New argument from Baptist friend

[JED8643]

I though I heard all the arguments against the Catholic Church until a few days ago when a Baptist friend hit me with one I honestly never heard before and was unprepared to answer.

His arguments always involves the Catholic Church being steeped in extra biblical man made “traditions”.

He said that it is Catholic doctrine that suicide is a mortal sin and that if you commit suicide the church says you go to hell. He goes on to say that in the OT book of Judges, Samson commits suicide. Since he is mentioned in the book of Hebrews as on OT figure who is with God (paraphrasing his comments) then the Catholic Church is once again wrong and unbiblical.

Anyway, from what I can gather about the death of Samson, it doesn’t seem like he died because of despair or the normal reasons people sometimes commit suicide. He was taking out as much of the enemy as possible during a war. Kind of like a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers.

Since I never heard this argument before I was unprepared to quickly respond, so I didn’t try to “wing it”.

What are your thoughts on this “supposed “contradiction and can you ever be fully prepared for every objection to the faith?

 

[VociMike]

Wow, I have to say that is one lame argument.

In the first place, as you say, Samson did not commit suicide. He battled the enemy in the only way he could (being blind and surrounded, his options were limited), knowing that his own death would result.

In the second place, the Church does not teach that everyone who commits suicide has committed a mortal sin.

But other than being wrong in the two pillars (ahem…) of his argument, he makes a good point.

 

[promethius]

I though I heard all the arguments against the Catholic Church until a few days ago when a Baptist friend hit me with one I honestly never heard before and was unprepared to answer.

His arguments always involves the Catholic Church being steeped in extra biblical man made “traditions”.

He said that it is Catholic doctrine that suicide is a mortal sin and that if you commit suicide the church says you go to hell. He goes on to say that in the OT book of Judges, Samson commits suicide. Since he is mentioned in the book of Hebrews as on OT figure who is with God (paraphrasing his comments) then the Catholic Church is once again wrong and unbiblical.

Anyway, from what I can gather about the death of Samson, it doesn’t seem like he died because of despair or the normal reasons people sometimes commit suicide. He was taking out as much of the enemy as possible during a war. Kind of like a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers.

Since I never heard this argument before I was unprepared to quickly respond, so I didn’t try to “wing it”.

What are your thoughts on this “supposed “contradiction and can you ever be fully prepared for every objection to the faith?

I agree with VociMike, it’s pretty hard to maintain an argument when you’ve lied for both of your premises. They honestly think we catholics DON’T read the bible… and that they can get away with trying to lie to us about what’s in our own book.

 

[adelore]

I though I heard all the arguments against the Catholic Church until a few days ago when a Baptist friend hit me with one I honestly never heard before and was unprepared to answer.

His arguments always involves the Catholic Church being steeped in extra biblical man made “traditions”.

He said that it is Catholic doctrine that suicide is a mortal sin and that if you commit suicide the church says you go to hell. He goes on to say that in the OT book of Judges, Samson commits suicide. Since he is mentioned in the book of Hebrews as on OT figure who is with God (paraphrasing his comments) then the Catholic Church is once again wrong and unbiblical.

Anyway, from what I can gather about the death of Samson, it doesn’t seem like he died because of despair or the normal reasons people sometimes commit suicide. He was taking out as much of the enemy as possible during a war. Kind of like a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers.

Since I never heard this argument before I was unprepared to quickly respond, so I didn’t try to “wing it”.

What are your thoughts on this “supposed “contradiction and can you ever be fully prepared for every objection to the faith?

First of all the Catholic church wasn’t around during the OT times. Jesus founded the Catholic Church…during Jesus life time. (In fact the Bapsist church wasn’t around during the OT times either.)

As we all know the OT times were a pre-lude to Jesus comming. Mankind living in the OT times couldn’t keep all the Old Laws. Therefore Jesus came to save us.

What you need to ask your friend is this… Where does he find in the KJ version of the Bible that Suicide is ok by God? It would also be interesting to see His Churchs believes on the matter of Suicide. (not just what he says they believe, but indeed seeing the churchs doctrine.)

This will end up being a Big Stumbling Block for him. He won’t be able to do it, in other words he won’t be able to show/prove where just **"out right **"Suicide is ok by any Church.

Granted there are people who commite Suicide who are mentally/emotionally/ or so distraught physcially ill, that they are not of “Sound Mind” when they commite Suicide. And believe me God in His Wisdom, knows who those people are. It is then left in Gods Hands.

You might want to explain it to your friend like this…

Jesus was scraficed for others…(for our well being, since we are all sinnners.) Now we all know that Jesus at the snap of his finger could have stopped the cruifixion. So would his death be considered Suicide? Of course not. Jesus gave his life, so that “others could live”.

Sometimes in life, yes such as war,(in the OT and today) the fireman, ect, will put their lives on the line, knowing they may die, but in the end, it’s to save others lives, or the welfare of others come before their Own life. Is this considered Suicide? Of course not! In fact in today’s world most of these people are considered “Herros”.

Maybe your friend needs to learn the Real meaing of Suicide.

I hope this helps, because this is how I would explain it and I would also ask the questions I mentioned above and see what he can come up with…

 

[JeanneH]

His arguments always involves the Catholic Church being steeped in extra biblical man made “traditions”.

In 2Thess 2:15 we are told not to hold to the traditions of men but to the Traditions left us in Paul’s teaching and letters and the rest of the apostles.

He said that it is Catholic doctrine that suicide is a mortal sin and that if you commit suicide the church says you go to hell. He goes on to say that in the OT book of Judges, Samson commits suicide. Since he is mentioned in the book of Hebrews as on OT figure who is with God (paraphrasing his comments) then the Catholic Church is once again wrong and unbiblical.

CCC**2283 **

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives

Anyway, from what I can gather about the death of Samson, it doesn’t seem like he died because of despair or the normal reasons people sometimes commit suicide. He was taking out as much of the enemy as possible during a war. Kind of like a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers.

I agree. Samson even asked for Gods help here.

What are your thoughts on this “supposed “contradiction and can you ever be fully prepared for every objection to the faith?

I don’t know. They throw such nonsense at us that you wonder where they get it from.

God Bless
Jeanne

 

[DavWan]

What are your thoughts on this “supposed “contradiction and can you ever be fully prepared for every objection to the faith?

No, you can’t be fully prepared for every objection to the faith as there are so many ways to misinterpret a thing. Many of them would sound too unreasonable to consider, but to some they make sense.

The best you can do is to have a solid grounding in what the Church does teach so as not to be misled from an argument that “sounds” good, and then to research the rest when it arises.

 

[VociMike]

Since I never heard this argument before I was unprepared to quickly respond, so I didn’t try to “wing it”.

A good response in such cases (in any case, really) is simply to say “show me”. “Show me that Samson committed suicide. And show me that the Church teaches that every person who commits suicide goes to hell.”

Your friend will get a lot more cautious about the stuff he flings out if you demand that he document each of his assertions.

 

[Catholic1954]

When I hear that kind of nonsense, I look intently at the speaker, raise my Mr. Spock eyebrow, and say, “Says who?”,

 

[JED8643]

When I hear that kind of nonsense, I look intently at the speaker, raise my Mr. Spock eyebrow, and say, “Says who?”,

:ehh:

I like that, thats really funny. I shoulda tried that.

Well, the sad part is my friend has alot of baggage with the Catholic Church. A large part of his Italian extended family are Catholic and unfortunately his nephew took his own life a couple of years ago. His sister, in her grief, turned to him for consolation as he is a Baptist pastor. I assume she probably doesn’t know her faith well enough to know the Churches teaching on the subject of suicide. My friend said his sister was very relieved when he shared this knowledge of scripture with her.
I assume she grew up hearing other Catholics reinforce the idea that suicide victims always go to hell. She will probably end up leaving the CC because of her brother’s influence. Especially when he can pull scriptures and make it seem that the CC teaches incorrect doctrine.

I thought I had heard every possible objection until he came up with this one. Fortunately I have recourses like the Catechism and these forums to be able to research and discover what the CC really teaches on any given subject.

The really sad part is most Catholics can be lead astray so easily, but I think the tide is turning.
It’s also sad that my friend is a Pastor and most likely tells these stories to his congregation, who in turn tell it to others.

 

[JED8643]

What you need to ask your friend is this… Where does he find in the KJ version of the Bible that Suicide is ok by God? It would also be interesting to see His Churchs believes on the matter of Suicide. (not just what he says they believe, but indeed seeing the churchs doctrine.)

Good post,

Unfortunately, being an independent Baptist, there is no official church “doctrine”. It is pure sola scriptura, relying heavily on the pastor’s interpretation of scripture. In this case His interpretation. To my friend, sin was dealt with on the cross. That means past, present and future sins. As long as the person was “saved” at some point in time, they are going to heaven. That’s how he interprets scripture and he is never going to believe anything else. I guess he can quote just enough scripture to be dangerous. Trust me, I pray for him all the time.

Thanks for the reply