New Creation vs. filthy rags or totally depraved

[Seamus_Sully]

We are a new creation.

We are children of God.

We are brothers of Jesus.

We have new hearts.

We have them now.

We are given these great gifts.

Our natural self might be hurt by original sin, but we now have a new heart that partakes in the Divine Nature.

God’s love is poured into our hearts.

We are a new creation.

God is Our Father.

Moses was only a friend of God.

Abraham was only a friend of God.

We are now children of God.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The “filthy rags” quote is one of the most abused passages in scripture, it is a classical example of a misquoted and out of context verse that has become a standard protestant go-to “proof text.”

Its really sad when I talk to Protestants about obeying Jesus and such and they come back with stuff like “all my works are as filthy rags”…no joke…its sad…really…

 

[Pax]

You are so right about ripping that one out of context. I even had an evangelical friend of mine gasp in surprise when I gave him the context of the verse and where it is found in the OT. He thought it was an NT verse and was clueless to the context.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You are so right about ripping that one out of context. I even had an evangelical friend of mine gasp in surprise when I gave him the context of the verse and where it is found in the OT. He thought it was an NT verse and was clueless to the context.

…

 

[Truthstalker]

Our fallenness has consequences. Will you agree that

1. We always need God’s help for every thought, inasmuch as He moves the understanding to act; for actually to understand anything is to think
2. Without God’s grace, man cannot do or wish any good.
3. Without grace, man cannot keep the commandments of the Law.
4. Without grace, man cannot merit eternal life.
   5 Without grace, man cannot prepare himself for grace.
5. Without grace, man cannot rise from sin.
6. Without grace, man cannot avoid sin.
7. Having received grace, man can not do good and avoid sin without any further Divine help.
8. Man cannot of himself persevere in good.

 

[Pug]

1. Without grace, man cannot avoid sin.

Taking this one as an example, I feel clarification would be helpful. I am assuming you mean a currently “unsaved” adult man in number 7. Do you mean:

a man can’t avoid having some sin in his life
a man can’t avoid his every action being an actual sin
a man can’t avoid sinning, if a possible sin presents itself to him
a man can’t avoid some “principle of sin” in general
a man will not have charity in his heart without grace
“man” as in “mankind” can’t escape sin or maybe its effects

 

[Pax]

Our fallenness has consequences. Will you agree that

1. We always need God’s help for every thought, inasmuch as He moves the understanding to act; for actually to understand anything is to think
2. Without God’s grace, man cannot do or wish any good.
3. Without grace, man cannot keep the commandments of the Law.
4. Without grace, man cannot merit eternal life.
   5 Without grace, man cannot prepare himself for grace.
5. Without grace, man cannot rise from sin.
6. Without grace, man cannot avoid sin.
7. Having received grace, man can not do good and avoid sin without any further Divine help.
8. Man cannot of himself persevere in good.

Grace is truly the great enabler. Without grace and the gift of faith no one can please God.

 

[Spirithound]

1. We always need God’s help for every thought, inasmuch as He moves the understanding to act; for actually to understand anything is to think
2. Without God’s grace, man cannot do or wish any good.
3. Without grace, man cannot keep the commandments of the Law.
4. Without grace, man cannot merit eternal life.
   5 Without grace, man cannot prepare himself for grace.
5. Without grace, man cannot rise from sin.
6. Without grace, man cannot avoid sin.
7. Having received grace, man can not do good and avoid sin without any further Divine help.
8. Man cannot of himself persevere in good.

I am rather wary of 2, 3, and 7. They seem so bleak, re: 2, even atheists donate to charities.

 

[Newbie2]

A few weeks ago, a Protestant friend told me his pastor gave a sermon in which he said that there are no “truly” good works done unless done through and with Christ i.e. that one had the glory of God in mind when doing the work. All other works i.e. those done by unbelievers are therefor intrinsically bad.



Makes sense, I guess, if one buys the standard Protestant view of our worthlessness.

 

[Catholicdeacon]

A few weeks ago, a Protestant friend told me his pastor gave a sermon in which he said that there are no “truly” good works done unless done through and with Christ i.e. that one had the glory of God in mind when doing the work. All other works i.e. those done by unbelievers are therefor intrinsically bad.

This is classic Calvinistic thought necessary to “prop up” the whole “justification by faith alone” structure. Prove this is wrong and the whole thing collapses like a deck of cards.

In His love…

CatholicDeacon

 

[m134e5]

I am rather wary of 2, 3, and 7. They seem so bleak, re: 2, even atheists donate to charities.

People may have grace without knowing it. The call to conversion is grace. Baptism gives grace even to babies who are to young to understand anything more than that something wet just fell on their head (but they don’t know what wet is, what their heads are, or what “something” is. Looking back on my own life, I see how God’s grace worked even when I was trying my best to believe He didn’t exist.