New Chaldean patriarch enthroned, pledges to 'update our liturgy'

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malphono said:
I’m watching it now … I see HB Ignatious Yousef (SCC) and HB Gerogious II (Melkite) and a representative of the Maronites (not sure who it was) in attendance in choir. I also what appears to be at least one Greek Orthodox, one Armenian Orthodox, and at least one kosita (I think 2), so I have to assume that at least one ACoE bishop was present in choir. 🙂 I haven’t noticed a koub’ono, so I don’t know if a representative of the SOC was there.

Unless I’m mistaken, I think I recognize Mar Youhannan Zora (Chaldean bishop from Toronto) who seems to have a major part in the proceedings.

Some of the chant is remarkable (the processional was wonderful), some (mainly that not in Syriac) less so, but personally I’m not thrilled with the organ accompaniment. The typically Mesopotamian violins are better, but still a little untraditional, as are the flutes. There seems to be more Arabic than I would care to hear, but I suppose that’s an accommodation to the non-Christian dignitaries present (e.g. I notice the Nouri al-Malaki but am not sure if I saw Jalal Talabani or not).

All in all, however, I am thrilled with being able to see this. 😃 Much more agreeable to me than was the enthronement of my own Patriarch. 😦
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Opps … I made a typo on at least one name: HB Gregorious III. :o

And I think the Maronite representative may have been the Patriarchal V-G, Mor Paul Sayyah.

Anyway, it was a beautiful service. [insert wistful-smile smiley here] 😃
 
chaldobyzantine said:
And yes, Mar Ibrahim not too long ago decided to use the Syro-Malabar mitre. The current English pew books have the Syro-Malabar cross on them, and the central cross at Holy Martyrs parish is also a carving of the Syro-Malabar cross. I’m not sure why he did that though.
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If only the Chaldean hierarchy would leave behind the western mitres and wear the Byzantine-style mitres used by the Assyrian Church of the East aina.org/ata/20100914213824.htm

I really do hope that when His Beatitude talks about updating the liturgy that he has restoration in mind.

I am disappointed that he has decided not wear the shash, especially in light of his reasoning:
“To me it is a dated tradition that is linked to local folklore. I want to be simple and direct and avoid creating barriers with others. Even ways of dressing can form barriers to some extent. So no Shash but possibly something simpler.”
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I hope that is not his attitude toward the liturgy.

I was looking at video of the Papal Mass for the Opening of the Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops in 2010 and couldn’t believe that I was seeing the Chaldean bishops including then-Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Emmanuel III Delly wearing green Roman chasubles.:eek:
Click the following link and go to the last photo to see His Beatitude in green Roman vestments: vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/photogallery/2010/20101010/index.html

I hope this is not what it means to “update”.
 
griego_catolico said:
I was looking at video of the Papal Mass for the Opening of the Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops in 2010 and couldn’t believe that I was seeing the Chaldean bishops including then-Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Emmanuel III Delly wearing green Roman chasubles.:eek:
Click the following link and go to the last photo to see His Beatitude in green Roman vestments: vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/photogallery/2010/20101010/index.html

I hope this is not what it means to “update”.
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I recall actually when that happened. I’m giving the Patriarch Emeritus the benefit of the doubt,believing he did not have his vestments like everyone else did at the time. But what I didn’t observe before is Major Archbishop Lucian Muresan’s mitre :eek: It’s basically Episcopal!
 
What, exactly, are the Latinizations of this Rite, and what, exactly, are the plausible re-Easternization counterpart practices? List form?
 
YoungTradCath said:
What, exactly, are the Latinizations of this Rite, and what, exactly, are the plausible re-Easternization counterpart practices? List form?
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Vestments, Stations of the Cross, a lack of a sanctuary veil, bad architecture, kneelers, versus populum, promotion of Rosary before liturgy instead Sapra (matins), overpromotion of Latin devotions such as the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, lack of Ramsha (Vespers), funeral mass instead of funeral service, eucharistic adoration, inclusion of musical instruments other than handheld bells and cymbals, communion under one species, disorganization of the order and rubrics of the liturgy, bad translations in every language with bad music to boot (often set to Roman Catholic tones), inclusion of awful hymns (also usually Novus Ordo inspired), lack of hymns of the Church of the East, low mass, daily mass, married men not being ordained to the priesthood, antagonism with the Assyrian Church of the East in some dioceses, the list goes on and on and on…
 
Why do the modernists in the Catholic Church consistently have such ugly, banal, terrible taste?

While some of the liberalest (is that a word) Episcopalian gay clergy celebrate high "Anglo-‘catholic’ style liturgy wearing Tridentine-style vestments – Even the women!

😦
 
SyroMalankara said:
Why do the modernists in the Catholic Church consistently have such ugly, banal, terrible taste?

While some of the liberalest (is that a word) Episcopalian gay clergy celebrate high "Anglo-‘catholic’ style liturgy wearing Tridentine-style vestments – Even the women!

😦
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As an outsider with limited experience looking in, this seems like the rule for both Catholics and Episcopalians! 😛
 
malphono said:
I’m watching it now … I see HB Ignatious Yousef (SCC) and HB Gerogious II (Melkite) and a representative of the Maronites (not sure who it was) in attendance in choir. I also what appears to be at least one Greek Orthodox, one Armenian Orthodox, and at least one kosita (I think 2), so I have to assume that at least one ACoE bishop was present in choir. 🙂 I haven’t noticed a koub’ono, so I don’t know if a representative of the SOC was there.

Unless I’m mistaken, I think I recognize Mar Youhannan Zora (Chaldean bishop from Toronto) who seems to have a major part in the proceedings.
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I recognize two Maronite bishops - Paul Sayah (sitting on the left side) and the Maronite Archbishop of Damascus Samir Nassar (sitting on the right side). The Greek Orthodox/Antiochian Orthodox Bishop is Bishop Luka Khoury of Saidnaya. The Armenian Orthodox Bishop is the Archbishop of Baghdad Avak Asadourian (Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin, not Cilicia). The Armenian Catholic Archbishop of Baghdad Emmanuel Dabbaghian was sitting on the right side. The two bishops with kosita are: Mar Gewargis Sliwa, Metropolitan of Baghdad and Iraq (Assyrian Church of the East), in black cassock and sitting on the left side and Mar Addai II, the Catholicos-Patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East, in purple cassock and sitting on the right side. Also sitting on the right side were the Syriac Catholic Bishops Emeriti of Baghdad and Mosul.
 
chaldobyzantine said:
The organ and violin were literally killing me. You don’t have to know Chaldean or Arabic to understand those instruments obviously have no place in the Chaldean Church! :mad:
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In watching the video for a short time, I can easily see what you mean.

On a different note however, what was nice to see is the warm welcome and obvious joy from the faithful during the entrance.
 
jwinch2 said:
ignitumtoday.com/2013/03/07/what-liturgy-means-to-me/

A bit of commentary on the situation.
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The author of that article doesn’t seem to understand the situation in the Chaldean church. The term might not be correct to say update or reform, but more correctly a restoration. What sense would it make to standardize the liturgy to be even more latinized than it already is? Delatinization is the only course we can go forward with, updating possibly meaning using a correct Aramaic Syriac translation of the liturgy, instead of varying on accents and including Arabic words.

The reform of 2006 also sought to make the liturgy mean more to the people, by including old testament readings and increasing active participation by listening to the Eucharistic prayers said aloud by the priest, instead of sung over by a non traditional hymn.
 
chaldobyzantine said:
The author of that article doesn’t seem to understand the situation in the Chaldean church. The term might not be correct to say update or reform, but more correctly a restoration. What sense would it make to standardize the liturgy to be even more latinized than it already is? Delatinization is the only course we can go forward with, updating possibly meaning using a correct Aramaic Syriac translation of the liturgy, instead of varying on accents and including Arabic words.

The reform of 2006 also sought to make the liturgy mean more to the people, by including old testament readings and increasing active participation by listening to the Eucharistic prayers said aloud by the priest, instead of sung over by a non traditional hymn.
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My take on the article is that only the first part was about the Chaldean liturgy, but the rest was about the Roman rite. They were lamenting the situation you find yourselves in, and tying that in to the Roman rite as well in the latter parts of the article.

That is, unless I completely misunderstood things, which is always possible.
 
The Reformed Chaldean Mass (Excerpts from www.Kaldu.org)

Q – When and how was this Reformed Mass put together?
A –The Reformed Chaldean Mass is the work of a Patriarchal Liturgical Committee begun by the last Patriarch, His Beatitude Raphael I Bidawid of blessed memory, interacting with the whole hierarchy of the Chaldean Church and continued under the patronage of our beloved Patriarch Mar Emmanuel III Delly. The Committee, comprised of experts in the Chaldean Liturgy, worked in cooperation with the Chaldean Synod of bishops for fifteen years before the Text of the Reformed Mass was finalized, approved and presented to the Holy See for official recognition. The most significant dates are as follows:
  • November 12, 2005 – the Chaldean Holy Synod in Rome approves the Reformed Missal.
  • February 18, 2006 – the Vatican gives the Reformed Missal its official recognition.
  • January 6, 2007 – the date given for the beginning of the New Mass by the Chaldean Holy Synod held in Shaqlawa, Iraq on May 9-11, 2006.
Q – What are some of the most dramatic changes?
A –While most of the changes in the Mass will be noticed mainly by the priest, some changes are even more visible, for example:
  • The Eucharistic Prayer or Anaphora, the most climactic moment of the Mass, is now said aloud by the priest, where before it was said silently. This allows the people to participate, by their conscious attention, in the entirety of the Mass.
  • The architecture of the ancient Chaldean Church was encouraged. For example, the Sanctuary Veil, symbolic of the veil of the Temple which was torn open by Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross, is reinstated.
  • There is greater movement in the Mass in the form of processions at the beginning of Mass, before the Gospel reading, and at the Presentation of the bread and wine.
  • The two Old Testament readings are re-stressed in the Sunday liturgy, giving greater opportunity to the Church to listen to the words of Holy Scripture.
http://www.kaldu.org/joomla/index.p...mass/80-q-and-a-on-the-reformed-chaldean-mass
 
Vico said:
The Reformed Chaldean Mass (Excerpts from www.Kaldu.org)

Q – When and how was this Reformed Mass put together?
A –The Reformed Chaldean Mass is the work of a Patriarchal Liturgical Committee begun by the last Patriarch, His Beatitude Raphael I Bidawid of blessed memory, interacting with the whole hierarchy of the Chaldean Church and continued under the patronage of our beloved Patriarch Mar Emmanuel III Delly. The Committee, comprised of experts in the Chaldean Liturgy, worked in cooperation with the Chaldean Synod of bishops for fifteen years before the Text of the Reformed Mass was finalized, approved and presented to the Holy See for official recognition. The most significant dates are as follows:
  • November 12, 2005 – the Chaldean Holy Synod in Rome approves the Reformed Missal.
  • February 18, 2006 – the Vatican gives the Reformed Missal its official recognition.
  • January 6, 2007 – the date given for the beginning of the New Mass by the Chaldean Holy Synod held in Shaqlawa, Iraq on May 9-11, 2006.
Q – What are some of the most dramatic changes?
A –While most of the changes in the Mass will be noticed mainly by the priest, some changes are even more visible, for example:
  • The Eucharistic Prayer or Anaphora, the most climactic moment of the Mass, is now said aloud by the priest, where before it was said silently. This allows the people to participate, by their conscious attention, in the entirety of the Mass.
  • The architecture of the ancient Chaldean Church was encouraged. For example, the Sanctuary Veil, symbolic of the veil of the Temple which was torn open by Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross, is reinstated.
  • There is greater movement in the Mass in the form of processions at the beginning of Mass, before the Gospel reading, and at the Presentation of the bread and wine.
  • The two Old Testament readings are re-stressed in the Sunday liturgy, giving greater opportunity to the Church to listen to the words of Holy Scripture.
http://www.kaldu.org/joomla/index.p...mass/80-q-and-a-on-the-reformed-chaldean-mass
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
 
Also:

Q. What about the other sacraments and ceremonies of the Church? Are they also going to be reformed?
A – Yes. As declared by the Patriarchal Commission, the Reform of the Chaldean Liturgy has begun with the Mass, and will continue its work of improving and revising all the other official prayers of the Church.
  • The next phase of the Reform will be the Naqpayatha or the Propers, the prayers and readings that are arranged to be said on every particular Sunday and Feast day of the year. In addition, this phase will encompass also the other two Eucharistic Prayers of the Mass, and provide readings and optional propers for Daily Mass.
  • The Reform will then look at the other Sacraments, such as Baptism and Confirmation, Marriage, Forgiveness or Reconciliation, Ordination and Anointing of the Sick, and sacramentals such as the Rite of Funerals, the Communion Service (“PreSanctified”), etc.
  • Finally, the Reform will turn to the Hudhra or Liturgy of the Hours.
kaldu.org/joomla/index.php/liturgy/the-reformed-chaldean-mass/95-liturgy/the-reformed-chaldean-mass/80-q-and-a-on-the-reformed-chaldean-mass
 
chaldobyzantine said:
The author of that article doesn’t seem to understand the situation in the Chaldean church. The term might not be correct to say update or reform, but more correctly a restoration. What sense would it make to standardize the liturgy to be even more latinized than it already is? Delatinization is the only course we can go forward with, updating possibly meaning using a correct Aramaic Syriac translation of the liturgy, instead of varying on accents and including Arabic words.
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Of course I agree with you in principle, but I have to interject something: one has to be very careful about “standardization” just as much as one has to be wary of the words “reform” and “update” etc. One look at the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinized Maronite liturgy is all it takes. Yep, it’s all standardized alright. Text, chant, you name it. As far as I’m concerned, it could hardly be worse, but I’m quite sure that it will get worse since the process of destruction is ongoing, even as I type this. And all of it under the banners of “reform” and “standardization” … :mad:

So … it seems to me that whether “standardization” is a good thing or not depends on the benchmark. I most sincerely hope and pray that the Chaldeans do not fall into the same “standardization” pit that has swallowed the Maronites. 😦
 
Can anyone provide two videos, one of the “worst” kind of Chaldean liturgy (uber Latinized, etc.) and the other containing the “best” kind of Chaldean liturgy, just so we can see the contrast?
 
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