troll!!!

No one can possibly believe a handshake is sufficient between spouses!

SouthCatholic we need to avoid the lack of charity in calling others trolls. If you have a concern, alert the moderator by way of the red triangle.

Not everyone likes intimacy. We’ve had posters before who don’t enjoy it. People with a degree of autism don’t either. Recently I read an article of the issue when one half of a couple dislikes physical intimacy.

My husband was happy to live without hugs for about 25 years. I’d end up saying, “Please hug me …” He’d say, “What for?” And fail to give any hug.
He’s sick now and sometimes in pain, and does find hugs comforting sometimes, but it took a lot of years.

The heart can die to an extent, when there has been too much hurt, too much stress, and when one isn’t genuinely loved for long enough.

If you can’t feel anything, you still owe the charity of responding to the spouse with kindness and respect, not as if they are an inconvenience forcing themself on you.
It’s insulting really to just “suffer” it if the demand is reasonable.

 

[Cat]

It does seem like there are very deep problems in the marriage and that you are just trying to hold on. If you have to keep yourself from shuddering to get through sex, he has to notice that and it has to about kill him on the inside.

His actions are those of a desperate and scared man. Please note I am not excusing his responses, nor do I condone any kind of violence, but he has to be extremely frightened of losing his wife and family.

I fear that your marriage is on the verge of shattering completely. If you don’t trim down some of the activities now and take time for the marriage now (and I don’t mean more sex), you will have to take time later to work on dissolving the marriage. Either talk together more; or seek counseling; see a priest; go on a retreat - something. Because the way things are is just not going to last.

I am so sorry you are going through these trials.

I don’t agree that this marriage has “deep problems,” or is “on the verge of shattering completely.”

Think of each marriage as a journey. As a couple travels along, they come to places that challenge them, and they have to figure these places out and come up with a strategy for getting through that place and still having a good time on the journey.

The baby years are one of those places. Having babies truly changes everything. Each couple needs to sit down and figure out how they’re going to continue to be a happy couple through all the lost sleep, more expenses, little free time alone, etc.

The next “place” that many couples enter is “the young children years.” The babies grow out of diapers and bottles, and they’re energetic, curious, and have unique personalities. The parents have to figure this “place” out. They have to find a way to BALANCE the needs of each individual child against the needs of the husband and wife. I think that activities outside the home are wonderful for children; no longer do we live in a time when children can flourish by playing with all the neighborhood kids in the vacant lot (chances are good that all the neighborhood children are never home, and there is no vacant lot).

These “young children years” are often the best years of life! Raising children is so much fun, and watching them develop skills and knowledge and faith is so rewarding. But it’s also exhausting and very time-consuming and emotionally-wrenching. (Think of a time when your child has lost the soccer game or bombed at the piano recital–heartbreaking, and the parents have to comfort the child without coddling him/her! Very hard!)

So the OP and her husband have to figure out a way to navigate through this “place” in their marriage, and they WILL do that. I don’t think that the husband’s approach is the right way. My personal feeling is that the couple doesn’t have to give up any of the children’s activities; I know many families who have a much longer list, and they manage to balance it all and have a jolly time in their homes!

The couple needs to take regular timeouts and sit down and analyze this “place” in their life, and figure out a STRATEGY to deal with it and to have fun dealing with it, and to remain happily married (not brother and sister!) while navigating through this place.

One thing–this “place” of “young children years” will pass like lightening. It seems that it will last forever, but one day this couple will wake up and realize that there are no more soccer games or piano lessons to drive to because the kids are old enough to drive themselves, and they are busy with 50 other activities and Mom and Dad couldn’t possibly keep up. It’s a nice moment when parents realize that “we made it! We’re through the young children years!” But it’s also bittersweet, because parents will realize how much fun those years were.

I have actually written my figure skating novels in large part because I wanted to capture those wonderful years when my daughters were figure skating every day. I wanted to remember those years and be able to re-live them. Lots of parents who read my novels tell me that they bring back so many great memories!

The next “place” in this couple’s life will be the “Teen Years,” and this place is much harder than the “Young Children Years.” The couple needs to learn the skills NOW of how to develop strategies to get through the various places in their lives.

And of course, let’s all pray that this couple doesn’t ever have to face one of the truly hard places, like “Child Diagnosed With Cancer Place,” or “Loss of Job and Financial Security Place.” Those soccer games and piano lessons and crazy schedules and eating hot dogs for dinner while wearing play clothes will seem like heaven compared to the hell of these horrific “places.”

This couple will make it. They just need that “time out” to discuss all the options and come up with some options that will actually work for BOTH of them and their children.

 

[Cat]

OP, I don’t have a lot of time right now to deal with the sex question.

But I want to tell you that you are playing with fire to dismiss your husband’s very real need for sex.

Here’s what I suggest: pretend.

“What?!” you say! “What?”! say all the other people on this thread.

Yes, pretend. It works. Here’s what you do. PRETEND that your husband is the Ultimate Lover and you are really enjoying his company and his caresses. Moan, whisper, etc.

Don’t fake an orgasm. Since you are injured, he will know that you are faking it.

But fake PLEASURE in his lovemaking.

Amazingly, what you will discover if you continue to do this is that you really ARE enjoying lovemaking with your husband.

I would suggest that you stop thinking of it as “sex” and refer to the time as “lovemaking.”

This technique works for many situations in human behavior. E.g., if someone wants to lose weight, they “pretend” that they are thin, healthy people who always make good food choices and love working out everyday. Obviously they aren’t that kind of person, but what happens if they keep “pretending” is that they become fitter, thinner, healthier peole who truly DO love salads instead of cake!

It works for fearful situations. A person is afraid, and they pretend that they aren’t, and they discover that the really CAN do the thing that they were afraid of.

I’m very serious about this. I’ve been married for 35 years, and I’ve seen this “technique” work over and over again.

I cannot emphasize how very very IMPORTANT sex is to a husband. A lot of secular media ridicules a male sex drive, and tells jokes about a man’s brain between his legs. Ignore all this garbage. GOD created men to have a strong sex drive, and we wives need to honor God’s creation and work to honor our husbands by taking his need for sex seriously and doing whatever we need to do.

So you have problems with physical contact. So do I. But you must work to overcome this when it comes to lovemaking, or you are in grave danger of losing your husband to another woman or to virtual women online in a porn setting. There are men who have a strong enough faith to resist these temptations, but many men just can’t handle a marriage with little or no lovemaking, or lovemaking that is done grudgingly by a wife who appears not to love them.

For men, their sense of being loved is wrapped up in physical lovemaking. Flowers, a good meal, a glass of wine and jazz music–all of this is nice, but it doesn’t do it for a man.

Please heed what I am saying. Pretend that you are wildly in love with your husband and that you love making love with him . Eventually the feelings will become real, not pretend.

 

[mommamaree]

I don’t have time for more than a quick reply, but I wanted to echo Cat’s latest post. She uses the word pretend, but not in the sense of dishonesty. This is in the sense of throwing yourself wholeheartedly into an experience and attempting to make the very best of it, knowing the power of the mind over the body. If you, SoccerMom, make a determination within yourself that you will get enjoyment out of intimacy with your husband, and you tell him that you want him to make love to you, and you fully engage your mind and your senses, the body will follow. I assume you love this man you married and had four children with. So in your thoughts and words, ONLY refer to the marital act as lovemaking, never ever call it “business” again. Then encourage him, focus upon him and what makes him attractive. Part of married intimacy is enjoying gazing at your spouse and noticing how handsome or beautiful they are. Even if it takes some time for your body to respond, at least your mind can be engaged. Tell your husband to slow down and help you catch up before proceeding to vaginal intercourse. No wife should ever feel like a piece of meat and no good husband would be okay with that.

Honestly, I think what really needs to happen is for you both to sit down and be totally honest with each other about your fears and disappointments, and open up about your dreams and hopes. Then you can console each other and make a new plan together.