New Church, Novel Practices

[Corki]

btw, a glass tabernacle is wrong look at girm 314 if you dont belive me

I know that. All of those things are wrong yet evidently the Archbishop approved them.

 

[Phemie]

There is a great deal of talk of bishops owning things. I believe that it is the diocese that is the juridic person that owns diocesan property rather than the bishop. Of course, the bishop is the natural person that represents the diocese. When a bishop retires, is transferred to another diocese, dies, etc. it isn’t necessary to transfer ownership to the new bishop. This is because the property belongs to the diocese. This is what I understand of canon law. Under the civil law of the country things may be different. In England and Wales it is still the diocese that owns the property. To give each diocese a legal identity under English Law, each one is set up as a charity. The natural persons who exercise the powers of this legal person are a board of trustees. In each case the bishop is one of these and appoints the others.

Likewise in parishes, under canon law, the parish is a juridic person that can acquire, own and dispose of property. The parish priest is the natural person acting for this juridic person. This can become blurred because under our civil law the parish is legally part of the same charitable trust as the diocese.

Parishes have, under canon law, separate rights to property. If the bishop or diocese acts contrary to canon law there is provision for the parish to take legal action against the bishop and/or diocese.

I think this is the case in Canada, or at least in our province. When our diocese was suppressed and the parishes transferred to the jurisdiction of 3 other dioceses, the parish capital assets were transferred to the dioceses.

It may be because in our case the diocese purchased the land and built our church 50 years ago to establish the Catholic Church in this isolated new community. When we file reports with the goverment, the capital assets are reported by the diocese, not the parish.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I think this is the case in Canada, or at least in our province. When our diocese was suppressed and the parishes transferred to the jurisdiction of 3 other dioceses, the parish capital assets were transferred to the dioceses.

It may be because in our case the diocese purchased the land and built our church 50 years ago to establish the Catholic Church in this isolated new community. When we file reports with the goverment, the capital assets are reported by the diocese, not the parish.

Unfortunately, I don’t think this is a rare event. The diocese does from time to time appropriate the assets that really belong to parishes. Most people are unaware that the diocese should not do this. And, because there’s no distinction between the two in civil law there’s no recourse to civil law. I’m not for one moment suggesting we go around suing dioceses but I think they might behave differently if this were a possibility.

 

[Phemie]

Unfortunately, I don’t think this is a rare event. The diocese does from time to time appropriate the assets that really belong to parishes. Most people are unaware that the diocese should not do this. And, because there’s no distinction between the two in civil law there’s no recourse to civil law. I’m not for one moment suggesting we go around suing dioceses but I think they might behave differently if this were a possibility.

In our diocese we’ve seen land and buildings in various parishes sold off to raise the millions necessary to pay the sex abuse settlements imposed by the courts. In some cases the ‘buyers’ donated the land and buildings back to the parishes. The court considered all those things to belong the diocese when it came to establishing its ability to pay.

What I don’t understand is why, if canonically parishes are independent, the diocese can impose a ceiling on spending. We had to ask for permission to spend over $5000 to repair our windows. In the end it cost us less since a new millionaire family in the parish donated them.

Some of these rules are jokes. I know that at the diocesan level only certain people can approve payments of more than $5000. When they are the only people available to sign for larger amounts they just write as many $5000 cheques as necessary. I became aware of that when I was sent three $5000 cheques instead of the customary $15,000 cheque to deposit to a parish account.