New Forum Member Alaris: LDS & Topic of Interest

[lilypadrees]

Many Mormons deny this today. But it is still their belief and it is still taught by them on their official websites. The teaching used to be easily accessible. Now you have to dig deeper to find it. But it is there and once you show them, not one Mormon is able to deny it.

 

[KJW5551]

@Alaris, I’m done with this conversation. There are 2.4 billion Christians on earth that disagree with the Mormon idea of deification of man. See Isaiah 43, 44, 46. See Deuteronomy 6. See Jesus repeat Deuteronomy 6 in Mark 12. See John 17. See 1 Corinthians 8. See Galatians 3. See 1 Timothy 1.

 

[guanophore]

The only thing I will say about the “Christian” remarks is how humorous is the irony of condemning a guest for not being a christian.

You are not condemned, alaris. Just the heresies that have been espoused. It is not true love to confirm anyone in error.

It may not be possible for any Catholic to have a dialogue with you about the Angel of the Lord. This is because we have such a divergent frame of reference. The Catholic understanding of angels, people, and God have come from the Apostles, not the Book of Mormon. Since there is such a wide gap between what Mormons accept as doctrine, and what the Apostles believed and taught, there is little foundation upon which a productive dialogue can be built.

There are times when hospitality is important, but there are equally times when closing the door is appropriate.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

You see, Catholics understand the Mormon “gospel” as different than what was handed down to us from the Apostles.

We are bound by the Apostolic command:

2 John 1:10 If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting;

I realize a slammed door may seem “rude” by today’s politically correct manners, but the Apostles do not want us to fall into the way of heresies. To receive a person who espouses and tries to spread them is very dangerous.

And what a silly way to engage a fellow christian for we are defined by following the teachings of Jesus Christ and not in how we understand His personage.

No, Catholics see no distinction between the person of Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus.

There is so much common ground to be built upon! And I truly believe God would have us find that rather than contend over differences!

I agree that it is not productive to contend over our differences (which is why the doors get closed). Instead, we are contend for the Faith:

Jude 1:3 Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Catholics accept this Apostolic teaching that the public revelation of God was delivered “once for all” to the saints. There is no further public revelation (such as the Book of Mormon).

 

[guanophore]

I personally came here to build rather than to destroy. The LDS church is sitting on a treasure trove of truth but so many members wait for our Prophet to unveil the mysteries for them.

Happy building.

The beginnings of my journey to this truth were in answer to my prayers to receive more light and knowledge,

May God richly bless your search for Truth, and bring you into His One Body, the Church.

The Angel of the LORD in Hebrew is Malaki Yahweh or Messenger of Yahweh. Firstly, is that not what the Holy Ghost is?

The Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit is God. The HS is one person in a Trinity.

we can agree that GOD can mean Father, Son, or Holy Ghost right?

Yes.

The fall festivals are as of yet unfulfilled - and Yom Kippur is the holiest of the festivals. Paul states clearly that the High Priest’s approach to the mercy seat signifies the Holy Ghost.

No, and No.

He is the gate to enter to path back to Godhood.

Well, happy trails!

In short, I believe firmly another God is coming in the flesh and few will recognize him just as few recognized Jesus Christ.

I am not sure you have come to the appropriate forum. Are you sure it would not be better if you started your own forum? Since your views are so divergent from Catholic and LDS, maybe it is time to start a new ecclesial community?

in Mormonism where angels are seen as disembodied humans

Oh I didn’t realize that!

The two faith traditions are so radically different, not sure where the end result would be of this thread.

I did realize that!!

The metaphysics behind our very being according to Mormonism is diametrically opposed to that of Christianity.

Thank you, I think this is very important.

There is no difference in being between humans, angels, and gods, only a difference in degree.

This difference would seem to be an important factor to consider at the beginning.

 

[alaris]

@gazelam

Interesting name, and interesting spelling! Here’s another one for you:

Revelation 19:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This is the eighth promise of overcoming in the Book of Revelation. The first seven are given to the seven churches of Asia Minor. Each one is a successive step on the path to Godhood.

1. Revelation 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
2. Revelation 2:11 He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
3. Revelation 2:17 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
4. Revelation 2:26-28 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
5. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6. Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
7. Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
8. Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Take note of the 7th promise as well … the promise is to overcome even as Christ overcome. Suddenly the last verse in Matthew 5 comes into focus:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This may seem off topic, however this is central to the path that led me on this journey of discovery. The Holy Ghost is on this path himself. I will add more detail in a response to AlbertDerGrosse here in a moment.

 

[guanophore]

Don’t google Angel of the Lord. You are likely to get writing with a lot of error and heresy.

And this would influence a Mormon how?

Also , the devil and demons were angels who rebelled. The devil can be an angel of light to deceive us.

Well, if Mormons believe angels are just humans with no body, then it would seem easy to prevent oneself from deception, would it not?

I am here because at least one of your forum members came to the same conclusion as I that began when I humbled myself in the depths of humility and asked to receive from the LORD - whatever He saw fit to teach me.

May God continue to bless your journey to Truth. When you come to want to learn and participate in Catholic faith, this will be a good place to come.

So, if we believe these things, how on Earth have we LDS not even wondered on the identity of the Angel of the LORD???

It would seem to require a pretty opaque set of blinders.

The faithful will inherit from God the Father everything that Christ inherited, including The Father’s divine nature.

No.

Great way to evangelize guys…

The OP was quite clear that he is not here to get Catholic Answers about our faith. He is on an intellectual quest regarding his own espoused beliefs. He has noted that there are insufficient LDS persons with whom to engage in dialogue.

Are these off topic? YES! I am so disappointed in these post that are so unrelated to the OP

Yes and no. There are important reasons that we don’t have a common frame of reference.

I really don’t want to get off topic here, but … well … here you go

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Works are one thing, the divine nature is another.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

This difference would seem to be an important factor to consider at the beginning.

It’s important to consider, but not to harp on. Unfortunately every single Mormon related thread on CAF turns into a free-for-all and we can never have a constructive conversation about anything because before you know it there’s page after page of people arguing about everything Mormon. From the Mormon beliefs about exaltation (and their bastardization of the traditional Christian doctrine of theosis), to the veracity of the Book of Mormon or the character of Joseph Smith, the founder. At least Mormon theosis is tangentially related to this thread but everything else is woefully off topic. It’s why besides that one post I made to the OP (which I’m hoping he’ll come back soon to answer because I’m genuinely interested in his viewpoint) I’ve avoided every other piece of bait here. And let me tell ya, as an Ex-Mormon missionary turned practicing Catholic that’s really really hard to do!

 

[Roseeurekacross]

This person is seeking clarity. We can be combative, or helpful. We can guide, suggest and lead, or say yeah go for it, hit dodgy internet sites that will teach Catholic error and heresy.

 

[alaris]

I hear you @AlbertDerGrosse - I honed the skill of avoiding Bible Bashing on my mission, but that’s not to say that I am not good at it. Another skill I have acquired over my lifetime sadly is a refined sense of sarcasm - not taking the bait is not easy! However, it is truly appreciated!

Not taking the bait is especially difficult in LDS forums where I see fellow LDS brothers and sisters using the scriptures to justify haranguing, flaming, berating, and condemning others. This is certainly not in harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am not here to contend but am happy to answer questions that carry that same vibration of respect. In that vein, I have a bit more detail I’d like to share with you and the others here who are curious as to how I embarked on a path that lead me to these forums. Thank you

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

@alaris

Are you familiar with the (Western) Catholic tradition of the Beatific Vision or the (Eastern) Orthodox tradition of Theosis? These two traditions fit the scriptures you’ve cited just as nicely if not better, and they don’t require removing the ontological distinction between deity and humanity. Rather than us become actualized in our inherent divinity (ala Mormonism) God shares his divinity with us without physically transforming our individual natures. Indeed, the traditional Christian approach to this makes the incarnation of Christ that much more special for it’s by this incarnation, this Divine person God the Son taking on a human nature, and elevating that nature that we, who share in his same human nature are capable of eventually sharing in his divinity without actually become divine beings ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

This person is seeking clarity. We can be combative, or helpful. We can guide, suggest and lead, or say yeah go for it, hit dodgy internet sites that will teach Catholic error and heresy.

The OP was clear that this had already been done before arrival here.

Besides the OP has been taught error and heresy for many years. It is not like there is anything we can do to prevent what has already occurred. There is no expression of desire to relinquish any of it at this time.

using the scriptures to justify haranguing, flaming, berating, and condemning others. This is certainly not in harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Another point on which we can all agree!

 

[alaris]

@(name removed by moderator) - there are some excellent scriptures in here and excellent points that I will add to my studies as soon as I can and will be happy to report back. Thank you again for this amazing video. This is exactly why it is so uncanny to me few to no LDS have ever asked this question before.

In any case, if you have not encountered Margaret Barker’s Temple Theology you should look at some of her works. She has a group of non-LDS fellow researchers and a group of LDS researchers who take inspiration from insights she recently (last 30-40 years) introduced or reintroduced to the academic community.

I searched for Margaret Barker on amazon and the first book that popped up is an early christian mosaic that shows the Seal of Melchizedek - a seal that has recently resurfaced in our own temples by the inspiration. The San Diego Temple has this seal all over the place - a great google search for anyone interested: San Diego Temple Seal of Melchizedek. I’ll look into her works some more. We LDS certainly agree with her that Christianity existed before Christ - baptism as well.

@AlbertDerGross If you are indeed former LDS then you can truly understand how uncanny it is that nobody - or next to nobody - has ever wondered on the identity of the Angel of the LORD! It’s truly astonishing! Perhaps I need to search harder but I have been unable to find much of any information on this.

I’m curious, what leads you to believe that of the three members of the Godhead this must be specifically a theophany of the Holy Ghost? Why not Jesus? Given the LDS teaching laid out in the Endowment a pre-Mortal theophany of Christ in the Old Testament would certainly resonate. It would also align your position with the Early Church Fathers which is something I’ve found many Mormons strive for in an attempt to show continuity between the LDS Church and Apostolic Christianity.

• Now, this is the question I have been eager to answer! Unfortunately, I am out of time. I will just say for now that the foundation of this search was a series of rich, deeply sacred experiences. I have come to the conclusions that this mystery is like a thick veil that has been placed over the minds of, well LDS at the very least, that has stopped them from even looking or asking these questions. Once I finally embraced the truth after 2 years of refusal (due to cognitive dissonance) the confirmations and “coincidences” just keep layering up. I know the Angel of the LORD is the Holy Ghost to my bones, and I am happy to share what I can when I can. Thanks again for your charity.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I hear you @AlbertDerGrosse - I honed the skill of avoiding Bible Bashing on my mission, but that’s not to say that I am not good at it. Another skill I have acquired over my lifetime sadly is a refined sense of sarcasm - not taking the bait is not easy! However, it is truly appreciated!

Well you served in the Bible Belt so my hat goes off to ya! I served my mission in Germany where “Evangelisch” means “lukewarm Lutheran” so I never truly experienced Bible bashing as a Mormon. I’ve experienced Bible bashing more so now that I’m Catholic and that beast takes on a similar form: argue for the sake of arguing (rather than understanding), and bounce around from topic to topic to topic until you’ve wasted an entire conversation not really saying anything at all.

Mormon bible bashing consists of:

Joseph Smith was a pervert —>
The Book of Mormon is false because… —>
Blacks and the priesthood —>
“Secret” Temple ceremonies —>
Y’ALL AREN’T CHRISTIAN ANYWAY!!!

For us Catholics it goes like this:

St. Peter was never the Pope —>
Catholics added to the Bible —>
Y’all worship Mary and statues —>
The crusades and the inquisitions —>
Y’ALL AREN’T CHRISTIAN ANYWAY!!!

You’ll notice we can at least commiserate on the last one.

 

[alaris]

@AlbertDerGrosse

I had a roommate serve in Germany - it was a tough mission for him. I actually have considered that much of the hostility I’ve received here is akin to the cycle of abuse & bullying which helps me not take that bait. I can imagine Catholics would get an earful from the same folks from whom filled my ears. My favorite was walking by TCU’s “cement city” (student housing) where a man would always shout something pointed at us as we walked by. One day he screamed, “Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross!!!” And I said, “Yes. Yes he was thank you.” He may have confused our beliefs with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I really can’t thank you and the others like (name removed by moderator) and the others who have posted constructive videos, links, and thoughts to help me on my journey. Obviously I believe this is where God wants me to be to my core. Thank you again to the others who have offered charitable remarks. At this point I am just procrastinating some work I need to return to, so adieu for now!

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

@AlbertDerGross If you are indeed former LDS then you can truly understand how uncanny it is that nobody - or next to nobody - has ever wondered on the identity of the Angel of the LORD! It’s truly astonishing! Perhaps I need to search harder but I have been unable to find much of any information on this.

If you’ll allow me to be blunt for a moment, I don’t think it uncanny at all. Mormonism has an esoteric streak to it that lends itself to an almost class system of the members: on the one hand you have “Born in the Covenant” (BIC) Mormons who were born to two temple worthy LDS people who in turn likely hailed from multiple generations of LDS stock, and on the other hand you have relatively new converts, or BIC Mormons who were born to convert families who haven’t been as inundated in Mormon theology and culture as the “pioneer descendants” have been. When I left the LDS Church it was at something like 48% convert 52% BIC which is a huge difference from what it was like for my father in the 60s/70s at 20%/80%.

The less conventional, or less “orthodox” of LDS teachings haven’t been emphasized in quite a while in LDS circles and because of it you now have a whole generation plus of Mormons who don’t actually know the fullest extent of their church’s teaching. Now, in the interest of fairness I’ll say Catholics have been experiencing this a bit as well thanks to Vatican II. We now have 1.5 generations of Catholics who have no idea what Catholic discipline was like before 1960, or exactly how black-and-white the Church taught about how there’s no salvation whatsoever outside of the Church, as examples.

I’m curious, where do you live? Are you in the Moridor?

 

[hope]

Are these off topic? YES! I am so disappointed in these post that are so unrelated to the OP

Yes and no. There are important reasons that we don’t have a common frame of reference.

You are polite and present things in a loving way. It is not loving or very productive to attack another’s faith. He asked a question and the answers were that his faith is not christian and what is wrong with his faith which did not address the question. They were simply unjustified attacks. That we don’t have a common frame of reference is no excuse for the comments made. That we are apart in what we believe has been charitably pointed out. Dialogue is not encouraged by the remarks that I quoted which were unrelated to the topic raised. I think those posters should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[guanophore]

They were simply unjustified attacks. That we don’t have a common frame of reference is no excuse for the comments made.

Perhaps not, but it is a good reason why little productive dialogue can occur. The question is about the meaning of a certain phrase referencing a spiritual phenomena. If each party has a definition of these phenomena that fundamentally diverges from the other, how is any conversation fruitful? It is like the three blind men talking about the elephant.

 

[KJW5551]

If each party has a definition of these phenomena that fundamentally diverges from the other, how is any conversation fruitful? It is like the three blind men talking about the elephant.

Exactly. Or if one person blatantly ignores an abundance of quotes provided to them from both the OT and NT that explicitly state that God is one, and then comes back and references Revelation as if it’s some sort of trump card in their favor, it’s exceedingly difficult to have any conversation at all.

 

[AngelaMarie]

In general, I don’t think many Mormons are engaging in a conversation when they speak of their beliefs, and use what scriptures they will as proof. It comes across more as a competition, and where there is competitiveness, there are egos. Mormonism isn’t compelling, even though some Mormons think that it is.

That aside, Im glad that there were some who could engage the OP with the discussion about the angel of the Lord

 

[hope]

I don’t agree that it is a good reason to attack an others faith. Perhaps it is a difficult question, it is one that I wasn’t aware of and those who answered the question did further it along. But you have a good point if you can’t agree on a definition it is hard to discuss a subject but then again little effort was made to define it.