New church building may not be a good thing

[vz71]

Hopefully someone can send me to the right place for reference materials.

My parish recently had a fire that burned the school to the ground.

Insurance money has come through, and we are on the path to rebuilding it.
The parish priest thinks it would be a great idea to have a church built on site connected to the school while we are also rebuilding the school.

I tend to agree. There is nothing as corrosive to the relationship between a church and the catholic school it is affiliated with as distance. And the distance here is several miles.

So it is a great idea, we are building a second church with the school.

Now the issues…
We apparently are not building a church.
We are building a large school with a ‘worship space’ contained within it.
The preliminary plans call for an octogon shaped building with the classrooms on the perimeter and the ‘worship space’ in the center.
There is no tabernacle to be found and the Altar appears to be slightly off center but still surrounded by seating for the parishoners.
I see no confessional, no stained glass windows (actually no windows at all).
There is however a skylight located in the center of the roof above the altar.

I have been witness to other parishes rebuilding their church and having the tradition and beauty of the building itself stripped away and turned into something that bears little resemblance to Cathoicism at all.
And I am afraid that may be happening here.

Are there some reference materials written by authorities within the church that specify the construction of a church?
I am afraid tradition may be getting swept aside in the excitement of the building process.
I am uncertain if I should be concerned or not at this point, but any reference materials I could scan through would help.
Thanks all.

 

[Corki]

Do I understand correctly that your parish isn’t moving the Church but rather keeping the original Church open and adding a second loctation?

A parish is usually one sanctuary. To have a second one either it is designated by the diocese as a mission or it is a chapel. (the exception to this being the fairly new concept of cluster parishes) Chapels may or may not have the authority to reserve the Blessed Sacrament. In our metropolitan area, for example, all the Catholic High schools have chapels but only a few are allowed to have a tabernacle. This is all up to the Bishop.

If this is not the main church building for the parish, I don’t think Confessionals are required but one would hope that the Catholic school offers Confession times for the students.

Sorry I can’t help with references. So much of what goes into building a Church is style rather than rules. There is probably someone in the chancery that deals with new construction and approvals that can give you information.

 

[Deacon_Avi]

Ecclesiastical buildings are usually divided into four classes:

churches properly so called,
public oratories,
private oratories, and
semi-public oratories.

This division was confirmed by the Congregation of Rites, 23 January, 1899 (Decreta authent. Congreg sacr. Rit. no. 4007, Rome, 1900). Churches are edifices set apart in perpetuity for the public exercise of Divine worship; such are basilicas, primatial, metropolitan, cathedral, collegiate and parish churches, and lastly the conventual churches of regulars, properly so called. Public oratories are buildings of less importance, definitely given over to Divine worship, and accessible to the public, whether the entrance itself be upon the public road or upon a passage-way leading to the latter. A private oratory is one established in favour of a particular family or even of a single individual. Finally, a semi-public oratory is established for the benefit of a number of people; such is the chapel of a seminary, a college, a congregation of simple vows, a hospital, a prison, etc. With these may be classed the chapels of cardinals and of bishops.

Try to look online for a copy of the Sacred Conregation of Rites…

 

[vz71]

Do I understand correctly that your parish isn’t moving the Church but rather keeping the original Church open and adding a second loctation?

My understanding is that the current building will stay open.
However the parish church is moving.
We will end up with an historic church building that has Mass said in it on special occasions and not much else.
There has even been talk of selling the old church building off.

If this is not the main church building for the parish, I don’t think Confessionals are required but one would hope that the Catholic school offers Confession times for the students.

One thing made very clear.
The new building is intended to be where the parish goes to church.
Their intent was to bring the church and the school together.
Since the parish demographic is growing where the school is, they are moving to the school location.
And confusion abounds.

Sorry I can’t help with references. So much of what goes into building a Church is style rather than rules. There is probably someone in the chancery that deals with new construction and approvals that can give you information.

Thanks for the help though.
I have more information then I had before your response.

 

[Corki]

My understanding is that the current building will stay open.
However the parish church is moving.
We will end up with an historic church building that has Mass said in it on special occasions and not much else.
There has even been talk of selling the old church building off.

One thing made very clear.
The new building is intended to be where the parish goes to church.
Their intent was to bring the church and the school together.
Since the parish demographic is growing where the school is, they are moving to the school location.
And confusion abounds.

If that’s the case, they are required to have confessionals and a place for the tabernace.

Confessionals are covered in canon law 964

§3 Except for a just reason, confessions are not to be heard elsewhere than in a confessional.

Tabernacles in canon 934

Can. 934 §1. The Most Holy Eucharist:

1/ must be reserved in the cathedral church or its equivalent, in every parish church, and in a church or oratory connected to the house of a religious institute or society of apostolic life;

Now given the shape you described it is possible that these are part of the design but just not visible from the nave.

 

[vz71]

Now given the shape you described it is possible that these are part of the design but just not visible from the nave.

Thanks.
I suppose there is the outside possibility that they are building the tabernacle into a wall or into a pillar not visible from the floor plans we have been shown.

Is it permissable to have the tabernacle located beside the Altar?

I am wondering because given the seating, the Altar is the only place that is in front of every pew, and when you genuflect, you should face the tabernacle.
It will look really odd if there are locations in the building that end up turning around to genuflect.

I am going to be discussing with the priest when I can, but I figure the more information I know in advance, the better.

 

[Corki]

Thanks.
I suppose there is the outside possibility that they are building the tabernacle into a wall or into a pillar not visible from the floor plans we have been shown.

Is it permissable to have the tabernacle located beside the Altar?

I am wondering because given the seating, the Altar is the only place that is in front of every pew, and when you genuflect, you should face the tabernacle.
It will look really odd if there are locations in the building that end up turning around to genuflect.

I am going to be discussing with the priest when I can, but I figure the more information I know in advance, the better.

Although I don’t care for the practice, in some Churches the tabernacle is in an alcove or even in a seperate room. Sometimes they do this to make it easier (so they say) to have 24 hour adoration even when the main Church is being used for Mass, wedding rehersals, etc. In any case, if you can see the tabernacle, you genuflect. If you can’t you are supposed to bow to the altar (no genuflection).

And yes, there are some weird gymnastics you sometimes have to endure. At one Chuch near where I used to work, the tabernacle was in the back. You would enter the Church, turn your back on the altar to genuflect to the tabernacle and then procede to your pew. If you came in the side, you went to your pew, spun around 180 degrees to genuflect to the tabernacle and then spin back around to go into your pew. It was (and still is) a crazy set up.

 

[puzzleannie]

I think the first people to talk to is the office in the diocese in charge of capital campaigns and building projects. There are several related issues
when a new Church can be built and where
legal ownership of the parish plant, the Church and the school, which may be separate
what boards or councils govern each

rules for where an oratory or chapel may be built, most of all, where Eucharist may be regularly celebrated and the Sacrament reserved.

I assume the priest has already cleared the plans with the diocese, but that is the first question to ask.

not sure what you mean by the “proximity” issue.

my grandchildren attend a regional Catholic school not affiliated with any parish, run under diocesan guidance with a board, principal etc. that as no mutual support aggreements of any kind with surrounding parishes. They just got permission from their new bishop for a permanent chapel with reservation because the closest parish (now with a new pastor) has agreed to supply a priest for regular Mass (he will also teach), which apparently the rules call for. Before that the “chapel” had been really a multi-purpose room. Now it is a dedicated chapel, no other activities take place their except liturgical and related (choir practice for instance).

my other grandchild attends a “formerly Catholic” school that merged with another school of another denominations, and their chapel was de-commissioned, de-consecrated, whatever you call it, because Mass will no longer be celebrated on campus since the student body is no longer primarily or even identified as CAtholic. There were a lot of issues with that change due to the founding and endowment of the school and there was all kinds of legal action needed, as well as canon law action, so this merger could happen.

this is digressing, but there is a lot more involved than “would it not be nice to have a chapel attached to the school.”

I am also not clear from OP if the priest’s new building replaces the existing parish church (is it not the school rather than the church that is being rebuilt?) or if this new building is in addition to the existing church? There cannot be two churches in one parish except under special circumstances (we are researching that issue in my current parish, as the new church will be built on a property several blocks away, and the issue is what happens to the existing church–will it become in effect a “chapel” for the regional Catholic school next door, or will there continue to be Masses, sacraments at St. Downtown Parish on some regular basis, as with a mission, but both church buildings still identified as St. Downtown.

It seems Corki’s parish plans something similar to what we are considering.
The document we were given to read is Built of LIving Stones (everything you wish you never new about church architecture in modern America).

apparently we can’t tear down the old church until its status as a historic building is resolved, nor is it sound from an engineering POV to attach it to the school building.

 

[vz71]

I am also not clear from OP if the priest’s new building replaces the existing parish church (is it not the school rather than the church that is being rebuilt?) or if this new building is in addition to the existing church? There cannot be two churches in one parish except under special circumstances (we are researching that issue in my current parish, as the new church will be built on a property several blocks away, and the issue is what happens to the existing church–will it become in effect a “chapel” for the regional Catholic school next door, or will there continue to be Masses, sacraments at St. Downtown Parish on some regular basis, as with a mission, but both church buildings still identified as St. Downtown.

The school is being rebuilt.
They are building a ‘worship space’ with a capacity of 300 into the school.
They plan to move the rectory, church hall, etc. from its current location to the campus where the school is located.
The church building we have will likely become a chapel.

It seems Corki’s parish plans something similar to what we are considering.
The document we were given to read is Built of LIving Stones (everything you wish you never new about church architecture in modern America).

apparently we can’t tear down the old church until its status as a historic building is resolved, nor is it sound from an engineering POV to attach it to the school building.

Correct, that is one problem we have run into.
The current building is over 100 years old and is on the historic registry.
It can be sold, but the property cannot be modified without going through several pounds of red tape. Anyone care to guess what the market is for a building that cannot be modified? In our case, there is no market. So the church cannot be sold off.
I imagine the priest has received the permission from the Bishop for a second church as the Bishop has visited several times and is well advised of the plans.

The fact that they are calling it ‘Worship Space’ instead of church is bothering me.
In the back of my mind I can’t shake the feeling that we are going to end up having a gym with pews.

 

[SunnaB16]

In the back of my mind I can’t shake the feeling that we are going to end up having a gym with pews.

Or maybe just plastic chairs, and no kneelers?

The term “worship space” should ring an alarm in the mind of any orthodox Catholic.

The whole scheme sounds revolting!

 

[vz71]

Or maybe just plastic chairs, and no kneelers?

The term “worship space” should ring an alarm in the mind of any orthodox Catholic.

The whole scheme sounds revolting!

Revolting, maybe.
But I do not have enough information to know for certain.

If this combination building is done right, it could be great.
If done wrong however, it could be hideous.

There is an example in this city of another school with the church built into it.
From the outside, you cannot tell there is a church, it just looks like an exceptionally large school building.
But on the inside, it looks like you have stepped into a miniature cathedral.

I pray this is what they are aiming for, but the words ‘worship space’ keep telling me something different.