New Forum Member Alaris: LDS & Topic of Interest

[una_ecclesia]

One thing to note about the Hebrew for the word “angel” is that it is simply the word for “messenger”. The same word can be used for people who are not what we consider the metaphysical category for “angels”, but rather that they are relaying some message from a king or simply from one person to another.

Hence when you see “angel of the LORD” or some variation of that, be aware that it’s basically referring to one sent by God to relay a message to someone. The designation need not be a metaphysical one. So it’s not a surprise that the early fathers held that certain appearances by angels were in fact appearance by the Son, acting on behalf of the Father.

Having said all that, you do have the metaphysical category of “angels”, i.e., created purely spiritual beings that serve God and whatnot. The Son (or even the Spirit) may be the ones being referred to in certain “angel of the Lord” passages (though why do you think that all references to angel of the Lord refer to the same person? I’ve never seen the definite article attached to it, for one), but Jesus is never referred to as a Cherub or a Seraph or any of the other choirs of (metaphysical) angels.

As for trying to be friendly and build bridges as a Mormon or as a Catholic… not a problem. Let’s be honest, and approach the discussion with some sound logic and reasoning here. Thanks for your politeness… we should be the same (chill, other people) and stick to the topic. However, don’t expect for people to refrain from prying into your brain and expecting some good biblical and philosophical arguments for your case. The same should be true for us.

 

[alaris]

For starters have a look at the video shared earlier in this thread or Google or YouTube the angel of the Lord in quotes. The most popular theories you’ll find are that this angel was the premortal Jesus. Why? Well the short version is the authority, glory, and holiness qualities to name a few. Their also seems to be an intimacy with YHWH who refers to the angel as “my” angel.

I came to the conclusion in a very unique way. I had received direct, pointed promptings on the Servant in Isaiah and the Holy Ghost and a few months later the angel Jaoel in the Apocalypse of Abraham… All three being the same individual. I rejected that prompting for around two years before I stopped resisting and embraced the notion despite intense cognitive dissonance. That’s when I learned the angel Jaoel IS the angel of the Lord.

Then I learned that there is a lot of information out there on the Angel of Lord. All of this data reinforced what I had initially learned spiritually. Since its true of course there will be a lot of logic and reason to reinforce the truth. However the truth of the identity of this individual was deliberately hidden, the evidence of which is pointed in 1 Enoch and in the Apocalypse of Abraham. However there is of course evidence to reinforce this truth in the Bible and in LDS scripture (being that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet ) I’ve shared some scripture here, and I’m happy to share more. I wrote an article on the hidden aspect on my blog but that was before I had discovered many of the evidences in the Bible regarding the angel of the Lord.

Here is a prophecy I had identified with the Servant of Isaiah that some LDS embrace due to the works of Avraham Gileadi, LDS Isaiah scholar, and some by their own studies and promptings.

Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

Jaoel from the Apocalypse of Abraham
Chapter 11
1. And I stood up and saw him who had taken my right hand and set me on my
2. feet. The appearance of his body was like sapphire, and the aspect of his face
3. was like chrysolite, and the hair of his head like snow. And a kidaris (was) on his head, its look that of a rainbow, and the clothing of his garments (was) purple;
4. and a golden staff (was) in his right hand.
And he said to me, “Abraham,” And I said, “Here is your servant!” And he said, "Let my appearance not frighten
5. you, nor my speech trouble your soul. Come with me! And I will go with you
6. visible until the sacrifice, but after the sacrifice invisible forever. Be bold and go!"

 

[alaris]

Enoch 48:4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.
6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits,: For in his name they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 

[alaris]

And here is a link between the Comforter of the Gospel of John and the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

 

[jcrichton]

Here’s the my actual response:

Hi, I have not found the original notes… but I’ve pieced together another one:
7 The angel of Yahweh found her by a spring in the desert, the spring on the road to Shur. 8 He said, ‘Hagar, slave-girl of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?’ ‘I am running away from my mistress Sarai,’ she replied. 9 The angel of Yahweh said to her, ‘Go back to your mistress and submit to her.’ 10 The angel of Yahweh further said to her, ‘I shall make your descendants too numerous to be counted.’ 11 Then the angel of Yahweh said to her: Now, you have conceived and will bear a son, and you shall name him Ishmael, for Yahweh has heard your cries of distress. 12 A wild donkey of a man he will be, his hand against every man, and every man’s hand against him, living his life in defiance of all his kinsmen. 13 Hagar gave a name to Yahweh who had spoken to her, ‘You are El Roi,’ by which she meant, ‘Did I not go on seeing here, after him who sees me?’ 14 This is why the well is called the well of Lahai Roi; it is between Kadesh and Bered. (Genesis 16:7-14)
On this particular passage verses 7, 8 and 13 demonstrate that the Angel of the Yahweh is Yahweh Himself–Genesis 22:11-19, Exodus 14:19-24 and Judges 2:1-5 develop very semilarly.
11 In the dream the angel of God called to me, “Jacob!” I said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Now take note: all the he-goats covering the females are striped or spotted or piebald – for I too have noted all the things that Laban. Here Jacob has a visit by the Angel of God who reveals that He is God, the same one Jacob worshiped at Bethel.
21 And now I understand everything, hidden or visible, for Wisdom, the designer of all things, has instructed me, 27 Although she is alone, she can do everything; herself unchanging, she renews the world, and, generation after generation, passing into holy souls, she makes them into God’s friends and prophets;
(Wisdom 7 21, 27)
10 This salvation was the subject of the search and investigation of the prophets who spoke of the grace you were to receive, 11 searching out the time and circumstances for which the Spirit of Christ, bearing witness in them, was revealing the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow them. 12 It was revealed to them that it was for your sake and not their own that they were acting as servants delivering the message which has now been announced to you by those who preached to you the gospel through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even the angels long to catch a glimpse of these things. (1 St. Peter 1:10-12)

 

[jcrichton]

And what a silly way to engage a fellow christian for we are defined by following the teachings of Jesus Christ and not in how we understand His personage. There is so much common ground to be built upon! And I truly believe God would have us find that rather than contend over differences!

Actually, not.

It is not about a school of philosophy or some science/art fellowship where people follow a leader/s; to be a Christian requires that the person Believe in Christ. Believing in Christ means that we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. Being that there’s no Lord and Savior outside of Yahweh God to hold Christ as our Lord and Savior means that we hold Christ as God. He is the Word that existed from the Beginning as God and with God.

I personally came here to build rather than to destroy.

This is commendable. It is Jesus Call that we (His Followers) be one in Him as He is One with/in the Father.

The beginnings of my journey to this truth were in answer to my prayers to receive more light and knowledge, and I received some pearls of truth that laid the foundation of this discovery.

This could well be the intervention of the Holy Spirit as it is He Who Unfolds and Gives God’s Truth to the world.

jcricthon is such a user on these forums (and I do hope his or her name is a farcsape reference! See! Common ground! … maybe

Yeah, you’ve hit on the head; I’m a fanatic; no cult; no new age… I fought watching it, at first; then I binge watch about 2/3 of the first season and got hocked (though I’m quite analytical and critical about things); it’s “he.”

That quote is from the thread I linked in the OP. I’d love to see jcrichton’s notes!

I have saved the original notes on my first computer–I’ve since transferred them to disc and now usb; here’s how it got started; I wanted to respond to some acquaintances’ query about the Identity of Jesus… I took to my Jerusalem Bible and copied each verse from Genesis to Apocalypse (Revelation); I highlighted important themes and began transcribing… there I found the references to the Angel of the Lord and one I love particularly: the God of the Amen.

I hope to share and learn with you; one caveat: Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God–I cannot unlearn and/or un-Believe this Truth (Jesus).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

(GEEZ you guys, this guy comes here and wants to have a discussion on who the angel of the Lord may be referring to, and all you can do is knee-jerk the whole Mormons aren’t Christians mantra. Truly pathetic. Why don’t we talk about the topic they have a question about)

Welcome alaris, and please forgive the pride and unChristian like behavior of some of the posters here.

Hi, Angela!

Thank you for reminding the guests that Christ-like (Be Holy) must actually employ Christ; sadly, too often people get caught up in legalisms and piety… they forget (kick out) Christ altogether.

I second your Welcoming!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So is the angel speaking here or is it the LORD or is it the LORD (Yahweh) through His angel?

Obviously I have come to my own conclusion here, and again I am not sharing these to spark an unfruitful Bible Bashing but will certainly invite you to share your beliefs which I will respect.

I think that part of the issue lies with “respect.”

People cannot see the Holy Spirit (as the forest for the trees) because the Hebrews did not understand Yahweh God as the Holy Trinity.

Hence, those who study Scriptures, rather than following Scriptures they tend to follow the Jewish understanding (ie: do not use the Name of God in vain was turned into do not use the Name of G_d in vain–and out of “respect” even non-Jews subscribe to that understanding); yet, if we (as pedestrian as I am) follow Scriptures we find that Scriptures to not demonstrate God’s Power and Authority through all Angels, including the Arch-Angels. Hence when Scriptures make the point to Delegate God’s Authority to the “Angel of the Lord” we must see what God is Revealing in such Writing: the Holy Spirit is the Angel of the Lord!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[alaris]

Thank you Angel. I appreciate the explanation and look forward to learning from your discoveries. I promise I will respect your beliefs and understanding of the trinity and will do no more than share my own.

 

[jcrichton]

Some thought he was an Archangel - perhaps Michael.

Some that he was the pre-incarnate Christ

Correct!

Yet, how can we reconcile both of these beliefs with Scriptures?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The fall festivals are as of yet unfulfilled - and Yom Kippur is the holiest of the festivals. Paul states clearly that the High Priest’s approach to the mercy seat signifies the Holy Ghost.

The way things are worded/translated could also give it a spin that is not the intended Revelation…

While it seems that St. Paul is asserting that there’s a connection between the Holy Spirit and the mercy seat, in further evaluation we can see that St. Paul is actually stating that because Only Jesus (the Lamb of God) would be able to eradicate sin, the Eternal High Priest was only being Revealed as a type by Israel’s (High Priest, Levi Clan (the Priestly), and the people) Sacrifice–the Holy Spirit was making this Known (Revealing it).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

We’ll see if that link works now that I’ve leveled up here (har har.) Again, I have to stress this is NOT official LDS doctrine. I have written several articles on the Angel of the LORD as well. In short, I believe firmly another God is coming in the flesh and few will recognize him just as few recognized Jesus Christ.

I’m not articulate when it comes to many things (beliefs, taste, etc.); so I do not venture into such extremes as other people do; you’ve lost me on the 7 Arch-Angels as the 7 Spirits who are Eternally in the Presence of God; and I fully unhitched my wagon from your “coming god, in the flesh.”

I must warn you that you have ventured totally outside of Catholic Doctrine; as far out as the “X Files.” While it is true that the Truth is out there; the Truth is Christ!

What you are proposing is not only contrary to what is Revealed in Scriptures, it is anti-Christian: I and the Father are One: the Other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit: He will make His Abode with you and In you: the Father and I will make Our Abode In you.

…then I must bring you to the Old Covenant: Before Me there existed no other god; there is no other god beside Me; there will not be any other god created/existing after Me.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

Again, you lose me completely.

Jesus does not Reveal anything in such respect.

Rather, what is Revealed is that the Holy Spirit Comes as God’s Salvific Plan Requires it: to Bring the Church to the Fullness of Truth (Revelation).

He is the Means by which we can appropriate God’s Gift of Life; the Life that is Hidden in Christ Jesus even before Creation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[alaris]

Well I realize I am a guest in Catholic waters, and I do not share anything I expect anyone to accept at face value. However, I must emphasize the fact that a god coming in the flesh largely unknown to the religious establishment at the time has already happened once. There were even signs of the birth few understood at the time and didn’t have the benefit of the New Testament or Apostles to explain them.

If this type of event were to happen again, would God intend to keep it largely hidden again? I’m not minimizing Christ or His second coming here, as I do believe in the Second Coming. I believe there just happens to be a forerunner again, and this person is the Holy Ghost.

The seven archangels are the seven spirits of God in the Book of Revelation. Many focus on the fact that the Book of Revelation is an end times prophecy, and while true the larger / more important truth is the fact that Revelation is about ascending Jacob’s latter spiritually, one promise at a time. The Lord introduces Himself differently to each of the seven churches and ends each message with a promised reward of overcoming. Each introduction is different because the Lord means different things to different people depending on where they are in their spiritual climb.

 

[jcrichton]

To further drive home the point as to why it is uncanny that LDS haven’t even addressed the identity of the Angel of the LORD, like AlbertDerGrosse stated, we believe angels either have or will be born on this Earth. We believe God’s plan includes a way for us to become just like him eventually. We believe Michael is Adam and Gabriel is Noah. So, if we believe these things, how on Earth have we LDS not even wondered on the identity of the Angel of the LORD???

First, we LDS believe Jehovah / YHWH is the premortal Jesus Christ. Just a preview - Isaiah 63 is central to linking the identity of the Angel of the LORD to the Holy Ghost AND to his mortal incarnation in the end times. Thank you

Wow, this is so far from Catholic Understanding that I cannot even qualify or quantify it.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[alaris]

But He has! And once you have the key of understanding, suddenly scriptures you’ve heard and read 1,000 times take on a new meaning:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[alaris]

Or would there be a time of rising wickedness for the adversary knows his time is short and will do everything in his power to prevent those prophecies from coming to pass?

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

 

[jcrichton]

Exactly! …and God said, ‘Let there be Light.’

…on the forth day God Created the sun and the moon… so clearly the first Light was the Creation of Heavenly Powers (angels, etc.).

…then there’s the fact that “angels” are not corporeal beings but spiritual beings, how does the material produce immaterial?

The only place where no rules applies is in a billiard table when the cue ball is first struck–all sorts of connections are possible regardless of the type of game being played, even the eight ball can be knocked in on the first shot!

As St. Paul stated we are flesh and corrupt; no angel can be gotten from flesh and corruption!

Maran atha!

Angel

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Michael is the premortal identity of Adam but he is referred to as Michael again post mortally. Let’s see if my posting access is restored.

The problem is that you (LDS) are making connections that do not exist.

Adam was Created after the Angels were Created.

Angels were Created once as spiritual entities. They do not continue to emerge from any sexual or asexual or any other form of post-Creation Creation.

Human beings do not die and evolve into angels.

Angels do not get demoted into human beings (or other subspecies).

…as for your posting, moderators may find it offensive and see it as a form of proselytizing…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yet, this relationship is not do to sharing God’s essence but through Believing in Christ Jesus:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (St. John 1)

It is through the Holy Spirit that God raises man up–it is the salary that Jesus Brings to those who are in Fellowship with Him.

Maran atha!

Angel