New Catholic Convert, Protestant Family Wedding: Please Help!

[Mrs_Mac]

Hello everyone,

I converted to the Catholic Church this past Easter after 47 years as an Episcopalian. I need some help with a thorny family situation.

My brother-in-law is an LCMS Lutheran pastor. My sister and their four grown children are likewise very well-grounded in their Lutheran faith. Their son, my nephew (25), has just announced his intention to marry his divorced girlfriend in August.

The bride was raised Catholic but left the Church at age 19 to join various Protestant denominations. I do not know whether her first wedding was Catholic. I do not believe there was any anullment. She and her first husband joined my BIL’s church while they were still married, and my nephew began to date her at some point during her separation. She has two pre-school aged children. The first marriage lasted five years.

We have been advised that this will be a traditional wedding complete with white gown, bridesmaids, and a big reception with lots of dancing. And yes, my BIL will be performing the ceremony. Neither my family, including my Episcopalian parents, nor the bride’s Catholic family seem to have any problem with any of this.

On the other hand, my husband (Catholic) and I both believe the teachings of our faith regarding the sacramental and permanent nature of marriage as proclaimed by Christ in the Gospels. Should we attend the ceremony and reception? And what is the best way for us to act as good witnesses to the Truth?

I didn’t expect to be put to the test this soon!

Thank you. Blessings,

Mrs_Mac

 

[rwoehmke]

If you didn’t know that the girls background was once a Catholic, what would you do? Sounds to me that to all intents and purposes this is a protestant wedding between two protestants. I guess I would attend but I sure wouldn’t be falling all over them with congratulations and all that support stuff. Now if everyone involved still saw her as a Catholic I would have a problem.

 

[estesbob]

Hello everyone,

I converted to the Catholic Church this past Easter after 47 years as an Episcopalian. I need some help with a thorny family situation.

My brother-in-law is an LCMS Lutheran pastor. My sister and their four grown children are likewise very well-grounded in their Lutheran faith. Their son, my nephew (25), has just announced his intention to marry his divorced girlfriend in August.

The bride was raised Catholic but left the Church at age 19 to join various Protestant denominations. I do not know whether her first wedding was Catholic. I do not believe there was any anullment. She and her first husband joined my BIL’s church while they were still married, and my nephew began to date her at some point during her separation. She has two pre-school aged children. The first marriage lasted five years.

We have been advised that this will be a traditional wedding complete with white gown, bridesmaids, and a big reception with lots of dancing. And yes, my BIL will be performing the ceremony. Neither my family, including my Episcopalian parents, nor the bride’s Catholic family seem to have any problem with any of this.

On the other hand, my husband (Catholic) and I both believe the teachings of our faith regarding the sacramental and permanent nature of marriage as proclaimed by Christ in the Gospels. Should we attend the ceremony and reception? And what is the best way for us to act as good witnesses to the Truth?

I didn’t expect to be put to the test this soon!

Thank you. Blessings,

Mrs_Mac

Skip the wedding, go to the reception.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

The bride was raised Catholic but left the Church at age 19 to join various Protestant denominations.

When you say “left” do you mean she just stopped going to Mass and started attending Protestant services? She’s still Catholic, in that case, unless she formally left the Church (letter to the bishop and all that jazz).

If she’s still Catholic, she’s still bound by Canon Law. My position probably won’t be the popular one, but I only attend weddings (ceremonies and/or receptions) involving Catholics when they take place in the Church, as I believe this is necessary to remain faithful to Church teaching.

It’s a very tough spot to be in; God bless you for seeking to do the right thing!

 

[Eileen_T]

When my BIL (raised Catholic) married a divorcee in a Protestant church we skipped the ceremony, but for the sake of family relations we attended the reception.

This has meant we are on friendly terms with the couple and can enter into dialogue where we explain CC teaching. At least they listen. If we weren’t on good terms we would not have the opportunity to reach out to them.

My eldest daughter is planning to marry a divorced man who is the father of her baby. She is aware that I will not be at any ceremony if it does not take place in the Catholic Church. She respects that decision even though she doesn’t practice her Faith. My stand means that there will probably be an effort to seek an annulment and have the marriage right before God.

 

[shawn34_a]

Hello everyone,

The bride was raised Catholic but left the Church at age 19 to join various Protestant denominations. I do not know whether her first wedding was Catholic. I do not believe there was any anullment. She and her first husband joined my BIL’s church while they were still married, and my nephew began to date her at some point during her separation. She has two pre-school aged children. The first marriage lasted five years.

Thank you. Blessings,

Mrs_Mac

If the bride was married in the Catholic church, she would need an annulment from the first marriage if she’s to get married again in the Catholic church.

If her first marriage was not in a Catholic church then the Catholic church doesn’t recognize it anyways.

Basically the annulment is only an issue if she’s to get married in the Catholic church.

I wouldn’t worry about it anyways. The Catholic church is rediculous on this issue for they always find a reason to annul a previous marriage if needed. I spoken with many people on this issue and not one could think of an instance where the Catholic church has not annulled a marriage. I think the only two justifiable reasons for divorce Jesus mentioned are adultery and abandonment.

 

[kage_ar]

The above posted claims to be Catholic and does not believe the Catholic laws on marriage nor read the Bible, not exactly the person from whom I’d take cannon law advice…

Anyway, if the girl was Catholic and never formally defected, she is still bound by to follow the Catholic rules on marriage. Is this nephew very close to you? Do they live in the same city?

This might be a chance for you to lovingly explain to nephew and “intended” what the rules are, maybe get a copy of the little booklet by Jimmy Akin on Annulments - and be a witness to the Faith.

Speak to your Priest or Spiritual advisor.

 

[mdgspencer]

If she was validly married as a Catholic I would not go myself to the wedding. If you are not sure, you could ask your parish priest. Going to the reception may be a different matter. However, for myself, I would not join in celebrating someone’s sin.

 

[Mrs_Mac]

Thank you very much for all of your replies. My gut feeling is that I will have to attend this wedding anyway, for no other reason than that my parents are 83 years old and I am called upon to respect them.

My question then is, what should I say to my BIL and the rest of the family on the occasion of this wedding? I feel like we’re all marooned in the desert and I have the only compass.

Blessings,

Mrs_Mac

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Attend the wedding not because you “have to” but because you “want to”. Attending it and being there shows support for your family, which is a good thing. It is a happy day for the couple, so while you can choose to not participate in every Lutheran ritual it means more to the bride and groom for you to be there than not be there.

 

[shawn34_a]

Thank you very much for all of your replies. My gut feeling is that I will have to attend this wedding anyway, for no other reason than that my parents are 83 years old and I am called upon to respect them.

My question then is, what should I say to my BIL and the rest of the family on the occasion of this wedding? I feel like we’re all marooned in the desert and I have the only compass.

Blessings,

Mrs_Mac

Do not hold them in judgment for we’ve all fallen short of the glory of God and wish them much success.

 

[otjm]

If the bride was married in the Catholic church, she would need an annulment from the first marriage if she’s to get married again in the Catholic church.

If her first marriage was not in a Catholic church then the Catholic church doesn’t recognize it anyways.

It is not as simplw as that; it may depend on whether she formally left the Church or not.

I wouldn’t worry about it anyways. The Catholic church is rediculous on this issue for they always find a reason to annul a previous marriage if needed. I spoken with many people on this issue and not one could think of an instance where the Catholic church has not annulled a marriage. I think the only two justifiable reasons for divorce Jesus mentioned are adultery and abandonment.

It would appear that you are not familiar with the annulment process, as the tribunals do deny some annulments; further, there is a process of weeding out cases before they are submitted if they do not have the grounds or the proof of the grounds. It does appear that there is a very high percentage of annulments granted, but given the terrible state of catechesis over the last 30 or 40 years, it is amazing that anyone would be surprised; what would be more surprising is that people could actually have a sacramental marriage; if they have no idea what that is, and do not agree with the Church’s positions on permanency of marriage (one of the prerequisites - have you looked at divorce statistics recently, and do you really think they are approaching marriage as a pemanent relationship?), or the need to be open to children, then the grounds for an annulment exist from the beginning of marriage.

 

[otjm]

Thank you very much for all of your replies. My gut feeling is that I will have to attend this wedding anyway, for no other reason than that my parents are 83 years old and I am called upon to respect them.

My question then is, what should I say to my BIL and the rest of the family on the occasion of this wedding? I feel like we’re all marooned in the desert and I have the only compass.

Blessings,

Mrs_Mac

Sometimes the less said, the better.

Do you like to be preached to? Probably not. And the probability is that neither the groom nor the bride want to be preached to, either.

The old phrase “there are more flies drawn to honey than to vinegar” stands true for witnessing to the Gospel as much as anything else.

Unless and until they indicate they are open to discussing the question, you might want to presume that they are not.

I know that all sorts of people have a real problem with that as they see it as condoning the behavior. To begin with, if the couple does not see it as wrong, they are going to look at you as someone who doesn’t have a clue. And that goes to the sinfulness of their actions - there may be objectively wrong behavior, but for it to be sinful for them, they have to know it. And if they “know” - as in, they really believe they are not doing wrong, your telling them they are without being asked is going to bounce off like a rubber ball against granite; it won’t even leave a mark.

And if they do know that it is wrong, how many people do you know who are open to discussing it (note, I said discussing it, not being told it)? Some are, and they ususally indicate their willingness to listen. Many are not; and accusing them of the wrong only pushes them further away.

St Francis is said to have instructed his monks “preach the Gospel; if necessary, use words”. One might consider that.

If you are asked, you might want to reply in some way other than formulaic, as in “The Church says…”. You might start with what you understand to be a sacrament, and what you understand of Christ’s comments about marriage, adultery and divorce.

 

[mdgspencer]

I wouldn’t talk to them about wrongdong at the wedding or reception if you are going. I would let them know my opinion later on as the opportunity occurs. You wouldn’t have to “preach” to them, but you could gently let them know what you think.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

On the other hand Mrs Mac it took you 47 yrs before converting, right? something to consider, they are getting married for one, not living together, and in a church not on city halls steps because God isnt revelent anymore.

With all the awfullness in this world that is a cause for celebration. Why dont you try to be a great Aunt, supportive and encouraging. Not condemming, believe me shes divorced she probably has enough of that.

Show them all you are not that Catholic stereotype they expect, and they may become interested in your church. Or not but possibly hang onto their faith and not wander off from the Lord as a lot do. Im not saying say or do anything against your church, dont get me wrong, just remember be regular and approachable and let God do the rest.

 

[mdgspencer]

I agree that it is good to be gentle with people. Still, I don’t think that we should proceed as if something wrong morally is right. It is true thoug, and I agree to this extent, that forceful criticism may not be helpful. This all would have to be up to the discernment of the person involoved.

The preceding post said:

On the other hand Mrs Mac it took you 47 yrs before converting, right? something to consider, they are getting married for one, not living together, and in a church not on city halls steps because God isnt revelent anymore.

With all the awfullness in this world that is a cause for celebration. Why dont you try to be a great Aunt, supportive and encouraging. Not condemming, believe me shes divorced she probably has enough of that.

Show them all you are not that Catholic stereotype they expect, and they may become interested in your church. Or not but possibly hang onto their faith and not wander off from the Lord as a lot do. Im not saying say or do anything against your church, dont get me wrong, just remember be regular and approachable and let God do the rest.

 

[toaslan]

It is loving to be honest and true with your loved ones. Because the truth is evasive in this case does not mean it is not worth the effort to get at it, and serve it if you can, always in charity.

The big unknown is whether the bride’s first marriage is over! Was she validly married or not? If so, then she is still married. Even if we could say she was no longer a member of the Catholic Church when she first married, it is still possible for non-Catholics to achieve sacramental marriages. The conditions for sacramental marriage are one man & one women, both baptized, open to children, intend to faithfully live together for life, of age, single and free to marry, able to have sexual intercourse, and not otherwise prohibited (like by a too-close familial relation) from marrying.

The Catholic Church takes seriously the marriage between any two baptized persons, Catholic or not, provided the basics of marriage are fulfilled as just stated. (There are additional rules for Catholic marriage.)

Would it be possible to ask your nephew-in-law for a finding on whether her previous marriage was a valid marriage or not? In other words, is she not still married now? Why not? For example, if you heard that she first married intending never to have children, or she and that husband repeated vows to live together “as long as love shall last” (!), then the marriage probably would not have been valid to begin with. What would your nephew’s answer be?

Then, even if she is now free to marry: to be free of Catholic Church law she would need to formally separate herself from Church membership by a letter to that effect to the bishop of, I suppose, the diocese of her baptism (?). Otherwise, she would be attempting marriage outside the Church, and her marriage would be considered invalid by the Catholic Church.

Contrary to some of the posters on this thread, I do not think these are legalistic issues. The sadness caused by “irregular” marriages runs deep.

Keep in mind that we are trying to avoid having loved ones united not in marriage but possibly in a state of sin. They could be headed into an objectively adulterous life. That’s one of the big ones. If we care for them, this is the kind of thing we fret about.

I have never found that if something is said humbly, gently, kindly, and in unconditional love with no ultimatums, and let me repeat humbly, that it causes a family breach. And such intervention can be appreciated because it shows you care enough to keep it real.

If one cannot determine what the truth is, I probably would not go because of the likelihood of participating in, ratifying and approving by one’s presence, the union of two people prohibited from marrying each other. There is another reason for hesitation–people will be watching what you do now that you are a Catholic. It is a legitimate and kind choice to skip the wedding, attend the reception and give a nice gift.

 

[rwoehmke]

When you say “left” do you mean she just stopped going to Mass and started attending Protestant services? She’s still Catholic, in that case, unless she formally left the Church (letter to the bishop and all that jazz).

If she’s still Catholic, she’s still bound by Canon Law. My position probably won’t be the popular one, but I only attend weddings (ceremonies and/or receptions) involving Catholics when they take place in the Church, as I believe this is necessary to remain faithful to Church teaching.

It’s a very tough spot to be in; God bless you for seeking to do the right thing!

I know there is a ruling to this effect now, but lets look at it from the other end of the telescope. Someone who walks off and joins a series of other churches is not going to be particularly concerned with canon law until such time as they might decide to return. In my opinion this rule/law is only of use to a tribunal who after the fact has to sort out what went on in previous marriages. It is like telling someone as they step off the balcony on the 15th Floor, “Don’t stop breathing till you hit the sidewalk. It’s a rule.” In her conscience this lady is a protestant of some sort and the rule isn’t going to fix that. It has its uses, but it’s in most cases an exercise in futility.

 

[shawn34_a]

It does appear that there is a very high percentage of annulments granted, but given the terrible state of catechesis over the last 30 or 40 years, it is amazing that anyone would be surprised; what would be more surprising is that people could actually have a sacramental marriage; if they have no idea what that is, and do not agree with the Church’s positions on permanency of marriage (one of the prerequisites - have you looked at divorce statistics recently, and do you really think they are approaching marriage as a pemanent relationship?), or the need to be open to children, then the grounds for an annulment exist from the beginning of marriage.

I’m quite familiar with the process due to my sister’s divorce. I was amazed at how quickly she was able to obtain an annulment. I’m sure there are divorces in which the church did not grant an annulment, but I surely have not come across one and neither has my family.

 

[armywife]

I could be wrong but I remember Jimmy Akin saying on Q&A show that is a Catholic formally joins another church then they can be considered a non-catholic. If they just “church-hop” then they still are Catholic.

In the first instance, there would be no problem in attending the wedding as they are not formally Catholic anymore. The second example, they would still need to be reminded of the rules a Catholic must follow.