New Creature in Mortal Sin

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neil_Anthony
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

Neil_Anthony

Guest
The catechism says that when we are baptized, we become a new creature. The bible says that there is a new man and the old man has passed away.

A once-saved-always-saved baptist Christian told me that it makes no sense for a regenerated child-of-God new-creature to go to hell. Adding in Catholic theology, this person would also have the mark of baptism on his soul. I’m a bit stumped. What happens to the new creature when it commits mortal sin? Does it revert back into the old creature? Can a regenerated new man be in hell?
 
While one may be baptized only once (and it cannot be undone or repeated), one may repent and be forgiven many times.
 
I_Thirst said:
While one may be baptized only once (and it cannot be undone or repeated), one may repent and be forgiven many times.
Click to expand...
So when you commit mortal sin after baptism, and lose sanctifying grace, are you still a new creature?
 
How about if we try to look at it this way, we are all standing on a roof of a large building that is flooding, and the building is getting weak under us. A huge rescue chopper has come and lowered a giant metal basket and tells everybody to get in the center, and strap ourselves in so the waves do not sweep us away. Now all of us who get into this basket and strap ourselves in are now “saved” or “new creatures.” The problem is this building is filled with treasures, drugs, booze, and lots of men and women to fool around with. In fact a lot of people are in this flooding building having a grand ole time, not aware of what is going on.

Now here is your choice, you can either stay in the basket, knowing you are safe, OR you can run down into the building and do whatever fun=sinful thing you want to do. IF you make this choice, you are no longer safe are you? Not because the people in the chopper are being mean and threw you out, but because YOU made the choice to leave the basket. OR to act like a lot of people do, instead of trying to get to the center of the basket and strap ourselves in, you are standing outside the basket, kinda holding on with one hand. (These are the people who are just doing the minimum that they have to do, talking about how they are going to have to spend lots of time in purgatory with a big grin on their faces. These people might make it, but they are always close to slipping off too. If you ask me, the goal is to become a great saint strapped into the middle of the basket, and if I miss that, at least I am still safe.)

Now I know that this analogy is far from perfect, but I think it will make the basic idea for us.

Pax :signofcross:
 
Thanks for the analogy.
One thing that’s missing in the analogy is that the people didn’t become new creatures when they got into the helicopter.
What about the analogy of the worm and the butterfly. The worm becomes a new creature - a butterfly. When it sins, what is it then, a dirty butterfly? or a worm? Do butterflies go into hell?
 
Neil,

The best I can do is to recall a very traditional way of looking at the sacraments – as analogs of natural life, i.e. supernatural counterparts to natural things.

In this view we identify Baptism as our birth into a new life, the start of the supernatural life, just as our own birth (or rather conception!) is the start of our natural life.

Sin chokes, or even kills, that supernatural life. We are cut off from the source of grace, no longer living members of the Body of Christ.

So, I’d say that mortal sin kills the new creature born by Baptism. Contrition revives the creature.

So - – to use your analogy, no living butterflies go to Hell, but dead ones can.

VC
 
Neil_Anthony said:
The catechism says that when we are baptized, we become a new creature. The bible says that there is a new man and the old man has passed away.

A once-saved-always-saved baptist Christian told me that it makes no sense for a regenerated child-of-God new-creature to go to hell. Adding in Catholic theology, this person would also have the mark of baptism on his soul. I’m a bit stumped. What happens to the new creature when it commits mortal sin? Does it revert back into the old creature? Can a regenerated new man be in hell?
Click to expand...
Verbum_Caro said:
Neil,

The best I can do is to recall a very traditional way of looking at the sacraments – as analogs of natural life, i.e. supernatural counterparts to natural things.

Sin chokes, or even kills, that supernatural life. We are cut off from the source of grace, no longer living members of the Body of Christ.

So, I’d say that mortal sin kills the new creature born by Baptism. Contrition revives the creature.

So - – to use your analogy, no living butterflies go to Hell, but dead ones can.
VC
Click to expand...
So best I can do is this…
  1. I think mixing OSAS and Catholic theology is the primary issue here.
OSASers think of the “new creation” verse as a literal, physical, permanent transformation. Like if I were to craft a beautiful vase out of clay. - In that case it is literally and physically a “new creation”

Catholic Theology on the other hand, looks not only at the literal words, but also at the writers “intent” and literary style of the passages preceeding it as well as the historical understanding that early Christians of all of Christianity throughout time.
  1. I think the issue comes from thinking too literal and simplistically about what the bible writers mean by “new creation” - I don’t think it was meant to mean you aren’t even remotely the same person and you aren’t still capable of sin.
  2. Catholic theology DOES teach that Baptism makes one a child of God and therefore leaves a permanent mark on the soul.
Both Catholicism and OSASers believe that God never abandons his children and a person can’t be “snatched” out of God’s hand.

However Catholicism never loses sight of “freewill” and OSASers kinda do. Therefore, Catholicism teaches that one CAN choose to leave God and go back to their old way of life. Full of sin.
  1. Catholicism never loses sight of the fact that we have 2 natures… a physical and a spiritual one. I’m not sure OSASers acknowledge or proclaim the same idea.
Like Verbum Caro tried to say – our beautiful Butterfly soul can wither and be weakened to the point that our carnal nature
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Thanks for the analogy.
One thing that’s missing in the analogy is that the people didn’t become new creatures when they got into the helicopter.
What about the analogy of the worm and the butterfly. The worm becomes a new creature - a butterfly. When it sins, what is it then, a dirty butterfly? or a worm? Do butterflies go into hell?
Click to expand...
Jesus gave an analogy about a banquet that was thrown. Everyone wore clean white clothes for the celebration except for one. He was confronted about wearing his shabby
clothing, and then ejected from the banquet.

Baptism makes us a child of God, beautiful in God’s eyes, so that God can say “this is my beloved son.” Sin does not take away the fact we are still God’s child, but it does
take away our beauty, and as such we are not equipped to enter his home in heaven.
The beauty that is missing is called the life of God in the soul.

We can regain this beauty in His eyes thru the sacrament of His mercy, which restores
God’s life in the soul.

Just a thought.
 
Thanks for all the help! This certainly helps me get it straightened out in my mind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top