New Forum Member Alaris: LDS & Topic of Interest

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Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

So you would have me rebuke you for your wrong beliefs then?

Matthew 7:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I’ll choose the Savior’s way rather than yours, thank you. If you’d like to argue with LDS, might I suggest you search for LDS forums and go create an account and start rebuking them for their beliefs. I am here to build upon common ground - if that’s outside the scope of these forums then I thank you for you time! 🙂
 
Did Jesus not rebuke Peter, among others? No one hates you here. No one is cursing you. We just are not on the same page whatsoever as regards the Book of Mormon, which we do not and will never accept. Remember too that Mormons teaches that our Church is an abomination. Joseph Smith’s words, not mine.
 
Various Fathers looked at the Angel of the LORD differently.

Some thought he was an Archangel - perhaps Michael.

Some that he was the pre-incarnate Christ.
 
Yes! If you google / youtube “Angel of the LORD” there are a lot of articles / blogs and videos on how many believe the Angel of the LORD to be Jesus Christ. The main problem, at least from an LDS perspective, is the Angel of the LORD announced Jesus’ birth. Perhaps that fits within the doctrine of Catholicism. I’m certainly not closed to the idea of someone being in two places at once. However, I believe the revelation as to who the Angel of the LORD is and who his relationship to Jesus Christ is will be a critical aspect to the end times. Here is an interesting teaching from Paul:

Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The fall festivals are as of yet unfulfilled - and Yom Kippur is the holiest of the festivals. Paul states clearly that the High Priest’s approach to the mercy seat signifies the Holy Ghost.
 
I probably type LDS more often than you all - and accidentally type LSD quite often 🙂
 
Hello Alaris,

I’m not sure what topic you want to discuss. The only higher ranking angel I know about is Michael.
I was active LDS for about a year, then eventually I joined the temple lot group.

Welcome to the board.
 
Alaris, thanks for posting here…

I’ve read some of your book of Mormon. I always thought that as a fictional story, it’s beautiful. I just didn’t believe it was true. I’m catholic.

You know, many in the community of Christ (formerly RLDS) might argue that the book of Mormon was never meant to be taken as truth. It was a “story” written to help convert native Americans based on their legends. I’m just saying…you want to come come challenge our faith…try to rethink your own.
 
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Thanks huck. I’m not sure the stance on the archangels in Catholicism. Someone mentioned the Book of Tobit earlier. Officially, only Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are named in LDS doctrine, though we do believe Michael is the chief prince - or chief Archangel. Personally, I believe firmly the archangels are the seven dispensation heads - and these dispensation heads align - in inverse order - to the seven promises of overcoming given in the book of Revelation. This number 7 is all throughout the Book of Revelation, and indeed there are seven spirits of God singled out in the book. Why inverse order? The dispensations in reverse are a ladder or a road map back to God. Why did Jesus Christ come at the end of the time of the Jews and before their scattering? Peter’s dispensation was that of spreading the gospel to the world, and look how many people believe in Jesus Christ and His sermon regardless of their interpretation of the trinity. He is the gate to enter to path back to Godhood.

1 Enoch (Ethiopian) is another apocryphal work where Enoch meets each of the seven Archangels who are all named and their dominion is spelled out. I believe the Angel of the LORD is the eighth Angel and is unnamed - his name purposefully hidden from the foundation of this world. I’ve written several articles on it. If interested, I would recommend starting at the seven levels of mankind that matches the seven promises of overcoming given to the seven churches of Asia to the levels of mankind:

link didn’t work. lordoftheseraphim dot blogspot dot com is the url

We’ll see if that link works now that I’ve leveled up here (har har.) Again, I have to stress this is NOT official LDS doctrine. I have written several articles on the Angel of the LORD as well. In short, I believe firmly another God is coming in the flesh and few will recognize him just as few recognized Jesus Christ.
 
I expressly did not come to challenge your faith. If you look at my OP, my intent is to start a discussion on the Angel of the LORD and express my beliefs and receive your owns - particularly looking for those forum members of yours who concluded the Angel of the LORD is the Holy Ghost.
 
On a broader level, what does it mean to you that the Angel of the Lord is the Holy Ghost. Does it have any impact on anybody’s daily life…in your opinion.

I agree with previous posters angels and the holy spirit are not the same thing.

…and on some levels I get some aspects of the Mormons…I mean the survival aspects of the movement. It is the late 1840’s in the US. Your leaders are “correctly” warning about an apocalypse…1861 is not that far away. You hightail it out of Missouri. It was no sin to leave a questionable war that cost 1 million casualties…~700,000 deaths (including civilians).
 
As Jack stated, in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy I expect) the Holy Spirit is part of the Triune God, therefor can not be an angel.
Also it should be pointed out that, unlike in Mormonism where angels are seen as disembodied humans, in Catholicism they are their own unique species and are not human in any sense. And never will be, either.

The two faith traditions are so radically different, not sure where the end result would be of this thread.
 
AngelaMarie said:
Also it should be pointed out that, unlike in Mormonism where angels are seen as disembodied humans, in Catholicism they are their own unique species and are not human in any sense. And never will be, either.
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I came here to point this out as well as it’s critical to understanding where the OP is coming from. The metaphysics behind our very being according to Mormonism is diametrically opposed to that of Christianity. It’s important that this is mentioned and at the very least recognized for the conversation to continue otherwise we all run the risk of misunderstanding each other due to incorrectly believing that we’re all coming to the table with the same metaphysical assumptions.

Not only does Mormonism not make an ontological distinction between angels and humans, but neither does it make an ontological distinction between humans and deity. There is no difference in being between humans, angels, and gods, only a difference in degree. This is precisely why Mormonism teaches that angels are either humans yet to be born, or humans who have already lived and died. It’s also why Mormonism teaches that humans, after resurrection and exaltation can become literal gods just as God the Son and God the Father have.
 
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Only 3 Angels are named. They are the archangels Michael , Raphael, Gabriel.

There are 9 choirs of Angels , so lots of Angels. They are God’s creatures just as much as we are.

The Holy Spirit is God the Paraclete.

I have no idea of LDS beliefs. So no idea what you guys believe or don’t. But these are pretty clear Biblically.

St Michael is the Prince of Angels, and fought the devil who was a rebellious Angel.

Gabriel is God’s messenger Angel to Our Lady Mary and to St Joseph, her spouse.
Raphael is known for healing.

Catholics believe in the Trinity, St Patrick of Island described the Trinity as like a Shamrock. One stem, three leaves. The one stem is God. The three leaves are God the Father, God the Son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit the Paraclete. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
 
Catholics also do not take Sacred Scripture alone. We have Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The Old Testament is God preparing us for the Incarnation of the Word, Jesus.

Jesus taught and explained when He was on Earth. Jesus was on earth with a perfect human nature and a perfect divine nature.

When we read the Bible, we take each passage into consideration with the passages beside it, the chapter it is in, the book it is in. And of course the Bible itself. How is God revealing His love to us, his creatures, in this passage, and chapter.
 
Don’t google Angel of the Lord. You are likely to get writing with a lot of error and heresy.

Also , the devil and demons were angels who rebelled. The devil can be an angel of light to deceive us.

Have you read Catholic Catechism on the Angel of the Lord?
 
alaris said:
Officially, only Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are named in LDS doctrine, though we do believe Michael is the chief prince - or chief Archangel.
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Catholics know this to be true too.

We also each have a Guardian Angel
 
This is a great point, thanks AlbertDerGrosse, and thanks everyone for chiming in with their beliefs. Again, I’m not here to attack anyone’s beliefs and am certainly happy to answer any relevant questions. To that end, the distinction between LDS & Catholic belief regarding the Holy Ghost is important. Here is an interesting quote from Joseph Smith few LDS are aware of.

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

We LDS do believe that as God is man may become, yet some LDS still struggle with the inverse - as man is God once was. I realize this stands in stark contrast to Catholic belief and am not here to attack your beliefs but to clarify differences as AlbertDerGrosse suggested.

Why am I here then? Few LDS have even wondered on the identity of the Angel of the LORD - given our beliefs, this is uncanny! I am here because at least one of your forum members came to the same conclusion as I that began when I humbled myself in the depths of humility and asked to receive from the LORD - whatever He saw fit to teach me. It has been quite a journey for me - some of which is documented in my blog.
 
To further drive home the point as to why it is uncanny that LDS haven’t even addressed the identity of the Angel of the LORD, like AlbertDerGrosse stated, we believe angels either have or will be born on this Earth. We believe God’s plan includes a way for us to become just like him eventually. We believe Michael is Adam and Gabriel is Noah. So, if we believe these things, how on Earth have we LDS not even wondered on the identity of the Angel of the LORD???

Here is a section of scripture from our Doctrine & Covenants (our modern scripture that contains revelations to Joseph Smith)

D&C 103:17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

The above scripture is part of our canon, but none (or extremely few) have wondered on who
this angel is!

Edit: Apparently I hit my limit for today as a Newbie. I’ll respond tomorrow. Thanks again all for your time.

Edit Edit: I can’t wait to reply to (name removed by moderator) (nice name lol - is that you Arnold? BIG fan) on the video below - that video is amazing! I’ve used many of those scriptures in my blog and in LDS forums to lay the case that the Holy Ghost is the Angel of the LORD. There are some new scriptures I had not considered, so thank you very much! Obviously the narrator and I come to different conclusions. First, we LDS believe Jehovah / YHWH is the premortal Jesus Christ. Just a preview - Isaiah 63 is central to linking the identity of the Angel of the LORD to the Holy Ghost AND to his mortal incarnation in the end times. Thank you! 🙂
 
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