New book on Muhammed

[pro_universal]

No, what is going on here is people present you and other Moslems with facts and rather than deal with those you go for questioning ‘motives’ etc, even now you do so.

Please come up with a refutation based on what the person says, not what you perceive as their bias.

Well, the whole point is that what he says is not credible.

If I write a post that says “Montalban secretly loves satan, and writes notes to him every night”, and then you point out that I am someone on the internet who doesn’t know you…would that be “attacking the man instead of the message?”

Pointing out that Rev. Spencer has no credibility on Islam is an explicit claim about his writing: that it is not credible, and thus, is a waste of time for anyone who wants to learn about Islam.

 

[vladimir998]

pro_universal,

What is your evidence that Spencer is credible? Can you document anything for us?

 

[cestusdei]

No he can’t. Which is the point. Spencer himself challenges folks to find errors in his book. They can’t.

Damascus, look pro has stated he supports terrorist groups that have killed Americans. There is no requirement that you like a guy like that.

 

[cestusdei]

I just looked up the bio of Thomas Edison. He was incredibly stupid as he never completed school, got a diploma, or a degree. He was unqualified to do anything or comment on electricity or any of the 1000+ patents he had. According to pro he should have been ignored and was unqualified to comment on any subject. Can’t have self taught people getting to big for their britches. And none of this examining his work on it’s merits stuff. Pro shows the typical anti-intellectual streak that ensures Islam remains mired in ignorance. They publish more books in Spain in a year then the entire Arab world does.

 

[Montalban]

Well, the whole point is that what he says is not credible.

No it’s not. It’s just your ‘say-so’ that he is not. The only evidence you’ve cited is you repeating you saying this.

To determine if what you say is true we have to examine what he actually has said, to see if he is correct. But alas you won’t do this. Mantra like, you insist on repeating that he has no credibility. This would of course imply that you are an expert on him.

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal,

What is your evidence that Spencer is credible? Can you document anything for us?

Oh unbeliever. Did you not hear and submit? He’s told you this author lacks credibility. Is that not enough? If that hasn’t convinced you, he’s repeated it several times! Surely that’s more proof!

 

[Damascus]

No he can’t. Which is the point. Spencer himself challenges folks to find errors in his book. They can’t.

Damascus, look pro has stated he supports terrorist groups that have killed Americans. There is no requirement that you like a guy like that.

I know but I wonder how much of his statements are just tough talk to prove himself as a new Muslim.

Regardless if he is or not- I tried to PM him and got no response and he is not here either- I hope he is just busy and nothing is wrong.

Anyway, I agree that it is not a good thing to support bad guys.

I am just afraid that I may have caused him to dislike Catholics.

I know this thread should not do that, or any comments here since they are not personal attacks- its a discussion and he cant expect it to be in full agreement with his view.

Its just my guilty nature that I feel bad.

I dont want to make him justify his position (dim view of us) and give him a reason to be mad at us.

 

[Valke2]

On 2 September 2006 a video called “Invitation to Islam” featuring Adam Gadahn with a brief appearance also by Ayman al-Zawahiri [11]. In the video, Gadahn named Spencer in a list of “Zionist crusader missionaries of hate and counter-Islam consultants” which included George W. Bush, and that if he “were to abandon their unbelief and repent and enter into the light of Islam and turn their swords against the enemies of God, it would be accepted of them and they would be our brothers in Islam.”

Spencer responded with an article in Frontpage Magazine (“My Invitation From al-Qaeda”, September 6, 2006) in which he publicly rejected Gadahn’s offer and responded with his own counter-offer:

I invite you [Gadahn] to accept the Bill of Rights, and enter into the brotherhood of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. My invitation does not focus on my religion, although I invite you to that also, but rather on a framework within which people of differing faiths can live in peace, harmony, and mutual respect – provided that none of the groups involved cherishes supremacist ambitions to subjugate the others.
(From Wikipedia).

 

[cestusdei]

Spencers website www.jihadwatch.org has an interesting debate on forced conversion in Islam.

Damascus, you won’t make him hate us. He already did before he met you or me. I don’t think he is a new Muslim. He was always one.

 

[pro_universal]

pro_universal,

What is your evidence that Spencer is credible? Can you document anything for us?

I just quoted the head of UNC Chapel Hill’s Middle East studies program on page one. Read what Prof. Carl Ernst has to say about Rev. Spencer.

If the comments of scholars in the field don’t count as evidence, I can’t help you.

 

[pro_universal]

No it’s not. It’s just your ‘say-so’ that he is not. The only evidence you’ve cited is you repeating you saying this.

To determine if what you say is true we have to examine what he actually has said, to see if he is correct. But alas you won’t do this. Mantra like, you insist on repeating that he has no credibility. This would of course imply that you are an expert on him.

I linked you to a reputable scholar commenting on the body of Spencer’s work. That isn’t just my opinion.

Or is there some reason to suspect that Carl Ernst is not actually likely to know what he’s talking about?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

If you want to play the ad hominem game - Carl Ernst is a University professor who makes his living talking up Islam - he’s not likely to have an unbiased view, is he?

If you want an unbiased view you got me. Not need to go for a dhimmi Islamo-professor.

 

[pro_universal]

If you want to play the ad hominem game - Carl Ernst is a University professor who makes his living talking up Islam - he’s not likely to have an unbiased view, is he?

If you want an unbiased view you got me. Not need to go for a dhimmi Islamo-professor.

Oh right…you just ooze impartiality and sound judgment

 

[vladimir998]

Pro_universal,

I asked you what made you doubt Spencer’s credibility (sorry about the typo in my original query). You told me to check your post about Ernst on the first page. I did. This is what I found:

“In particular, the lectures given by authors such as Spencer on college campuses may be misunderstood as being equivalent to scholarly research. While it certainly may be acknowledged that scholarship has political implications, independent research needs to be distinguished from hired polemics.

“The publications of Spencer belong to the class of Islamophobic extremism that is promoted and supported by right-wing organizations, who are perpetuating a type of bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice. They are to be viewed with great suspicion by anyone who wishes to find reliable and scholarly information on the subject of Islam. I make these remarks because Spencer was invited to speak at UNC-Chapel Hill in the spring of 2004; I shared these observations with UNC students at the time to indicate that his views have no basis in scholarship (he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity).”

Sounds like criticism of Spencer without much merit. Are there SPECIFIC EXAMPLES YOU CAN OFFER of problems in Spencer’s research?

Q: Why should I believe what you [Robert Spencer] say about Islam?

RS: Because I draw no conclusions of myself, and I do not ask anyone to take anything on my word. Pick up any of my books, and you will see that they are made up largely of quotations from Islamic jihadists and the traditional Islamic sources to which they appeal to justify violence and terrorism. I am only shedding light on what these sources say.
It is amusing to me that some people like to focus on my credentials, when I have never made a secret of the fact that most of what I know about Islam comes from personal study. It is easier for them to talk about degrees than to find any inaccuracy in my work. Yet I present the work not on the basis of my credentials, but on the basis of the evidence I bring forth; evaluate it for yourself. One example: after I spoke at the University of North Carolina, Professor Carl Ernst of the university wrote a piece about me warning that my books were non-scholarly and were published by presses that he believed reflected a political agenda of which he did not approve. That kind of approach may impress some people, but Carl Ernst did not (and cannot) bring forth even a single example of a supposed inaccuracy in my work. I would, of course, be happy to debate Carl Ernst or any other scholar of Islam about Islam and jihad; this is a standing invitation. Also, as this site has shown, I am always open to new information.

 

[pro_universal]

Are there SPECIFIC EXAMPLES YOU CAN OFFER of problems in Spencer’s research?

There’s one of those on the first page also. Spencer claims that Islam commands violence to spread Islam. I posted two links that thoroughly debunk that position.

In any case, it’s possible to use original sources badly, remember? Quoting the bible doesn’t mean you are actually correct about what Christians believe. Same with this.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

No spread of Islam by violence? So Caliph Umar got it wrong eh? I don’t care about your apologetics, pro. People can read Islamic sources for themselves.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:

Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. “I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade.” Al-Hurmuzan said, “Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau.” So, ‘Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, “Let one of you talk to me!” Al-Mughira replied, “Ask whatever you wish.” The other asked, “Who are you?” Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- “Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master.” (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu’ man said to Al-Mughira, “If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah’s Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah’s Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday).”

 

[pro_universal]

Rodrigo,

Quoting sources does not mean you do so correctly. This is so obvious it shouldn’t have to be said.

 

[Montalban]

I linked you to a reputable scholar commenting on the body of Spencer’s work. That isn’t just my opinion.

Two opinions makes it right? Still, you’re intent on avoiding an accounting for what he has to say.

Or is there some reason to suspect that Carl Ernst is not actually likely to know what he’s talking about?

Considering that he is a 2004 winner of the Bashrahil prize, he himself is biased. The prize is awarded to people who promote only a liberal face for Islam

This is the game you wish to play.

We can also introduce experts who say Spencer’s book is well written.

We can do this till the cows come home, you and I trade appraisals about the book without you ever having to deal with what it actually has to say.

As to the prize itself, it’s interesting to note that a previous winner, the poet Adonis was criticised by Saudis for having abandoned Islam, so ‘progressive’ is he. Thus the prize is won by those who promote a form of Islam deemed by some (such as the Saudis) to be a departure from Islam!

So there you have it a man who composed his work in Classical Arabic, but who gets an award from liberal minded Moslems (so liberal some are accused of having left Islam) pans an author who describes the very form of Islam that prize-winning critics actually seem to be examples of!

 

[Montalban]

Rodrigo,

Quoting sources does not mean you do so correctly. This is so obvious it shouldn’t have to be said.

What is wrong about the source he quoted, or him quoting it? Again you’re prepared to play the man, and not what’s said.

 

[pro_universal]

What is wrong about the source he quoted, or him quoting it? Again you’re prepared to play the man, and not what’s said.

Again, pointing out that a doctor doesn’t have a medical degree in order to suggest that his advice is bad isn’t attacking the man.

You seem to only be capable of repeating yourself. When you can answer the objection, I’ll respond to you again.