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Groo
Guest
Sorry,
Was referring to the post you quoted; not your post
- Status
Was referring to the post you quoted; not your post
Z
Zzyzx_Road
Guest
I agree that the OP’s husband’s interest in the way things are done over at Taken In Hand is out of line. There’s a point to Ephesians 5, but Taken In Hand is taking it too far and I get that. MrSnaith’s explanation of Ephesians 5 and of the difference between submission and subordination is one of the very best treatments I’ve ever seen on this topic.
That said, the OP’s attitude about sex is extraordinarily destructive to the health of the marriage. What’s worse is that the OP makes no acknowledgement of the destructive effects of her negativity about sex. She has essentially said, this is how I am, take it or leave it, I don’t like sex and I’m not all that interested in fixing that, if I have to, I suppose I can lie there and take it one or two more times a month while I think of England. I don’t think the OP has any real understanding just how destructive her attitude is, no understanding just what sex means to husbands in general let alone what it means to her husband in particular. Her husband feels her attitude coming at him in spades and he is driven to desperation by it.
The husband and the wife feel connected to their marriage in different ways. For the wife, it is the emotional intimacy of knowing that her husband listens to her, shows her he cares and values her (name removed by moderator)ut. For the husband, it is the physical intimacy he has with her that tells him at a gut level that she accepts him. When she turns him down physically, he cannot help but take that as a direct rejection of him. She may say on the surface that she values him as her husband, but her actions speak differently.
The OP is rejecting him on the one thing that matters the most to his feeling connected to the marriage. Whatever he has said about it has not gotten through to her, hence he is searching high and low for another way to get through to her. A search that I agree has led him into some dark places and he has to take responsibility for that.
So we have the spectacle of the OP threatening to blow up the family over this. All because she’s unhappy with him. This is survivable, but she will have to give to get it back. As much as he will have to give to get it back.
I now pray for the OP and her husband that they can come to a meeting of the bodies, minds and spirits, to put themselves in front of the children. God bless them and God bless their children, they deserve better.
That said, the OP’s attitude about sex is extraordinarily destructive to the health of the marriage. What’s worse is that the OP makes no acknowledgement of the destructive effects of her negativity about sex. She has essentially said, this is how I am, take it or leave it, I don’t like sex and I’m not all that interested in fixing that, if I have to, I suppose I can lie there and take it one or two more times a month while I think of England. I don’t think the OP has any real understanding just how destructive her attitude is, no understanding just what sex means to husbands in general let alone what it means to her husband in particular. Her husband feels her attitude coming at him in spades and he is driven to desperation by it.
The husband and the wife feel connected to their marriage in different ways. For the wife, it is the emotional intimacy of knowing that her husband listens to her, shows her he cares and values her (name removed by moderator)ut. For the husband, it is the physical intimacy he has with her that tells him at a gut level that she accepts him. When she turns him down physically, he cannot help but take that as a direct rejection of him. She may say on the surface that she values him as her husband, but her actions speak differently.
The OP is rejecting him on the one thing that matters the most to his feeling connected to the marriage. Whatever he has said about it has not gotten through to her, hence he is searching high and low for another way to get through to her. A search that I agree has led him into some dark places and he has to take responsibility for that.
So we have the spectacle of the OP threatening to blow up the family over this. All because she’s unhappy with him. This is survivable, but she will have to give to get it back. As much as he will have to give to get it back.
I now pray for the OP and her husband that they can come to a meeting of the bodies, minds and spirits, to put themselves in front of the children. God bless them and God bless their children, they deserve better.
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Rau
Guest
In light of what has been said on this thread, what are your thoughts?
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dixieagle
Guest
I’ve read this whole thread, and find it very disturbing. That “Taken in Hand” stuff is appalling, no ifs and or buts about it. Crazy and in no way, shape, or form Christian.
OP, you seem to want very much what is best for your children, but I think you have things backwards. The very best gift parents can give their children is to love and care for each other and to model a healthy, loving marital relationship. Sports, music lessons, etc., all have their place, but they pale in comparison to what children gain from having parents who put each other first.
I find your attitude towards physical touching very sad. You must get to the bottom of this, and that can only happen with a good counselor. I also second the suggestion that you investigate Retrouvaille.
Your husband is, as others have mentioned, feeling “desperate”, as evidenced by the Taken in Hand trash. (I find some of his other demands unrealistic… 7 pm bedtime? Kids dressed for dinner? Come on.) He should be thrilled to death that you gather for dinner, unlike many families. That is a real positive. But, your physical rejection and ill-disguised disgust would have a detrimental effect on anyone.
You really are cheating yourself - not to mention your husband - if you don’t seek the help needed to get to the root of your physical aversion.
OP, you seem to want very much what is best for your children, but I think you have things backwards. The very best gift parents can give their children is to love and care for each other and to model a healthy, loving marital relationship. Sports, music lessons, etc., all have their place, but they pale in comparison to what children gain from having parents who put each other first.
I find your attitude towards physical touching very sad. You must get to the bottom of this, and that can only happen with a good counselor. I also second the suggestion that you investigate Retrouvaille.
Your husband is, as others have mentioned, feeling “desperate”, as evidenced by the Taken in Hand trash. (I find some of his other demands unrealistic… 7 pm bedtime? Kids dressed for dinner? Come on.) He should be thrilled to death that you gather for dinner, unlike many families. That is a real positive. But, your physical rejection and ill-disguised disgust would have a detrimental effect on anyone.
You really are cheating yourself - not to mention your husband - if you don’t seek the help needed to get to the root of your physical aversion.
S
SoccerMom2four
Guest
Well I find it strange that the same people on here who tell me how “critical” and “important” sex in a marriage is are the same ones to tell a couple to “just give up sex, it’s not the end of the world” when the couple can’t get pregnant! I have read here over and over that sex isn’t everything, and if the wife needs a break to just cut out sex entirely or LIMIT it to a small number of days a month. And now I am bad because I am willing to go out of my way two or three times a month?
I’m sorry, but I just didn’t get the gene that made sex pleasurable. It is better with a sheet between us because I hate his sweating. I hate his grunting sounds, like an animal. I don’t want him to grab me or fondle me like I am some sort of porno playmate!
I don’t even see what the problem is. I am not a very touchy feely person. SO? Do I have to be touchy feely? I have had four kids, my body is used up, I have “touched” more than any human should have to. The last thing I need is a grown adult man coming to me and begging for even more of myself at the end of a long day.
Put my husband first? I do. I let him use me to conduct his business, I run his home, I raise his children, I fill his stomach, I handle his affairs. Then I let him use my body for his release. No, not every night. I just can’t. Sometimes I just need to have a big glass of wine and take a bath and check OUT.
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thewanderer
Guest
I believe the real problem people are trying to point out on your part is that you seem to not understand why marital relations is important in a marriage or why your husband sees it as important, and not just that “do the deed” but that you both engage in an intimate act which brings you both closer together. Even if you don’t have a strong desire for such intimacy through marital relations it is extremely important that you are able to understand why your husband would want “intimate” marital relations, rather than simply an occasion to “do his business”.
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dixieagle
Guest
You speak of putting your husband first, but you are ignoring the posters who have told you, over and over, that you are rejecting him in the area that is, perhaps, the most important to husbands. You clearly believe that his desire for marital relations is abnormal and disgusting and you are doing a great job of communicating that to him. You “let him use your body for his release”???
And you “don’t even see the problem”? Counseling, pronto.
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Groo
Guest
I am worried that your husband is panicking and doing crazy things, while you seem on the verge of snapping under an incredible amount of pressure (understandably!).
It’s hard to convey on a message board, but I am genuinely concerned for your well-being and that of your family.
Since you can’t make your husband change, maybe you can take a small step and just find someone to talk to. Some counselors are good, or a close friend or relative. Find someone you can unload your burdens so that you aren’t always carrying the world on your shoulders.
I have found that just by talking about my problems to someone the answers seem to become clear and obvious. But keeping everything to myself just makes everything seem to be an impossible mess.
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Rau
Guest
NFP or abstinence is a shared decision that a couple may need to take, and in so doing, they continue to love and support each other. While it is difficult, it is not comparable to the environment you describe between yourself and your husband, which is characterised by a loathing (on your part) of closeness and intimacy. You don’t just ration sex, you actually detest it. You’d rather not even touch your husband, and you’d rather he didn’t touch you.
In Post #1, you quite rightly said - in respect of “Taken in Hand” - it’s “not what you signed up for”. Dead right of course - but it does prompt the question - “What did you sign up for when you pursued married life”? I am sure you knew that Marriage is an inherently sexual institution - you were in your 20s after all. Why would a person who prefers a handshake to a hug want to be married - please explain!
You state “you don’t see what the problem is”. Seems to me the problem is that either you deceived your husband prior to getting married, or he deceived you. Which is it?
I am surprised that your husband desires sex with you given the baggage with which you come to the marital bed. It must be horrible for him too! Why would he not instead choose masturbation - I imagine you’ve suggested it? What you “offer” seems effectively the same, only a great deal more lonely.
If this sounds harsh, it is not because you experience a lack of interest in sex. But because you demonstrate a complete lack of concern for your husband and your marriage, and accept no responsibility for either.
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CradleJourney
Guest
I am so sorry you are facing this challenge in your life and marriage. I am a touchy feely person who loves hugs, cuddles, and even hand shakes gentle smile - but there have been many times while bf-ing one little one and having all the rest (six kids in total) wanting their cuddles too, I would reach the exact point you described. The very last thing I wanted to be was touched by anyone in any fashion - esp. by my hubby at the end of the day!
The difference is that with time it would pass and I’d go back to being my normal touchy feely self again. I can’t imagine the stress you’re experiencing having started out as a non-touchy feely person to begin with.
Others have posted regarding the amount of kid activities - again, we have similarities and differences. I, too, have always believed busy = tired = keep out of trouble. And it’s worked reasonably well for us. There are many nights we do not get “family time” - and we actually have much less “spouse time” then you probably do. But it works out just fine for us - we’ve come up with some great ways of communicating, and we routinely monitor the schedule to see if it needs tweaking. Sometimes that means making a kid miss a season, but usually we’re able to pull off the two to three activities per child. The difference is this is a mutual, conscious decision by hubby & I both - we work as a team, along with the kids, to make this stuff (including my PTA volunteering) happen. It means giving up some things (like a regularly tidy house and “normal” dinners every night) but again, it’s a situation where we look at the cost/benefits and both agree on if the sacrifice is worth it. We have our busy times and our slow times and our in-between times, and I actually think it works out better for our kids (somewhat older than yours) since they have learned to be both responsible (they have to take care of their own uniforms/equipment, and plan ahead to get homework done beforehand) and supportive (covering chores, etc. for a family member who’s busy one night - knowing that another night someone will cover for them).
It’s not the activities - it’s the mutual deciding and accepting that’s the key. And that communication and teamwork seem to be what’s missing from your situation.
Same thing for intimacy - once a week, once a month, once a year - in my experience frequency isn’t the important thing. Agreeing on what works for you both as a couple is. Again, it seems from your posting that you and your husband are not on the same page.
I can fully see where you’re coming from … but what needs to happen (just my opinion) is for your husband to see it - and for you to see and understand exactly where he is coming from. I hope you’re both able to find the help and guidance you need to work through this and come out with a better relationship afterwards.
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bitterhope
Guest
I feel really bad for your husband. I completely understand why he is so desperately seeking to take control of the household because you are neglecting all the things that are important to him and have been for a long time if what your posts say is true. You said that he’s been asking for things to change for at least 4 years. If you would rather shake his hand than hug him, if dinner isn’t a priority, and you aren’t even willing to let your hair grow longer, what are you willing to do for him? So you raise his kids for him…they are your kids to, and most wives and mothers see that as a blessing and honor, not simply a chore. It is part of the vocation that you chose. This whole situation is disturbing, and each one of your posts is more disturbing than the one before. I feel really bad for your husband and understand why he is so desperate.
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Cat
Guest
OP, I’ve been in your corner so far in this thread, but not in this.
I think you have talked yourself into this negative thought pattern and now you can’t break out of it, and it is damaging your marriage.
You are ranting about your husband’s sweating and his grunting. You can’t get past the basic human “messiness” of sexual activity to appreciate the beauty and wonder of the act.
Yes, there are people who are not “touchy feely” and I am one of them. But when it comes to lovemaking, that’s not the same as the “hug your neck bless your heart, honey!” hugging behavior that you get from very touchy-feely people.
Lovemaking is part of the Sacrament of Marriage. Lovemaking is God-created.
You said you don’t see what the problem is. YES, it IS a problem! I agree that the answer is not for your husband to join a fetish organization. He has some work to do, too.
But YOU are the one who has dwelt on this in your thoughts and have created an entire inner mindset where you “haven’t inherited the gene that makes sex pleasurable.” With respect, I would say that this is nonsense.
Lovemaking is a SKILL that can and MUST be learned by those who do it (husbands and wives). It is not an automatic thing. Spouses have to LEARN the skills and nuances that make lovemaking work for both of them. If there are problems (premature ejaculation, failure to get aroused, etc.), these can be worked on and conquered!
If you can use my comments about “pretending” in my earlier thread to help you to break out of this negative thinking pattern, that’s great.
It may be that you should seek some counseling to help you to break out of this. Please seek it.
I cannot overemphasize how much you are endangering your marriage by your thought process. You need to take a big step back and look at what you are thinking and saying, and CHANGE IT, and if you need the help of a professional or a perhaps a female mentor to change your thought patterns, that’s fine. Do it.
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PaulinVA
Guest
If my wife said that I would be cut to the quick with a hurt that might not be repairable.
I’m sorry that you feel this way.You make your husband* beg* for sex? You need to remember, after the kids are grown and gone, it’s going to be only the two of you. You are laying a foundation of rejection of your husband and who he is that will certainly be a factor in whether your kids, who are so important to you, spend Thanksgiving with dad and Christmas with mom or whether you have a family that is still together years from now.
Part of marriage is indeed running the affairs of the house. But, there is so much more.
You need counseling to explore why you feel the way you do about sex, and perhaps also about your sexuality. Marriage counseling is needed, too.
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The_Bucket
Guest
SoccerMom2four, that last post was so bad in terms of how poisonous an attitude a wife could have towards her husband and sexual intimacy that it was actually a very good troll post.
So if you’re not trolling, that should provide a little perspective.
So if you’re not trolling, that should provide a little perspective.
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Lillibut
Guest
I’ve been following this thread, in the background so to speak.
I identify with a lot of the things that the OP says but whilst I am also aware that my physical needs have faded into the background to the extent that sex is something which I don’t think about and wouldn’t miss, I DO think that this is an issue for me to deal with. Why? Because I love my husband. Sex might not be important to me but it sure is to him and I don’t want to hurt him or make him feel unloved.
Has anyone else noticed that nowhere in any of the OP’s posts does she mention the word “love”?
OP: Do you love your husband?
I identify with a lot of the things that the OP says but whilst I am also aware that my physical needs have faded into the background to the extent that sex is something which I don’t think about and wouldn’t miss, I DO think that this is an issue for me to deal with. Why? Because I love my husband. Sex might not be important to me but it sure is to him and I don’t want to hurt him or make him feel unloved.
Has anyone else noticed that nowhere in any of the OP’s posts does she mention the word “love”?
OP: Do you love your husband?
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DAML72
Guest
I haven’t read through all the responses, and don’t have time to. As someone who knows what ‘Taken in Hand’ is about, my suggestion would be to take this to your priest. I think you and your husband should also go to counseling and do a Retrouvaille retreat.
Does anyone else know - are there other resources for Catholic men to enhance themselves as husbands? A retreat, maybe?
The problem I see here is that there is most likely a lust component on the part of your husband. I don’t think this is just about taking back control of the family, I think there is an element of BDSM (bondage, discipline, sadism, masochism) going on here for your husband that you do not want to participate in. This is something that he would need to work on through confession, prayer, etc.
I will say a prayer for you. I have to say I am a little concerned about the relationship dynamics. I see you putting a lot of responsibility on yourself for your husband’s behavior. I get the feeling there may be some subtle emotional and/or verbal abuse going on. That said, I would not counsel you to leave. Divorce is not an easy answer. It is hell. In my opinion, the only justification for putting a child through that is if there is pervasive abuse going on in the family.
Have you considered talking to a trained therapist about these issues?
Does anyone else know - are there other resources for Catholic men to enhance themselves as husbands? A retreat, maybe?
The problem I see here is that there is most likely a lust component on the part of your husband. I don’t think this is just about taking back control of the family, I think there is an element of BDSM (bondage, discipline, sadism, masochism) going on here for your husband that you do not want to participate in. This is something that he would need to work on through confession, prayer, etc.
I will say a prayer for you. I have to say I am a little concerned about the relationship dynamics. I see you putting a lot of responsibility on yourself for your husband’s behavior. I get the feeling there may be some subtle emotional and/or verbal abuse going on. That said, I would not counsel you to leave. Divorce is not an easy answer. It is hell. In my opinion, the only justification for putting a child through that is if there is pervasive abuse going on in the family.
Have you considered talking to a trained therapist about these issues?
D
DAML72
Guest
My suggestion to OP would be to seek out a very good therapist to talk to. It sounds like there are some unhealthy things going on in this relationship and it would be good to get the perspective of a professional.
OP - don’t drag your husband to therapy just yet. Go for yourself, to sort things out and figure out a game plan.
OP - don’t drag your husband to therapy just yet. Go for yourself, to sort things out and figure out a game plan.
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byzancatholic
Guest
You know…perhaps this lady has low thyroid or some other physiological cause for her exhaustion.
Many spouses face inner doubts about being married - it is human and normal. But I do not advocate separation and divorce, even with SoccerMom2four’s spouse being involved with this suspect men’s organization advocating master/slave role between husband and wife.
Our posting mother and wife should consider:
God bless you SoccerMom2four
PS
Disciplne that is physical between husband and wife is degrading. It is not reflective of Jesus Christ and His Church as Bride.
I went to the “Taken in Hand” site and there is a contract, too. Marriage is a covenant and you have entered into it (already) on your wedding day. I will pray for swift onset of healing in your marriage, as this situation did not happen overnight.
Many spouses face inner doubts about being married - it is human and normal. But I do not advocate separation and divorce, even with SoccerMom2four’s spouse being involved with this suspect men’s organization advocating master/slave role between husband and wife.
Our posting mother and wife should consider:
- Immediate visit with OB/Gyn to discuss low libido, symptoms, physical intimacy “time line” with her spouse (before and after pregnancy/birth). It is possible there may be a physical reason that is a health root cause. Let her consider science. Maybe one of the births damaged something. Only a competent licensed physician can examine and determine a biological reason. Maybe the OB/Gyn could refer her to a Reproductive Endocrinologist (those specialists do not just handle IVF - they also save married women’s bedroom lives if there is a hormonal imbalance, like the Pituitary-Gonadal Axis? Or a lesion on the Pituitary gland? There are many possible reasons for low libido. Or early peri-menopause.
- Men who would resort to a misogynistic “group” like SoccerMom2four is desperation. Desperation for change quickly - overnight. Change and real growth does not happen overnight. Married life has a spiritual foundation that demands patience, forebearence and forgiveness if the spouse truly loves unconditionally. That is not easy. Forgiveness springs from love.
- Fear and anger are making their marriage toxic: It is easier to control from fear and anger than for two spouses to come into “consensus” with a mutual set of goals. I once asked a Rabbi (who was lecturing at a Chabbad about married life) whether he advised couples to keep and cherish their individuality from God our creator as a key component of their married covenant. Our group went off on a 15 minute “discussion” tangent. SoccerMom2four’s spouse feels an out of control feeling. She feels it, too. They both need to acknowledge to each other that they’re both experiencing fear. Jesus was fearful before His death. YES, THEY NEED SPRITUALY SOUND COUNSELING WITH A PLAN TO REMAIN MARRIED.
- Separation and divorce will scar the children. It’s not a solution, it’s something that is a cop out, quiet frankly. Married life requires both spouses making some sacrifice for their common good. Divorce will make things worse.
- Sex is created by God and He wants married couples to remain together. There is a way for this situation to be healed. Our Creator does send row boats when we pray for His help. God intended for married couples to share a content sexual life that is mutually exclusive. Husband and wife are expected to assist each other in their spiritual journey (salvation). A trusted, ethical physician can p(name removed by moderator)oint what is causing this (I do not believe it’s depression). We are not physicians. A competent physician will order blood work on SoccerMom2four to obtain why she’s tired, having difficulty with her female self and other metabolism related issues. The underlying cause may not be emotional or mom-burnout. It could be an undiagnosed health problem. Hypothyroidism has very real symptoms of depression, low energy and depleted libido. So does early onset of menopause (i.e. ovarian failure).
God bless you SoccerMom2four
PS
Disciplne that is physical between husband and wife is degrading. It is not reflective of Jesus Christ and His Church as Bride.
I went to the “Taken in Hand” site and there is a contract, too. Marriage is a covenant and you have entered into it (already) on your wedding day. I will pray for swift onset of healing in your marriage, as this situation did not happen overnight.
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
Key words – in your opinion. I know plenty of kids who get into trouble regardless of the activities their parents put them in. I also know kids who are not involved in activities who are good kids. Each child is different. My oldest daughter doesn’t enjoy playing competitive sports–she just wants to play the game for fun (now me–I don’t understand that). It would not have been good for us to force her to play. As parents we need to be flexible doing what is best for each child–not force them into some cookie cutter mold that we think is best for them (not to imply you are doing this). This daughter did virtually nothing that you view as essential yet she stayed out of trouble, feels good about herself, was in the top 10 in her very large high school class, got into a good private college with a nice scholarship, graduated on time just missing a 4.0 and landed a job just after graduation. I don’t mean to imply anything regarding your children and their scheduling because I really don’t know–but I think you will find that children today are mostly over scheduled and that this in not healthy for them–the studies show that. I played plenty of sports pre high school, but only a short little league season was scheduled–the rest was at the play ground, at home or at friends–it seemed to work for us and it seems to be working for my kids. The lessons I took or activities I did were because I had found an interest and I asked my parents–not because they told me I was going to do x y z.
I have a hard time believing I just read “I just let him do his business” and “it is all I can do not to shudder”. It breaks my heart. We just want to be loved and desired by our wives the way we love and desire them. I have no interest in “just doing my business” to my wife. I have a desire to be in union with my wife, to be one with my wife–to share the most intimate and vulnerable part of myself with her–not just achieve some selfish climax. We don’t want a “sex kitten or Madonna/whore” we want wives who love us and who desire to be with us as we love them and desire to be with them. If a “sex kitten or Modanna/whore” is really your view of what men want–perhaps there is more going on here than you have let on or wish to share. I have no idea and can only offer prayers.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
A
aataxi
Guest
Wow, thank you for your honesty! I’m new here so just thought this topic was very interesting. It seems that your husband is not satisfied sexually, I am not blaming you, I think your husband should try and understand where YOU are comfortable or not, with your sexual relationship. The activities your kids are involved in, while seemingly helpful on th outside, also seem to take away from your time alone with your husband.
The website he found, shows he is looking for more " excitement" in the bedroom, in my opinion, but since you do not feel the same way about him, how can you ever have a satisfactory sexual relationship?
As a Catholic, your husband is bound to you, but believe me, if his needs continually do not get met, I feel he will find them elsewhere. The best thing for your relationship is some honest, counseling to determine your compatibility.
Thanks for listening.
- Status