New and Confused, Marriage Changing

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Quite right cat and mommamaree. I don’t speak for every man, but I do speak for myself and I’ll say I fit the stereotypical “associate sex with love” guy. It’s not about “release.” It’s not about “urges.” Is there some base emotion in there? Sure. But there’s some base emotion involved in women liking a clean, tidy and “homey” type home. That’s called nesting.

I very much associate my wife’s sexual desire with her feelings of love towards me. I absolutely, 100% feel more loved when she is in her fertile period, even if we can’t have sex because we’re avoiding conception. Even if we can’t have sex, or are choosing not to for a time, the fact that she wants to makes me feel loved and wanted. It puts a pep in my step for the day. It’s probably the same way a woman feels when she’s being wooed in other ways by a man. When someone writes a poem for her, sings a song to her, buys her flowers or cooks a special dinner… that’s how it feels when my wife acts, well, physically amorous. Or shows that she wants to be physically amorous even if that’s not possible right now.

During the less than fertile times, it can be a bit of a chore, I get that. Hormones are a big deal and I don’t want to downplay that. But her making an effort to get in the mood usually, not always but usually, eventually gets her into the mood! It’s not quite fake-it-till-you-make-it, but it’s something like that. And emphasis on the “til you make it” part!
 
I agree that sex is important for men, but I’m not sure advising the OP to pretend the sex is good is the right next step.

She seems barely able to tolerate him at this point, and not without good reason. Frankly, I am amazed she is intimate with him as frequently as she is. Something like counseling, more non-sexual time together, or just setting expectations for the marriage seems like a more appropriate next step to me.

I still think the OP’s husband is acting out of desperation. The marriage may or may not be in full crisis mode, but desperate people do desperate things. And if he keeps insisting on this weird program he is going to push his wife out the door.
 
I think the OP really should see a professional (counselor, therapist, priest). I’m not sure how much any of us can help. There seem to be many problems in this marriage, compounded with the husband wanting to become part of a alternate subculture.

There isn’t any way to reconcile this “taken by hand” stuff with Catholic marriage teaching. The website advocates corporal punishment for the wife and has articles with titles advocating spousal rape. I could see just perousing the site might be a near occasion of sin.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I think the OP really should see a professional (counselor, therapist, priest). I’m not sure how much any of us can help. There seem to be many problems in this marriage, compounded with the husband wanting to become part of a alternate subculture.

There isn’t any way to reconcile this “taken by hand” stuff with Catholic marriage teaching. The website advocates corporal punishment for the wife and has articles with titles advocating spousal rape.
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Like I said earlier, if he’s actually done more than simply searched about it online and talked about it, that’s a whole different matter. The OP has not said anything to contradict that. She has never indicated that he’s actually attempted to implement it.

And Groo…
She seems barely able to tolerate him at this point, and not without good reason. Frankly, I am amazed she is intimate with him as frequently as she is. Something like counseling, more non-sexual time together, or just setting expectations for the marriage seems like a more appropriate next step to me.
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Why? Because he searched that? It sounds like that was the latest thing to happen and spurred this thread. It seemed to me that the lack of intimacy was what was going on for a much longer time.

I can understand the idea of not trying to pretend the sex is good. I’m actually not advocating that at all. I’m saying she should make an effort to stir herself up as it were. From a place of love for her husband and maybe that will translate to desire.

Her position on sexual intimacy sounds downright Puritan, if not worse. Just something to let him “do his business?” That’s a very, very sick way of looking at it. It’s the other extreme of what the husband is advocating for, to be quite honest. A marital relationship is different from all other relationships specifically because of the sexual element. Both spouses here seem to have some extremely unhealthy views about the nature of the marital relationship.
 
Groo said:
I still think the OP’s husband is acting out of desperation. The marriage may or may not be in full crisis mode, but desperate people do desperate things. And if he keeps insisting on this weird program he is going to push his wife out the door.
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It does sound like a circle though. His wife will not give him what he wants and she closes herself off, then he acts out of desperation and possibly aggravation. Her response is to want to flee, his, is to try and pull her back into his life by enforcing new “rules.”

Neither one of them is right, and neither appear to hear each other. For this reason, I also think counseling is in order.
 
Groo said:
I agree that sex is important for men, but I’m not sure advising the OP to pretend the sex is good is the right next step.

She seems barely able to tolerate him at this point, and not without good reason. Frankly, I am amazed she is intimate with him as frequently as she is. Something like counseling, more non-sexual time together, or just setting expectations for the marriage seems like a more appropriate next step to me.

I still think the OP’s husband is acting out of desperation. The marriage may or may not be in full crisis mode, but desperate people do desperate things. And if he keeps insisting on this weird program he is going to push his wife out the door.
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I agree that the husband is out of line with this Taken in Hand nonsense. It sounds more like a justification for domestic abuse or acting out fetishes in daily life, than a recipe to restore a troubled marriage.

However, there are multiple concerns here. If the OP is going to participate in a sexual encounter with her husband, and she has been doing so, then she deserves to enjoy it, too. And her marriage may be benefited by an improvement in her ability to respond. When a marriage is in trouble, with problems in several areas, it can be good to take action on a variety of levels. The Taken in Hand ideas need to be dropped immediately, or a priest or deacon or marriage counselor needs to be consulted in order to talk sense into the husband. But attempting to connect more deeply with her husband, and share more affection with each other, can help, too, as long as she feels safe with him still after his flirting with a dangerous philosophy. That is why I also advocated a serious conversation as the best thing to do first.
 
mommamaree said:
If the OP is going to participate in a sexual encounter with her husband, and she has been doing so, then she deserves to enjoy it, too.
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I think there’s more to it than even that actually. She seems to not care that she’s “touched out” or that there are hundreds of other activities that she’d rather be doing. Not only does she deserve to enjoy sexual intimacy, she needs to make that a priority. Or at least acknowledge that not caring about sexual intimacy is a big danger signal.

Again, the marital relationship is different from other relationships because of the sexual aspect. That’s why people who are incapable of sex are not allowed to marry in the Church. The fact that her lack of enjoyment doesn’t bother her… should bother her! Big time! It’s a sign that there’s something wrong with her, with her husband, with the marriage or all three. Given the actions laid out in this thread, I’m saying it’s all three.

She repeatedly put other things before the marriage and and seems to have an indifference to actually connecting with her husband. She has made sexual intimacy into just another chore to “keep up the marriage” the way any of us would be vacuuming the floor to “keep up the house.” That’s a sign of a major problem.

His reaction only exacerbates the issue and throws up even more blockades to actual connection because now he’s scared his wife with some “domestic discipline” insanity.

Yes, counseling would be in order here. I’m hopeful the husband can be quickly disabused of this notion since it seems to be something that has cropped up only very recently. Maybe I’m wrong. I really hope I’m not, because that’s some creepy stuff.

But OP, I hate to say it, you might have a longer road since your actions seem to be a long-standing pattern.
 
The_Bucket said:
Like I said earlier, if he’s actually done more than simply searched about it online and talked about it, that’s a whole different matter. The OP has not said anything to contradict that. She has never indicated that he’s actually attempted to implement it.

.
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In the OP she used the phrase “very involved in taken by hand” which implies more than just an internet search.

I spent about 10 minutes googling it, and feel like i shouldnt have this knowledge. This fellow searched and then told her that’s what he wanted to do. He didn’t discern “not a good idea”.

I strongly believe that none of us are qualified to give advice on this. They need to see a professional.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
In the OP she used the phrase “very involved in taken by hand” which implies more than just an internet search.

I spent about 10 minutes googling it, and feel like i shouldnt have this knowledge. This fellow searched and then told her that’s what he wanted to do. He didn’t discern “not a good idea”.

I strongly believe that none of us are qualified to give advice on this. They need to see a professional.
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I more meant that I think he’s not fully attached to this idea and that someone yes more qualified than random people on the Internet will be able to disabuse him of it quickly. A professional be it a therapist or a member of the clergy. I’d argue for both.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
In the OP she used the phrase “very involved in taken by hand” which implies more than just an internet search.

I spent about 10 minutes googling it, and feel like i shouldnt have this knowledge. This fellow searched and then told her that’s what he wanted to do. He didn’t discern “not a good idea”.

I strongly believe that none of us are qualified to give advice on this. They need to see a professional.
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I was considering the idea of googling it, because I only knew what was being shared here about it. After reading your post, I have reconsidered it. Eyes cannot unsee, and this stuff sounds very unpleasant. If it is half as bad as you say here, then I cannot imagine an internet forum will be able to help.
 
Just do what he says
  1. lose ten pounds
  2. grow your hair long but get like, a real deep conditioner so you don’t have to waste time combing it out and tie it back and don’t comb it, wind it into a bun and don’t wash it every day because long hair is such an extra task…
  3. get a house cleaner if you have to-- you are really dealing with a lot
  4. make yourself attractive, whatever you need to do…
These may be warning signs he will give you more “things he doesn’t like” if you are ok with these things. But it’s a test. YOUR husband has said: will you do these few simple things? Will you: 1. lose ten pounds 2.grow ur hair back (process 1 year) 3.clean the house.

And you say, 1.ok, sure, I will 1.lose ten pounds. 2.grow my hair out, and 3.clean the house.

That’s the bottom line. It’s business details. Don’t take it personally. If you are good with small things, you will be good with larger matters.

So, take it like that and with a grain of salt. If the Lord came to you and asked: go with me one mile? You would go with him 2, right?

This aren’t sinful questions. BEWARE if he asks you to do anything stupid, sinful, or lazy, or demeaning/discredible/lying/cheating/etc. He may be a bit of a control person. He may get abusive, but right now, it’s not certain. That is yet to be fully seen. Yes, he might turn into some sort of abusive controlling animal. But right now, this is not out of line, is it? Seems pretty ok.
 
lily22 said:
Just do what he says
  1. lose ten pounds
  2. grow your hair long but get like, a real deep conditioner so you don’t have to waste time combing it out and tie it back and don’t comb it, wind it into a bun and don’t wash it every day because long hair is such an extra task…
  3. get a house cleaner if you have to-- you are really dealing with a lot
  4. make yourself attractive, whatever you need to do…
These may be warning signs he will give you more “things he doesn’t like” if you are ok with these things. But it’s a test. YOUR husband has said: will you do these few simple things? Will you: 1. lose ten pounds 2.grow ur hair back (process 1 year) 3.clean the house.

And you say, 1.ok, sure, I will 1.lose ten pounds. 2.grow my hair out, and 3.clean the house.

That’s the bottom line. It’s business details. Don’t take it personally. If you are good with small things, you will be good with larger matters.

So, take it like that and with a grain of salt. If the Lord came to you and asked: go with me one mile? You would go with him 2, right?

This aren’t sinful questions. BEWARE if he asks you to do anything stupid, sinful, or lazy, or demeaning/discredible/lying/cheating/etc. He may be a bit of a control person. He may get abusive, but right now, it’s not certain. That is yet to be fully seen. Yes, he might turn into some sort of abusive controlling animal. But right now, this is not out of line, is it? Seems pretty ok.
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I don’t have ten pounds to lose.

Long hair isn’t flattering on me. I am over 35. It just looks stringy and tacky.

I do clean the house. Sometimes it’s not “magazine perfect” but it is NEVER a disaster. At any given time, I would be happy to welcome my neighbor over for a cup of coffee and not be embarrassed.
 
Groo said:
I agree that sex is important for men, but I’m not sure advising the OP to pretend the sex is good is the right next step.
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First of all, sex is important to both men and women, but I agree with the general point of this statement.

Advising OP to “pretend” in order to assuage her husband isn’t the right direction. I’m not saying that she shouldn’t do this. Rather, this isn’t direction she should be getting from someone else, especially a group of anonymous strangers.

If she loves her husband, but isn’t always interested in sexual intercourse, sometimes it’s a good thing to do this anyway out of love for him. But that has to come from within her, not from advice on a web forum. It has to be something she wants to do for him, rather something done to “get him off her back” so to speak.

But before this can happen, they need to talk, discuss, maybe get counselling. In additional to all of that, though, I again proffer the suggestion of taking part in a Retrouvaille course. In order to properly order their family dynamics, they first need to know what that should look like. And getting disjointed advice from numerous people online isn’t going to give them that.
 
Ok, no one seems to get it. Taken in Hand is a kinky sex website mascarading as biblical teaching. That is all it is. It is about S&M. It is about Master/Slave type relationships. It is a pseudobiblical resource for men spanking their wives. With links to websites where you can buy new sexy paddles and straps to beat your wife with. That is ALL it is.

Now, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with adverturous sex. My husband and I enjoy some roleplaying. But that’s what it is, roleplaying. As far as I know there is nothing in the Catechism that says two consenting adults can’t enjoy some exotic ways to make love. But these people feel it is not biblical to just get your rocks off with spankings, so they say it is actually not sexual, just needed for the wife’s own good.

If you are not into that, do NOT agree to it.

My guess is your husband wants more sex. And more…varied…sex. I bet if you meet that need the rest will fall away.

(although I agree 2 activities times 4 kids is way too much at that age).
 
Cat said:
OP, I don’t have a lot of time right now to deal with the sex question.

But I want to tell you that you are playing with fire to dismiss your husband’s very real need for sex.

Here’s what I suggest: pretend.

“What?!” you say! “What?”! say all the other people on this thread.

Yes, pretend. It works. Here’s what you do. PRETEND that your husband is the Ultimate Lover and you are really enjoying his company and his caresses. Moan, whisper, etc.

Don’t fake an orgasm. Since you are injured, he will know that you are faking it.

But fake PLEASURE in his lovemaking.

Amazingly, what you will discover if you continue to do this is that you really ARE enjoying lovemaking with your husband.

I would suggest that you stop thinking of it as “sex” and refer to the time as “lovemaking.”

This technique works for many situations in human behavior. E.g., if someone wants to lose weight, they “pretend” that they are thin, healthy people who always make good food choices and love working out everyday. Obviously they aren’t that kind of person, but what happens if they keep “pretending” is that they become fitter, thinner, healthier peole who truly DO love salads instead of cake!

It works for fearful situations. A person is afraid, and they pretend that they aren’t, and they discover that the really CAN do the thing that they were afraid of.

I’m very serious about this. I’ve been married for 35 years, and I’ve seen this “technique” work over and over again.

I cannot emphasize how very very IMPORTANT sex is to a husband. A lot of secular media ridicules a male sex drive, and tells jokes about a man’s brain between his legs. Ignore all this garbage. GOD created men to have a strong sex drive, and we wives need to honor God’s creation and work to honor our husbands by taking his need for sex seriously and doing whatever we need to do.

So you have problems with physical contact. So do I. But you must work to overcome this when it comes to lovemaking, or you are in grave danger of losing your husband to another woman or to virtual women online in a porn setting. There are men who have a strong enough faith to resist these temptations, but many men just can’t handle a marriage with little or no lovemaking, or lovemaking that is done grudgingly by a wife who appears not to love them.

For men, their sense of being loved is wrapped up in physical lovemaking. Flowers, a good meal, a glass of wine and jazz music–all of this is nice, but it doesn’t do it for a man.

Please heed what I am saying. Pretend that you are wildly in love with your husband and that you love making love with him . Eventually the feelings will become real, not pretend.
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Even if this doesn’t help the OP, it has helped me! Thanks cat
 
SoccerMom2four said:
I would be fine adding a couple more sexsperiences a month. It’s hard for me to warm to the idea because sex isn’t all that fun for me, I just let him do his business. So yeah I am probably not the sex kitten or Madonna/whore every man wants right? But I am trying my best. When I let him get his business done it is all I can do to not shudder.
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Yeah, that’s the real issue. If that part of the marriage was to his liking I bet you could wear sweats and the house be a disaster, wtih nothing but take out pizza for dinner, and he’d be happy.

Why is it not fun? It should be REALLY fun. Maybe you both need to read some books or something about how to make it more fun for you. I bet he would be in to that, if it meant more nookie.
 
ktmeyer said:
Ok, no one seems to get it. Taken in Hand is a kinky sex website mascarading as biblical teaching. That is all it is. It is about S&M. It is about Master/Slave type relationships. It is a pseudobiblical resource for men spanking their wives. With links to websites where you can buy new sexy paddles and straps to beat your wife with. That is ALL it is.
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Yes to this. I spent some time on that site last night. Big mistake. I feel like I need to confess it. This is a warning to people who might be curious–don’t go there.
 
AnneTeresa said:
Yes to this. I spent some time on that site last night. Big mistake. I feel like I need to confess it. This is a warning to people who might be curious–don’t go there.
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Ugh, I really could have done without the specifics.
 
Groo said:
I agree that sex is important for men, but I’m not sure advising the OP to pretend the sex is good is the right next step.

She seems barely able to tolerate him at this point, and not without good reason. Frankly, I am amazed she is intimate with him as frequently as she is. Something like counseling, more non-sexual time together, or just setting expectations for the marriage seems like a more appropriate next step to me.

I still think the OP’s husband is acting out of desperation. The marriage may or may not be in full crisis mode, but desperate people do desperate things. And if he keeps insisting on this weird program he is going to push his wife out the door.
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I didn’tsay to pretend that the sex is good.

I said to pretend that her HUSBAND is good. Please re-read my post. I said something about pretending to enjoy his company and his lovemaking, and to make him feel like he is the greatest lover ever.

He probably IS good company and a good lover, but the OP is having a difficult time “feeling” this because of her injury.

If the injury is causing her physical and emotional pain, yes, she needs to seek professional help. I hope that something can be done to treat her and lessen or eliminate her pain.

If the injury has caused a permanent inability to experience pleasure during sexual intercourse, that’s going to be a cross that the OP and her husband will have to bear together. But think about it–there are couples in which one of the spouses is paralyzed, and yet they still give sexual pleasure to the un-injured spouse.

If I am wrong, I hope the OP will forgive me. I don’t know her and I could be off by a mile. I suspect that the injury has made it difficult for the OP to get aroused, but has not entirely taken that ability away. I think that the OP is simply exhausted with the sheer work of raising 4 children, fed up with a husband who doesn’t seem to know how to help her come up with a strategy for dealing with their family situation, and just a little bit self-absorbed and caught up in a negative cycle in which everything just seems hopeless.

This negative cycle has to be broken, and “pretending” that her husband is the hottest lover ever and that she is thoroughly swept off her feet by him could be a starting point for breaking that cycle. If the OP’s body is “normal,” she will eventually find that her desire is awakened and that lovemaking is more pleasurable.

BTW, OP, my husband and I were thrilled if we made love once a month while our children were growing up. It was very difficult to find the time and energy. Neither of us were happy about it, but we worked together and tried not to use it as an excuse to become fed up with each other.
 
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