L
New Baptism Document Released From Vatican(expect Papers to get it Wrong)
- Status
G
Genesis315
Guest
Correct. It doesn’t say anything definitive, just that we are free to hope. 
P
Potato1
Guest
Just another chip in the holiness and necessity of the sacraments, why even have them at all? The protestant churches are starting to look like Catholic churches not because of what they are changing but because of what we are allowing to be erroded.
L
lsusportsfan
Guest
Well I wouldnt go that far. It appears this basically says what the Catechsim says. We have to hope in the mercy of God that is. I would be fine if it is left at this and the Pope make no further statement on it myself
A
adrift
Guest
I don’t understand your comment. I have lost children and I could not understand that a person on the way to baptism would have baptism of desire but my baby who I would have baptized if she had been born would not.
This makes sense to me and is not eroding anything.
P
Potato1
Guest
I have lost parents and family and friends that werent baptized. If it is different because of a cute little baby, then why did the Lord institute and direct us to do it? Salvation is not an entitlement it is a gift. Baptism doesnt even garantee salvation. How could the apostles, early Church, many popes nad pre vatican 2 Catholics have gotten this wrong? Maybe we don’t need to repent for our sins either. Since God desires everyone goes to heaven and God can do all things, maybe faith is not even necessary?
A
adrift
Guest
You didn’t answer my point which was why was a baby on their way to baptism not the same as a born person on their way to baptism. It is unknown even for those you have mentioned where they are. Do you think they are not in heaven?
No one got it wrong. A speculation, that was not by made the Apostles or the early Church, is all it ever was.
G
Genesis315
Guest
You need to read St. Alphonsus Liguori’s **The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection. **God gives all men the opportunity to receive the grace necessary for conversion and salvation.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I think this part is really important. If a baby is in danger of dying, and we have the ability to baptize him or her, we need to do so. But if the baby dies before we have a chance to baptize him or her, we cannot say with certainty that he or she has gone to Hell. There is still the hope of a miracle after death.
There is nothing in Church documents to suggest that Baptism of Desire is transferrable. There is a distinction between a parent’s desire to baptize a baby, and an adult’s personal intention to be baptized. The baby doesn’t know anything about baptism, and thus, can’t form the personal desire to be baptized, so unborn babies don’t have “Baptism of Desire.”
G
Genesis315
Guest
This is of course why God has not revealed to us what happens to them–so we neither act presumtuously, nor do we fall into depair.
D
down_under
Guest
exactly right we are given no information about the subject whatsoever. We have great hope for those innocent lives which have no sin but original sin, but we dont know what has happened to them. I PERSONNALLY have a great hope for anyone who died before getting the chance to commit any personnel sin. Remember to pray for those that have gone before us. Not in despair but in great hope in God. I speak as a person who has barried a wife before I was 26. So I know a little about having hope.
O
otjm
Guest
I am not sure what it is you feel that the Church, the Apostles, and many popes got wrong.
The Church has mulled on the issue of what happens to someone who through no fault of their own is not able to receive baptism. The Church, however, has never officially stated that babies who are not baptized do not go to heaven. Limbo was never an official doctrine of the Church; it was the thinking of a number of theologians, but never accepted and defined as doctrine.
The ultimate question is that if Christ came to save all, (and not all are saved, because we have free will and can reject salvation), and if baptism is necessary for salvation, and God is just, then if a baby cannot be baptized through no fault of their own, and God both wills salvation for all and is just, how can God not grant salvation to the baby? That is the essence of the Church’s questioning of the mystery of salvation, and the Church still has not defined in doctrinal terms the answer.
- Status