New Breviary, Coming Soon!

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheMc
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Matthew_Holford said:
Presumably because he wants it. Why else do you suppose he would ask for it? In any case the reason is his business.
Click to expand...
Still prickly with me I see.

I asked him because I am curious. It really is none of your business.
 
ByzCath said:
Can I ask you how you got a hold of the reject Sacramentary?

I have a collection of various prayer books and something like this might be cool to have.
Click to expand...
I was reading one of those trash sites that spews the drivel about “rejecting” the new translation and “holding out” by using the “1998 Sacramentary” instead. It had a link on it.
 
ByzCath said:
Can I ask you how you got a hold of the reject Sacramentary?

I have a collection of various prayer books and something like this might be cool to have.
Click to expand...

Here is a link to the full 1998 Sacramentary, it shows how to download it and everything 🙂

I think we need to lighten things up a bit. It’s Christmas, not a time of snap and sorrow!

Also, I found that site through a Google search. I don’t endorse it, it’s anti-New Translation, it should be avoided, but it has good links to downloads and such!
 
YoungTradCath said:
The “Introductory Rites” consist of: asperges (four options), or a penitential rite (twelve options), or a “litany of praise” (twenty-four options), or a Kyrie (six options), or a Gloria (three options), and you couldn’t combine options (as in, have a Penitential Act, the Kyrie and then the Gloria as it was for probably a thousand years previously). I am not joking. That is forty-nine options, just for the beginning part of mass. That is such a disastrous, radical departure from the structure of the Roman Rite that I can’t even begin put it into words. Thankfully, LA and the CDWDS killed that before it could ever lay its venomous touch on us.

That is what I mean. Sure, the future LOTH will likely be very slightly different even in the English translation as to accommodate for small differences like feast days and whatnot. That’s fine, and it’s always been like that even before VII. But the vast majority of it will be the same for all English speaking countries. LA does not allow for major wreckovations like I wrote about above.
Click to expand...
You’re being slightly disingenuous here.

First of all there have always been 4 Gregorian options for the sung Asperges me or Vidi Aquam (Paschal time). There are 18 legitimate Kyrie/Gloria (if appropriate to season)/Sanctus/Agnus Dei combinations to use; with ad libitum combinations possible, plus another bunch of ad libitum combinations of Kyries, Glorias, etc though some are specific to certain kinds of feasts or season. There are currently 4 approved schemas for the Benedictine Monastic Divine Office; there are numerous Cistercian ones as well and individual abbeys have their own variations (and sometimes their own office) since Benedictine communities have considerable latitude in designing their Office, as long as they select from the Thesaurus Liturgiae Monasticae and have a minimum of 75 psalms per week (the Rule of St. Benedict specifically allows for latitude in designing an office, only requiring that 150 psalms be said in a week).

Since 1910, in fact, the Monastic and Roman Rite Divine Offices have been completely different; in fact the Roman one is barely recognizable (at least by psalm order) to the Monastic of that era; you could fairly say that the Monastic Divine Office of 1910 is about as different from the Roman one of 1910 as the 1962 Divine Office is different from the 1970 LOTH.

Then let us not forget the Ambrosian and Mozarabic rites for the Mass, still in local use, and soon the Anglican Use as well, although I’m not sure if the Anglican Ordinariate is a part of the Roman Rite or will be a completely different Church like the other sui juris Churches.

If anything Vatican II led to a great simplification of possibilities. For instance the classes of feasts, pre-Vatican II were:
According to the solemnity of the office or rite (see CALENDAR). Since the thirteenth century there are three kinds of feasts: festum simplex, semiduplex, and duplex, all three regulated by the recitation of the Divine Office or Breviary. The simple feast commences with the chapter (capitulum) of First Vespers, and ends with None. It has three lessons and takes the psalms of Matins from the ferial office; the rest of the office is like the semidouble. The semidouble feast has two Vespers, nine lessons in Matins, and ends with Compline. The antiphons before the psalms are only intoned. In the Mass, the semidouble has always at least three “orationes” or prayers. On a double feast the antiphons are sung in their entirety, before and after the psalms. In Lauds and Vespers there are no suffragia of the saints, and the Mass has only one “oratio” (if there be no commemoration prescribed). The ordinary double feasts are called duplicia minora; occurring with feasts of a higher rank, they can be simplified, except the octave days of some feasts and the feasts of the Doctors of the Church, which are transferred. The feasts of a higher rank are the duplicia majora (introduced by Clement VIII), the duplicia secundae classis and the duplicia primae classis. Some of the latter two classes are kept with octaves.
Click to expand...
(www.newadvent.org)

If you look at a pre-Vatican II breviary and calendar, there are so many feasts of various sorts that an ordinary feria was a rare thing indeed.

These are the sorts of things that kept the Divine Office out of reach of the laity. Vatican II greatly simplified the Office, so that even the Monastic Office is within reach of the Laity provided they have the time for the extra psalms (the psalm order is the same as described by St. Benedict in his Rule, but the calendar is the modern calendar and liturgical year).

Interestingly, many of the simplifications were actually started pre-Vatican II. Annibale Bugnini was appointed to reform the liturgy by Pius XII and under his reign, some simplifications to the calendar were also introduced, and in the chanted Office, he simplified the usage of the antiphon so that the antiphon was always sung in its entirety pre and post psalmody unlike noted in the quote above.
 
OraLabora said:
You’re being slightly disingenuous here.

First of all there have always been 4 Gregorian options for the sung Asperges me or Vidi Aquam (Paschal time). There are 18 legitimate Kyrie/Gloria (if appropriate to season)/Sanctus/Agnus Dei combinations to use; with ad libitum combinations possible, plus another bunch of ad libitum combinations of Kyries, Glorias, etc though some are specific to certain kinds of feasts or season. There are currently 4 approved schemas for the Benedictine Monastic Divine Office; there are numerous Cistercian ones as well and individual abbeys have their own variations (and sometimes their own office) since Benedictine communities have considerable latitude in designing their Office, as long as they select from the Thesaurus Liturgiae Monasticae and have a minimum of 75 psalms per week (the Rule of St. Benedict specifically allows for latitude in designing an office, only requiring that 150 psalms be said in a week).

Since 1910, in fact, the Monastic and Roman Rite Divine Offices have been completely different; in fact the Roman one is barely recognizable (at least by psalm order) to the Monastic of that era; you could fairly say that the Monastic Divine Office of 1910 is about as different from the Roman one of 1910 as the 1962 Divine Office is different from the 1970 LOTH.
Click to expand...
Okay, I realize that. The words were the same but the music was different. In this 1998 Sacramentary, the texts for each “option” of all of those things I listed are completely different. It’s not as if the text is the same but set to different music. No. That would be 100% fine, indeed even glorious. But each of the “options” is completely different textually; the words are all different.

I’m not complaining about musical setting. I’m complaining that the wreckovators came very close to destroying the structure and patrimony of the Roman Rite in a very intrinsic way, by changing the very words of the majority of an entire section of the mass. I’m not talking about musical combinations, I’m talking about textual combinations, combinations so varied (49 options) that it would be near impossible to find two Catholic churches who did mass in even a slightly similar way.

If it was just music combinations, well, go for it.
 
LoyalViews said:

Here is a link to the full 1998 Sacramentary, it shows how to download it and everything 🙂

I think we need to lighten things up a bit. It’s Christmas, not a time of snap and sorrow!

Also, I found that site through a Google search. I don’t endorse it, it’s anti-New Translation, it should be avoided, but it has good links to downloads and such!
Click to expand...
That is exactly the awful site I got the 1998 Sacramentary from.
 
Much thanks for the link… I’ve ‘squirreled’ this and a couple of other things away for some future unknown need. 😃
 
Mr. Holford, please reassure me that the British are not going to abandon their beautiful edition of The Devine Office for the American one. Even though I am an American, I have been praying the British edition of Morning and Evening Prayer since I purchased it at the Vatican bookstore in 1999. I thought it was telling that they didn’t carry the American edition. I have been told that as a laywoman, I can use any approved edition I want, (since I am not required to pray the Hours), and still be praying with the Church. I had read about the British edition in an American liturgical publication, and I like it much more that the American one. When I have compared it to the American edition, the antiphons did not seem to be the same. Who came up with these “psalm prayers?” I also love the beautiful hymns in the British edition, especially the ones for the feasts of saints. I have actually copied out the words of some of these hymns, and matched them to appropriate tunes so that I could sing them at the piano. I took my Morning and Evening prayer book to the Holy Father’s vespers at St. Peter’s last Saturday, and could see, from my meager Latin and Italian, that the antiphons were the ones that were used there. It was wonderful to be able to pray along since the vernacular here is Italian. My copy is falling apart, and I am holding it together with a rubber band. Do I need to go to Amazon.com.uk right away to order another copy, or do I have time to wait?!
 
Great. I just bought my first one a few months ago. Not that I have it figured out though.
 
Marysann, when the LOTH first came out in 1971, we were promised a new antiphonary for it “soon”. The first usable and official volume of that antiphonary, allowing the complete chanting of Sunday and feast day Vespers finally appeared 39 years later in 2010.

In Vatican terms, “soon” means “probably within a lifetime”. 😃

As for the volume for Lauds, the unofficial word is “you will have to wait a while”. That’s longer than “soon”.

I’ll wager that “soon” for a new LOTH means at best 10 yrs.
 
Marysann said:
Mr. Holford, please reassure me that the British are not going to abandon their beautiful edition of The Devine Office for the American one. Even though I am an American, I have been praying the British edition of Morning and Evening Prayer since I purchased it at the Vatican bookstore in 1999. I thought it was telling that they didn’t carry the American edition. I have been told that as a laywoman, I can use any approved edition I want, (since I am not required to pray the Hours), and still be praying with the Church. I had read about the British edition in an American liturgical publication, and I like it much more that the American one. When I have compared it to the American edition, the antiphons did not seem to be the same. Who came up with these “psalm prayers?” I also love the beautiful hymns in the British edition, especially the ones for the feasts of saints. I have actually copied out the words of some of these hymns, and matched them to appropriate tunes so that I could sing them at the piano. I took my Morning and Evening prayer book to the Holy Father’s vespers at St. Peter’s last Saturday, and could see, from my meager Latin and Italian, that the antiphons were the ones that were used there. It was wonderful to be able to pray along since the vernacular here is Italian. My copy is falling apart, and I am holding it together with a rubber band. Do I need to go to Amazon.com.uk right away to order another copy, or do I have time to wait?!
Click to expand...
Marysann I, unfortunately, have no control over the liturgy. I have heard nothing, not even a rumour, that there might be changes to the Divine Office. That means nothing as our bishops’ conference are not as forthcoming about matters liturgical as is the American one. I am glad that you like our breviary. I, too, am very happy with it. I cannot comment on it regarding your own LOTH because I have never seen it. Although it’s not unusual to find American liturgical books in my local Catholic book shop, I’ve never seen LOTH. If any changes do come I hope that we can maintain our own version, in the spirit of the Roman Rite. I suspect, and hope, that any changes are a very long way off. Matthew:)
 
I’ve never found it anywhere in spite of searching far and wide.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top