New evidence linking Native Americans

[Marie5890]

exactly. Been saying that for years

It’s the 21st Century…

Institutions needs a back bone…A CREDIBLE backbone…

Step up to the plate, LDS INC., or move on…

Crediblity MATTERS …face it…or leave…

 

[TexanKnight]

What I find hysterical is that sooo many LDS "prophets were ADAMANT that the hill Cumorah in NY is THE hill where those battles occurred.

Until it was clear that the evidence would not support it.

Then it was a lot of “well, that is THE hill…those other adamant prophets were just guessing”.

Hysterical

 

[Marie5890]

Mormonism has shown its incredible weakness of where it lacks in credibility…

 

[Adamski]

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

What are your thoughts on this “new” discovery? Does it change your opinion on anything? Also, what questions does it leave open still?

I didn’t need this to tell me that, it is obvious when you look at the low number of northeast natives that died from European diseases such as the Iroquois and the high number that did in the west such as the inca.

I grew up near palmyra New York and I have studied lds there is zero evidence of a Bronze Age civilization in North America such as the Book of Mormon says.

 

[Porknpie]

I don’t think it calls into question anything I’ve said. DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was about the source of the American Indian and that source was the near east, 4000 years ago.
Scientist know that man started in Africa and migrated east, so at some point in time they traveled through western Asia on their way to North America. The question isn’t if there is European DNA in a group’s genome, but when did it get there. This article claims a migration, 24,000 years ago, came from Siberia and about a third of the genome of this group came from western Asia. This does not show that the American Indians came from the near east 4000 years ago, and are Jews, like Joseph Smith claimed.
There is also a link between the language of Siberia and North American Indians but no link has been made between reformed Egyptian and any other language.

So is the LDS Church going to now say that Joseph Smith was wrong about when the American Indians came from the near East? Meaning that they will claim it was not 4,000 years ago, rather 24,000 years ago? All it takes now is God speaking to the LDS President that Joseph Smith was off by 20,000 years and it will become the Truth. This new evidence reinforces what we already know, that the peoples - North American Indians - were here 20,000 years before Joseph Smith claims his migration occured. Mormons would do well to listen to science.

Both can not be true:

A - SCIENCE) Migration to North America occured 24,000 years ago … settled by peoples from either Asian or Europe… the people becoming the North American Indians

B - JOSEPH SMITH) Migration to North America occured 4,000 years ago…Jewish people from the MIddle East…the people becoming the North American Indians

One must have faith AND reason. One can not reason that Joseph Smith was telling the truth when science says otherwise…by 20,000 years.

PnP

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I see that I have to repeat:

Well, looking this up, I’d first like to bring to everyone’s
attention a rather humble comment (of somebody else):

As a believing Mormon, active in his faith, let me state clearly:
THIS HAS **NOTHING **TO DO WITH THE BOOK OF MORMON.
THE MIGRATION BEING DESCRIBED HERE IS TOO EARLY.
DEAR MORMONS AND NON–MORMONS TAKE YOUR BOOK
OF MORMON HISTORICITY DEBATE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.
​

​

I underline “THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE” in relevance to Mormon talk.​

 

[Marie5890]

Credibility…

It all comes down to CREDIBILITY…

Does JSmith have CREDIBILITY
??

Does LDS., INC.?

God has never asked us to be stupid or to never use our ability to reason. Never.
Does the LDS God (and JSmith) have CREDIBILITY?

 

[jimmy]

This is really nothing new. I have heard theories about multiple migrations to America throughout the last 15000 years. They included Western Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, and etc. genetic tests have been done before that show a genetic overlap between Western Europeans and native Americans.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Credibility…
It all comes down to CREDIBILITY…
Does JSmith have CREDIBILITY
??
Does LDS., INC.?
God has never asked us to be stupid or to never use our ability to reason. Never.
Does the LDS God (and JSmith) have CREDIBILITY?

Well Smith was a convicted glass-looker philandering occult scam artist, so not at all!
I’m not making that up, we have a court document,
words of Cowdery, and of Emma Smith’s father, to
name a few sources confirming these facts.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I could go on, but will any of you admit that you were wrong in stating completely, conclusively that DNA evidence proved Joseph wrong? You may now provide your apologies…

The DNA shows mixture 24,000 years ago in Siberia, it shows that Joseph was wrong.

 

[NeuroTypical]

The DNA shows mixture 24,000 years ago in Siberia, it shows that Joseph was wrong.

A - SCIENCE) Migration to North America occured 24,000 years ago … settled by peoples from either Asian or Europe… the people becoming the North American Indians

Zaffiroborant and Porknpie, would either of you care to comment on the multiple scientific articles from non-LDS folks I quoted, that clearly illustrate that science isn’t quite as concluded on the matter as you keep claiming?

It seems like your only response is something like this: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

But, James Guthrie found the A*1 antigen was found both in Palestine and in South American indian populations living in the Andes!

Response: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

But, M.D Brown, P. Forster, R. Hardin, A. Torroni, H.J Bandelt, R.L Parr, S.W. Carlyle, and D.H. O’Rourke all discovered DNA Haplogroup X/N, in both Middle East populations and among the Fremont Indians!

Response: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

But, L.G. Carvajal-Carmona found a possible precolumbian Sephardic Contribution among the Founders of a Population in Northwest Colombia!

Response: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

No really - DNA science can’t be crowbarred into saying what you want it to. Judas Thaddeus’ copied comment is spot on here.

Are you sure you shouldn’t adopt Texan’s tactic of just claiming victory and changing the subject? Marie5890 seems to have adopted it…

 

[Brandon_Cal]

No really - DNA science can’t be crowbarred into saying what you want it to. Judas Thaddeus’ copied comment is spot on here.

Are you sure you shouldn’t adopt Texan’s tactic of just claiming victory and changing the subject? Marie5890 seems to have adopted it…

I’m willing to engage you in the discussion about DNA, but before I waste my time I’d like to know if you’ve actually read any of your own citations? I suspect you’re just pasting what you’ve found on an apologist’s website and are taking their summaries as an article of faith

As a university professor I have access to every one of those journals (except for Pre-Columbiana) and I have every single one of those papers loaded on my screen as I type this. I’m willing to read them and offer you my own commentary as long as I can have your word that I’m not being sent on a wild goose chase. To be certain, it is your position that these papers demonstrate a pre-Columbian source for non-Asiatic genetic markers (especially Semitic and/or Caucasoid) in contemporary Amerindians that do not pre-date the Book of Mormon chronology. Is this correct?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant and Porknpie, would either of you care to comment on the multiple scientific articles from non-LDS folks I quoted, that clearly illustrate that science isn’t quite as concluded on the matter as you keep claiming?

It seems like your only response is something like this: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

But, James Guthrie found the A*1 antigen was found both in Palestine and in South American indian populations living in the Andes!

Response: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

But, M.D Brown, P. Forster, R. Hardin, A. Torroni, H.J Bandelt, R.L Parr, S.W. Carlyle, and D.H. O’Rourke all discovered DNA Haplogroup X/N, in both Middle East populations and among the Fremont Indians!

Response: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

But, L.G. Carvajal-Carmona found a possible precolumbian Sephardic Contribution among the Founders of a Population in Northwest Colombia!

Response: “Native Americans come from Siberia - one migration 24,000 years ago. Joseph was wrong”.

No really - DNA science can’t be crowbarred into saying what you want it to. Judas Thaddeus’ copied comment is spot on here.

Are you sure you shouldn’t adopt Texan’s tactic of just claiming victory and changing the subject? Marie5890 seems to have adopted it…

You didn’t provide links for any of the quotes, I’m not going to comment on out of context quotes. The OP asked specifically about the National Geographic article and provided a link so we could read the whole thing. If you want comment on what you posted provide links for the whole piece.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I’m in the process of reading the abstracts and conclusions to all the papers NeuroTypical has cited. I’ve also provided the DOI addresses should anyone else have access to academic online databases and would like to read the papers themselves. I’ve quoted, bolded, and put in red font relevant passages from said sources. I’ll be posting these one by one due to post size constraints. I’ve read all but the last three, for which hopefully I’ll find some time this evening.

It’s important to note so far that not a single one of these citations support a pre-Columbian Semitic migration to the Americas that can appropriately correspond to Book of Mormon chronology. Every single one of these papers explicitly state that the relevant genetic markers arose in Amerindian populations either thousands of years before the Jaredites are alleged to have arrived, or due to post-Columbian admixture with Europeans.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

* Virginia Morrell, “Genes May Link Ancient Eurasians, Native Americans,” Science, 280:520 [April 24, 1998 and April 11, 2004]
(Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found genetic links between Native Americans and Middle Easterners.)

DOI: 10.1126/science.280.5363.520
Virginia Morrell:

Anthropologists have long assumed that the first Americans, who crossed into North America by way of the Bering Strait, were originally of Asian stock. But recently they have been puzzled by surprising features on a handful of ancient American skeletons, including the controversial one known as Kennewick Man—features that resemble those of Europeans rather than Asians (Science, 10 April, p. 190). Now a new genetic study may link Native Americans and people of Europe and the Middle East, offering tantalizing support to a controversial theory that a band of people who originally lived in Europe or Asia Minor were among the continent’s first settlers.

The new data, from a genetic marker appropriately called Lineage X, suggest a “definite—if ancient—link between Eurasians and Native Americans,” says Theodore Schurr, a molecular anthropologist from Emory University in Atlanta, who presented the findings earlier this month at the annual meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists in Salt Lake City.

Researchers studying unusual “Caucasoid-like” physical features in early American skeletons were immediately excited by the results. “It’s an intriguing study,” says Richard Jantz, a biological anthropologist at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. Because European peoples presumably must have passed through Asia to reach North America, “it suggests that there might have been a distribution of people 10,000 or more years ago throughout Asia who looked more European than [Asians] do now.” But “it’s far too early and far more data are needed” before researchers can be sure of such history, cautions evolutionary geneticist Emoke Szathmary, who is president of the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg.

Let’s keep in mind that this article was published in 1998. More recent research has found mt-X in Siberian populations.

Derenko MV, et al. (2001). The presence of mitochondrial haplogroup x in Altaians from South Siberia. American Journal of Human Genetics 69 (1): 237–241.

DOI: dx.doi.org/10.1086/321266

Reidla M, et al. (2003). Origin and diffusion of mtDNA haplogroup X. American Journal of Human Genetics. 73 (5): 1178–1190.

DOI: dx.doi.org/10.1086/379380

Summary: mt-X most likely arose in some Amerindian populations due to Caucasian migration from central Asia thousands of years before the Book of Mormon peoples are alleged to have existed.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

* Carvajal-Carmona, L.G., et.al.“Strong Amerind/White Sex Bias and a Possible Sephardic Contribution among the Founders of a Population in Northwest Colombia,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 67 [5]
1287-1295 [Nov.2000]. (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found the presence of several indicators of Jewish ancestry among Antiquian populations of Colombia.)

DOI: dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9297(07)62956-5
Carvajal-Carmona:

Historical and genetic evidences suggest that the recently founded population of Antioquia (Colombia) is potentially useful for the genetic mapping of complex traits. This population was established in the 16th–17th centuries through the admixture of Amerinds, Europeans, and Africans and grew in relative isolation until the late 19th century.

To examine the origin of the founders of Antioquia, we typed 11 markers on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome and four markers on mtDNA in a sample of individuals with confirmed Antioquian ancestry. **The polymorphisms on the Y chromosome (five biallelic markers and six microsatellites) allow an approximation to the origin of founder men, and those on mtDNA identify the four major founder Native American lineages. These data indicate that ∼94% of the Y chromosomes are European, 5% are African, and 1% are Amerind.

Y-chromosome data are consistent with an origin of founders predominantly in southern Spain but also suggest that a fraction came from northern Iberia and that some possibly had a Sephardic origin**. In stark contrast with the Y-chromosome, ∼90% of the mtDNA gene pool of Antioquia is Amerind, with the frequency of the four Amerind founder lineages being closest to Native Americans currently living in the area. These results indicate a highly asymmetric pattern of mating in early Antioquia, involving mostly immigrant men and local native women. The discordance of our data with blood-group estimates of admixture suggests that the number of founder men was larger than that of women.

Summary: This one small sub-population in Columbia, that we know from history arose due to Spanish conquest most likely owes the vast majority of its Y-chromosome SNPs to Spanish admixture rather than African or indigenous genetic patrimony.

 

[NeuroTypical]

I’m willing to engage you in the discussion about DNA, but before I waste my time I’d like to know if you’ve actually read any of your own citations? I suspect you’re just pasting what you’ve found on an apologist’s website and are taking their summaries as an article of faith

Hi Brandon Cal, this is a fair question. I have no particular training in this area, most of my information about the subject comes from criticisms against my faith and apologetic responses. I have only the most basic understanding of DNA, how MTDNA differs from Y, what an allele or a haplogroup is, etc. I have read some articles outside of the mormon debate about what DNA can show us and what it can’t. I’m aware of the story of the Lemba tribe. I know what my haplo type is (or at least, I can find the email from the DNA testing service that told me), and at one time I had a population density map hanging on my wall at work. It’s interesting to work backwards in my white Anglo ancestry and end up in England, but see the center of my group based in the middle east.

To be certain, it is your position that these papers demonstrate a pre-Columbian source for non-Asiatic genetic markers (especially Semitic and/or Caucasoid) in contemporary Amerindians that do not pre-date the Book of Mormon chronology. Is this correct?

No. My position, is statements like “DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied”, or “the DNA evidence completely contradicts the Mormon position”, or “DNA has proven joe smith wrong”, are incorrect statements. I am making no claims that DNA science supports the truth claims of the BoM. I am expressly claiming that DNA science, as it stands today, pretty much has zero impact in the mormon debate whatsoever.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

* M.F. Hammer, et.al., “Jewish and Middle Eastern Non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-Chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, 97[12]:6769- 74 [June 6, 2000]
. and T.M. Karafet, et.al., “Ancestral Asian Source(s) of New World Y-Chromosome Founder Haplotypes,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 64[3]:817-831 [March 1999]. (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found Haplogroup 1c and 4 among Jews and among the Cheyenne and Zapotec tribe of America.)

(M. F. Hammer, et al) DOI: 10.1073/pnas.100115997
(T. M. Karafet, et al) DOI: dx.doi.org/10.1086/302282
M.F. Hammer:

The present research was aimed at comparing the composition of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes of Jewish communities with patterns of variation in non-Jews from Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. The Jewish communities surveyed here contained a number of Y-chromosome haplotypes that were shared with non-Jewish populations from a wide geographic region. The Med haplotype, the most frequent haplotype in Jewish communities, was also common in circum-Mediterranean populations. Its widespread distribution and relatively recent age suggest high rates of male gene flow around the Mediterranean and into Europe, possibly via the Neolithic demic diffusion of farmers (43) and/or more recent migrations of sea-going peoples such as the Phoenicians (44).

The second most frequent Jewish haplotype, YAP+ haplotype 4, was common in Middle Eastern and southern European populations and reached its highest frequency in North Africa. The discovery of its precursor (YAP+ haplotype 4L) in seven Ethiopian males supports the hypothesis that the YAP+ haplotype 4S originated on a YAP+ 4L chromosome in Ethiopia (≈20,000 years ago), where it likely increased in frequency before spreading down the Nile River toward Egypt and the Levant (32). This hypothesis is consistent with mtDNA evidence indicating south-to-north gene flow down the Nile (45).

The presence of three haplotypes at very low frequencies (0.3–1.5%) in Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations (1A, 3A, and YAP+ 5) may be explained by low levels of gene flow from sub-Saharan African populations. This conclusion is consistent with the observed presence of low frequencies of African mtDNA haplotypes in Jewish populations (16). Two haplotypes (1U and 1C) that are common in Asian populations (33) were present at low frequencies in Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations (Table 1). Continued surveys of West and Central Asian populations are needed to test the hypothesis of gene flow between Asian and Middle Eastern populations.

I looked up Table 1 from that paper: A combined total of 15 Jewish individuals in that study exhibited either Y-1U or Y-1C from a total sample of 336 Jews! Y-1C is typically not considered indicative of Jewish ancestry, rather North Asian. Indeed the next paper you cited says as much:
T.M. Karafet:

Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the origins of Native Americans. Our sample consisted of 2,198 males from 60 global populations, including 19 Native American and 15 indigenous North Asian groups. A set of 12 biallelic polymorphisms gave rise to 14 unique Y-chromosome haplotypes that were unevenly distributed among the populations.

Combining multiallelic variation at two Y-linked microsatellites (DYS19 and DXYS156Y) with the unique haplotypes results in a total of 95 combination haplotypes. Contra previous findings based on Y- chromosome data, our new results suggest the possibility of more than one Native American paternal founder haplotype. We postulate that, of the nine unique haplotypes found in Native Americans, haplotypes 1C and 1F are the best candidates for major New World founder haplotypes, whereas haplotypes 1B, 1I, and 1U may either be founder haplotypes and/or have arrived in the New World via recent admixture.

Two of the other four haplotypes (YAP+ haplotypes 4 and 5) are probably present because of post-Columbian admixture, whereas haplotype 1G may have originated in the New World, and the Old World source of the final New World haplotype (1D) remains unresolved. The contrasting distribution patterns of the two major candidate founder haplotypes in Asia and the New World, as well as the results of a nested cladistic analysis, suggest the possibility of more than one paternal migration from the general region of Lake Baikal to the Americas.

Summary: These two papers have absolutely nothing to do with one another, and the “highlights” you posted are factually incorrect from even a cursory reading of them. Y-1C is most prominently found among East Asian and Amerindian populations and is nearly absent among Jews. Y-4 is found prominently among African and Middle Eastern Jews and is only found among certain Amerindians due to admixture.

 

[iepuras]

I’m in the process of reading the abstracts and conclusions to all the papers NeuroTypical has cited. I’ve also provided the DOI addresses should anyone else have access to academic online databases and would like to read the papers themselves. I’ve quoted, bolded, and put in red font relevant passages from said sources. I’ll be posting these one by one due to post size constraints. I’ve read all but the last three, for which hopefully I’ll find some time this evening.

It’s important to note so far that not a single one of these citations support a pre-Columbian Semitic migration to the Americas that can appropriately correspond to Book of Mormon chronology. Every single one of these papers explicitly state that the relevant genetic markers arose in Amerindian populations either thousands of years before the Jaredites are alleged to have arrived, or due to post-Columbian admixture with Europeans.

Thank you, Brandon_Cal. You pretty much rock.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

No. My position, is statements like “DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied”, or “the DNA evidence completely contradicts the Mormon position”, or “DNA has proven joe smith wrong”, are incorrect statements. I am making no claims that DNA science supports the truth claims of the BoM. I am expressly claiming that DNA science, as it stands today, pretty much has zero impact in the mormon debate whatsoever.

Thank you for the response. I was replying while you posted this with the assumption that you understood these papers to support the Book of Mormon narrative. Your position here is a sensible one, though I’d highly recommend reading my responses nonetheless as I believe they show those apologetic sources on which you’ve relied to have been acting in bad faith.

EDIT:

On second thought, I don’t think your last sentence here is sensible. If the Book of Mormon is true history and speaks of a real people with real Semitic ancestry then we should expect the molecular data to show this, and to show this in the appropriate temporal context. Statements like “DNA proves that Joseph Smith was wrong” are false only so far as it’s false to say science “proves” anything. Leaving this epistemological nit-pick aside, the near total absence of any molecular evidence indicating a trans-Atlantic migration of Semitic peoples to the Americas between roughly 3000 BCE and 400 BCE is very damning evidence against the Book of Mormon.