New Debate on Dimond Brothers web site

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charlesbarkley

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I just finished listening to a debate the Dimond Brothers had with a Catholic apologist regarding the reception of communion for non catholics(it is on their web site mostholyfamilymonastery.com under e-exchanges). The Catholic apologist argues that Vatican II and the code of canon law(1983 code) state that the eastern orthodox ChristiAN must make at least a confession of faith before he can recieve the Eucharist. He argues, in the debate, that is why Vatican II and the code of Canon law say the person must be “properly disposed.” If any of you get a chance to listen to it I’d be interested in your feedback about the debate , and the issue. Does the Church teach it is okay for the Orthodox, who has no beleif in the Papacy etc., can recieve communion lawfully if they ask for it?
 
No takers on this??? I believe this is a very important issue.
 
Here are the texts in question:
Orientalium Ecclesiarum #27
27. Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.(33)

The catholic apologist argues that the term “have the right dispositions,” means they must show faith in the Catholic church.
The Dimond Brothers are saying that it doesnt mean that.
Canon Law also says “provided they have the right dispositions.”

“Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned” (CIC 844 § 3).

I cant see how the Church could give communion to an Eastern Orthodox Christian if he shows no indication at all that the Catholic Church is the One True Church.
I mean if the Eastern Orthodox Christian is on his death bed and says to a Catholic priest, “I have no belief in the Papacy, or the Assumption, but I cant find an Orthodox priest to come here, so please give me the sacraments.” Is that “properly disposed?” I cant see how it ever could be. I also cant beleive that canon law means that. What say you?
 
CB, this is a Roman Catholic forum. Why are you suprised no one will waste time on the opinions of those folks ?

No one here really cares what goes on with the Dimond Brothers. They will never accept we have a pope unless one of their own is elected :rolleyes:
 
I_Believe said:
CB, this is a Roman Catholic forum. Why are you suprised no one will waste time on the opinions of those folks ?

No one here really cares what goes on with the Dimond Brothers. They will never accept we have a pope unless one of their own is elected :rolleyes:
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Well if you read my post carefuly you will see I also asked people(here on this forum) TO COMMENT ON THE issue ABOUT THE Church teaching, regarding reception of communion of non-catholics. I have quoted the appropritate texts (from Church councils and canon law) in dispute. Pay closer attention!!
 
charlesbarkley said:
Well if you read my post carefuly you will see I also asked people(here on this forum) TO COMMENT ON THE issue ABOUT THE Church teaching, regarding reception of communion of non-catholics. I have quoted the appropritate texts (from Church councils and canon law) in dispute. Pay closer attention!!
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A-hem.

I_Believe gave a very courteous response. Why get snarky with him?
My guess is he read your post carefully - as did I.
If you want people to pay attention, perhaps re-phrase and leave the Dimond brothers out of it.
 
catharina said:
A-hem.

I_Believe gave a very courteous response. Why get snarky with him?
My guess is he read your post carefully - as did I.
If you want people to pay attention, perhaps re-phrase and leave the Dimond brothers out of it.
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Just discuss what I stated please. Your prejudice against the Dimond Brothers is irrelevant. see my earlier posts as to my questions that I want answered.
 
charlesbarkley said:
Just discuss what I stated please. Your prejudice against the Dimond Brothers is irrelevant. see my earlier posts as to my questions that I want answered.
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I_Believe gave some good advice to you.
I gave some good advice to you.

You believe you can give an ORDER to me? Dream on.
 
catharina said:
I_Believe gave some good advice to you.
I gave some good advice to you.

You believe you can give an ORDER to me? Dream on.
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I didnt give an order to you. I merely asked that you adress what I already asked.
 
You could try posting this on the Ask An Apologist section to get a good response.

I think in this case the Church would err on the side of generosity. Does the Orthodox person who wants to receive Communion have an adequate understanding and belief in what Communion really is? Perhaps one way to look at “properly disposed” is more toward the person’s views on the Eucharist and Confession rather than the papacy.
 
A similar question was previously asked on the Ask An Apologist section. Michelle Arnold wrote:

The USCCB’s Guidelines for the Reception of Communion state:
Members of the Orthodox churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these churches (canon 844 § 3).
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Basically, this means that the Catholic Church does not object to reception of Catholic Communion by Eastern Orthodox Christians, but urges those Christians to respect their own church’s sacramental discipline. To the best of my knowledge, Orthodox churches ordinarily strongly object to their members receiving Communion in a Catholic church. For example:
Q: As a Greek Orthodox may I receive the sacrament of Holy Communion in a Catholic Church? Do you know the rules regarding Greek Orthodox and Catholic relations? I live in an area where the closest church is a Roman Catholic Church. Does the Catholic Church recognize us as equals?

A. Orthodox Christians are not permitted to receive Communion in non-Orthodox communities, including the Roman Catholic. To do so would imply a unity that in fact does not yet exist. Also it implies that we are “united” to the faith community from which we receive the Eucharist.

In brief, while Roman Catholicism sees Orthodoxy as a “sister church,” Orthodoxy sees herself as the fullness of the Church, not the “other half” of the Church, as implied in the notion of a “sister church” (source).
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In short, if your friend considers herself an Eastern Orthodox Christian, she should respect the sacramental discipline of her own church. If she wishes to receive Communion in a Catholic church, she should seriously consider entering the Catholic Church, perhaps through one of its Eastern Catholic churches.

(endquote)

I don’t think that there is a requirement for an Eastern Orthodox Christian to make a confession of faith before receiving Holy Communion lawfully in a Roman Catholic church.
 
MikeDunphy said:
A similar question was previously asked on the Ask An Apologist section. Michelle Arnold wrote:

The USCCB’s Guidelines for the Reception of Communion state:
Basically, this means that the Catholic Church does not object to reception of Catholic Communion by Eastern Orthodox Christians, but urges those Christians to respect their own church’s sacramental discipline. To the best of my knowledge, Orthodox churches ordinarily strongly object to their members receiving Communion in a Catholic church. For example:

In short, if your friend considers herself an Eastern Orthodox Christian, she should respect the sacramental discipline of her own church. If she wishes to receive Communion in a Catholic church, she should seriously consider entering the Catholic Church, perhaps through one of its Eastern Catholic churches.

(endquote)

I don’t think that there is a requirement for an Eastern Orthodox Christian to make a confession of faith before receiving Holy Communion lawfully in a Roman Catholic church.
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Again I ask a question: If an Eastern Orthodox person calls for a Catholic priest, and gives no indication at all, in fact denies, Catholic church teaching, would the Church or any of you all consider that “properly disposed.???” I assert, as did the debator debating the Dimonds, there at least must be some indication of faith in the Catholic church.
 
charlesbarkley said:
Again I ask a question: If an Eastern Orthodox person calls for a Catholic priest, and gives no indication at all, in fact denies, Catholic church teaching, would the Church or any of you all consider that “properly disposed.???” I assert, as did the debator debating the Dimonds, there at least must be some indication of faith in the Catholic church.
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Mike Dunphys’s post gave a very good answer in my opinion. None of us on this forum are qualified to give you the correct answer. We could give you an opinion but what good would that do? When dealing with sedevacantists opinions are worthless. Find out exactly what the Church teaches so you can put the issue to rest.
The best thing to do woud be to contact Father Serpa here on this website for the correct Church response.
I would like to say that I have spoken to Michael Dimond on the phone about some of the material that he puts out. I have to tell you that this guy is disturbed. I have some of their material and it is so taken out of context that it is scandalous.
He told me that going to the New Mass was a mortal sin and that the host is nothing but bread. He gave me the name of a local sedevacantist priest and told me to go to his church so that I can be saved.
But what really made him go crazy is when I asked him why he sells 9-11 conspiracy tapes on his website. He believes that our goverment was behind 9-11, there were no terriorists, the planes that flew into the towers were empty. They were flown by remote control and the buildings were brought down by bombs that had been planted by the CIA. He started yelling like a madman when I challenged him and then he hung up.
I am absolutely convinced the he and his brother Peter are instruments of the devil. They are convincing Catholics to stay away from the Mass and the Church. They may well be possessed.
 
OK, Charles Barkley, I think you are being unfairly difficult here, for motives that are unclear to me at least.

If Michelle’s statement is true, then the answer is YES. But the Orthodox person would have to then deal with the ramifications that his Church might not allow it.

And like it or not, maybe it’s best not to listen to Dimond.
 
PKinsale said:
OK, Charles Barkley, I think you are being unfairly difficult here, for motives that are unclear to me at least.

If Michelle’s statement is true, then the answer is YES. But the Orthodox person would have to then deal with the ramifications that his Church might not allow it.

And like it or not, maybe it’s best not to listen to Dimond.
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Well it seems to me that it would be impossible for someone to recieve communion who blatantly rejects Church teaching. I think the very fact that the Eastern Orthodox person would approach a Catholic priest, and not his own, would indicate at least some belief in the Catholic faith.
If the the Orthodox Christian cant get to an Orthodox church and approaches a Catholic priest and says, “I dont believe at all in the Catholic faith, but I want communion because I cant find an Orthodox priest.” I dont see how that can be “properly disposed.”
 
I think you need to realize there are shades of gray here, Charles. No Orthodox would say he does not believe at all in the Catholic faith. If that were the case, Communion would be idolatry to him.
 
charlesbarkley said:
Well it seems to me that it would be impossible for someone to recieve communion who blatantly rejects Church teaching. I think the very fact that the Eastern Orthodox person would approach a Catholic priest, and not his own, would indicate at least some belief in the Catholic faith.
If the the Orthodox Christian cant get to an Orthodox church and approaches a Catholic priest and says, “I dont believe at all in the Catholic faith, but I want communion because I cant find an Orthodox priest.” I dont see how that can be “properly disposed.”
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If this were the case then such a person would not be considered properly disposed. The Church, in granting this concession, is presupposing a person who holds the same belief in the sacraments that the Church holds – not in the Church herself.

I will not say it is “impossible” for an Orthodox Christian to receive communion from the Catholic Church since I see it happen every Sunday in my Melkite parish! About 10% of the people in that parish are actually Orthodox. Because Eastern Catholics are “Orthodox in communion with Rome” the belief in the mysteries/sacraments is the same there is no problem. Melkites are Catholics from the Middle East and, in general, come form an area where there is either an Orthodox or a Catholic church in town and everybody goes to what’s there. Intercommunion is much more common in the Middle East than it is here.

Deacon Ed
 
PKinsale said:
I think you need to realize there are shades of gray here, Charles. No Orthodox would say he does not believe at all in the Catholic faith. If that were the case, Communion would be idolatry to him.
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Obviously I meant the Orthodox Christian didnt believe in those theological areas that seperate us. If the Orthodox Christian (one that is seperated from Rome) came to a Catholic priest and said he has no belief in the Papacy, but cannot find an Orthodox priest, I cannot see how he could be given communion. That is not “properly disposed.”
 
Well canon law does seem to permit reception by Orthodox who are faithful to their beliefs, so it appears you may be wrong.

I recommend you read the relevant section.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM

What is important to understand is that some other churches do have a proper understanding of the sacrament, even though they are not in full communion. That appears to be the emphasis here.

Perhaps you should find a priest or canon lawyer you can trust since this is so important to you?
 
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