New Forum Member Alaris: LDS & Topic of Interest

[jcrichton]

The topic alaris brings up seems to be about finding strange connections in scripture. There will be a disconnect with most Catholics. They won’t know how or why to relate.

But the problem is (lies) that the OP does not remain in the subject line; by opening up views/understanding of the LDS it begins to seem more an effort to convert than to seek the original intent: “Angel of the Lord” is/is not the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[alaris]

Wow really? That’s your takeaway? I came to respectfully ask how you came to the conclusion the angel of the Lord is the holy ghost, something you had posted here elsewhere. I had some measure of success on my youthful mission and know how to proselytize well. Starting with my own deep theories on who the angel of the Lord is certainly is working from the wrong direction.

Besides, the LDS missionary’s goal is never to convince doctrinally or persuade to do any thing other than follow Moronis promise which is to read from the book of Mormon, ponder, and pray and ask God if the book is true, and I certainly have not done that here!

 

[jcrichton]

…I believe the Angel of the LORD’s dominion is a subset - his dominion begins with Abraham or post flood, and his mortality is the fulfillment… who Paul said signifies the Holy Ghost! We LDS do believe Jehovah / Jesus’ dominion is a subset of Elohim and the throne is given to him at Elohim’s behest. Likewise, the Angel of the LORD’s dominion is yet another subset… This implies the person seated on the throne is sitting upon someone else’s throne & power.

Wherefore lies the problem. Catholic Understanding is that there is One God: the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

God Reveals Himself as the Father in the Old Covenant; He Promises that He Will Come and Be with His People, right from the Temple; He Reveals His Coming (the Word) as the Son of God (the Son of man); then He Communicates that in the Last Days He Comes as the Hidden Holy Spirit, the other Paraclete, Who Brings the Church to the Fullness of Truth.

God Remains One: Father, Son, Holy Spirit: Eternally.

While the Holy Spirit Works throughout time Revealing God’s Plan, only after the Ascension of the Son, is He to Be Revealed as the active Person of God, in the Church.

It is the Reason why the Catholic Church Calls Him the Lord Giver of Life. It is through the Holy Spirit that God Makes all things Possible.

He Proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is Worshiped and Glorified by God’s Followers.

There’s no Revelation nor future Revelation of new Incarnations or of new Creations of gods. The Parousia is not a new/future Revelation of the Holy Spirit–it is Jesus Second Coming, as the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Finally, the Holy Spirit is the Means by which God both Reveals Himself to man and raises man up, through Faith in Jesus, into the New Creation:

13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1)
4 …by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: 7 That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting… 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. (Titus 3)
3 Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called, and should be the sons of God. Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not him. 2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. (1 St. John 3)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

god coming in the flesh largely unknown to the religious establishment at the time has already happened once. There were even signs of the birth few understood at the time and didn’t have the benefit of the New Testament or Apostles to explain them.

Yet, Jesus Christ warns that we are not to follow teachings that makes such claims.

Nothing in the Oral or Written Tradition makes such claim/Revelation.

Jesus is clear that He must God back to the Father in order for Him to Send the other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit; it is the Holy Spirit Who will abide with and in the Church. He will Unfold the Truth and both Teach and Remind the Church about Christ’s Revelation.

Till your group enters the stream (1900’s) the other fold was the gentiles and no other gods were ever to come into existence.

I believe there just happens to be a forerunner again, and this person is the Holy Ghost.

The problem is that it is not a hidden thing. The Holy Ghost came to the Church at Pentecost, just as Jesus Promised, and He has stayed in the Church, just as Jesus Promised!

The Lord introduces Himself differently to each of the seven churches and ends each message with a promised reward of overcoming. Each introduction is different because the Lord means different things to different people depending on where they are in their spiritual climb.

I concur with you on this. Its not about a particular “church” in time; it is about the status of the Church (both the Body of Christ and the individual Believer); we walk in those modules presented as soon to be cast off or rewarded for our fidelity to Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[alaris]

It seems that way because it is that way. If Hebrews 9 and the mercy seat were as you said above then the action verb would be revealing not signifying. The high priest signifies the Holy Ghost and not Jesus Christ as so many believe. Without the appropriate keys these mysteries have been just that and many have interpreted scriptures such as these the best they can.

 

[jcrichton]

I think that we are losing ourselves… you seem to agree with me that the Holy Spirit is actively working in the Church from Pentecost Day and yet the terms the you use seem to belie the communality that we seem to enjoy.

The Holy Spirit is God; the Holy Spirit is God in a Spirit form; Jesus travails will not be repeated; there’s no need for it!

Here’s how Christ put it:

33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (St. John 16)

Not only that but all who Believe in Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, have also overcome the world/death/sin:

4-5 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. (1 St. John 5)
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. (1 St. John 4)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Jesus is the Good Shepherd; there’s no other!

Nothing can halt God’s Salvific Plan:

10 And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wow really? That’s your takeaway? I came to respectfully ask how you came to the conclusion the angel of the Lord is the holy ghost, something you had posted here elsewhere. I had some measure of success on my youthful mission and know how to proselytize well. Starting with my own deep theories on who the angel of the Lord is certainly is working from the wrong direction.

I am speaking to the source of contention–when a person reads through your posts they find more information about the LDS than about your quest on the issue of the Angel of the Lord.

I have not problems dealing with anything anyone has to offer since I am well segmented in my Faith; but other readers/posters may not be as comfortable.

…so, yes, I took the opportunity to offer the reason why there may be some friction (and it was a round-about way to bring it to your attention).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The problem with such attempt to make this connection is that it makes void every other passage of Scriptures that states clearly that the High Priest is Christ: the King, Prophet, High Priest in Whom the Gentiles would put/place their Hope.

It also makes void everything that has transpired (Christ as the Suffering Servant, and His Passion, Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension).

Then by making such great reach you can manufacture the Holy Spirit’s coming in the flesh–but only through great strains and empty claims as nowhere in Scriptures are is there a Revelation of such happenings.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[alaris]

Thanks Angel. I did not say the travails of Jesus would be repeated. The servant of Isaiah 11 and 49 I quoted earlier is a partaker of the Davidic Covenant on a much smaller scale. His trials and works are overlaid to Jesus’ works in Isaiah as a duality of works of salvation and deliverance. The Holy Ghost is a participator in the work of salvation and I’m confident we can find common ground in at least that sentiment.

What is incredibly interesting is that the Jews have been expecting this messiah (lowercase m) who will offer a physical deliverance. Much of what they’re expecting will come to pass and this person will not be Jesus Christ. Only, their deliverer will then testify of Christ as only THE testator can do.

The Christians who believe only Jesus will be coming will also be in for a surprise. Only the meek who are not full of pride will be willing to be wrong to accept the truth that will be on do display before their very eyes. Both the Christians and Jews will be wrong and both will be right. And only those who can be wrong will remain

 

[alaris]

I’ve laid out many scriptures and there are many more. These things are hiding in plain sight. But when the Comforter is come can only mean Pentecost? Maybe it doesn’t even mean Pentecost at all…

 

[AngelaMarie]

As a former Mormon I am always chuckling when it becomes Mormon speaking Mormon, and Catholic speaking Christianity.

Mormons, without knowing it, don’t have common ground with Trinitarians. The same words may be used, but the meaning is different.

Alaris, I know you honestly think the LDS theology is compelling. That you have a compelling argument to make.

You don’t. If these are topics that really interest you, I would recommend taking some courses in both Old and New Testament that are not Mormon but have a more traditional background.

You are talking from the LDS lexicon, which does not translate well into traditional Christianity.

 

[Crocus]

Mormons, without knowing it, don’t have common ground with Trinitarians.

This is the bottom line as far as faith goes.

But thanks anyway, @alaris, for this thread. It so helps me better understand our basic and substantial differences.

 

[alaris]

I’m not here to be compelling or to insult you or be insulted. I was extremely excited and impressed someone here had reached the same conclusion as I on the angel of the Lord. I can see this topic has run its course, and though I was hoping for more data from the original source, I have received plenty of data here from other sources I can add to my studies. I truly appreciate the charity from those who have offered it and will not forget.

To everyone else, there is absolutely no reason to sacrifice the love of your neighbor for the sake of sound doctrine when both can be easily accomplished together. Truth doesn’t need the crutches of contention and discord to stand but stands all on its own comfortably. True Christians are those who effectuate the masters teachings in both word and deed.

 

[Horton]

Part of that teaching is to correct the sinner and teach the truth. I’m not saying so much that you are the sinner, you’ve probably never been exposed to the real truth of our Lord in a substantial way. But the LDS is a false religion which will never be supported by the Catholic Church or by Christianity in general. This doesn’t mean we can’t love our neighbors, we do, we want them to experience the truth of God and turn away from false practices.

 

[alaris]

Probably a good idea to love your neighbor with the truth in a way that may actually be persuasive rather than insult them. Obviously from my standpoint I’m standing on the solid foundation of truth, but again I am a guest in your space and will do my best to respect your beliefs. Come post in some LDS forums and you’ll be met with an assortment of charitable and trollish responses just as I was here–sadly behavior isn’t the indicator of truth as it should be in either case.

I like how these posts are one long page!

 

[jcrichton]

The Holy Ghost is a participator in the work of salvation and I’m confident we can find common ground in at least that sentiment.

I fully concur!

He is the Means that God uses to Reveal and Bring about everything… when we read the Revelation about Creation we find that Yahweh God Reveals Himself as the Creator, the One that Brings all things into Being. Yet, as it is further Revealed, we find that Christ is the One Who Created all that exists. Further still, it is Revealed that the Holy Spirit Creates all things…

Consider Jesus Resurrection. As the Word, Who is God from the Beginning, and Existed with God from the Beginning, He Declares that no one takes His Life from Him; that He Willingly puts it down/aside and that He will Take up again. Yet, we are Taught that the Father Resurrects the Son through the Holy Spirit–here again we have the Triune God Revealing His Mystery and Power: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Resurrect Jesus.

Finally, we have Jesus introducing the Coming of the Holy Spirit… He starts from His Ministry; ‘I have more things to tell (Reveal) you, but you are not ready to receive it (it’s beyond the theology Israel has learned and engages); when I return to the Father, I will Send you the other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the world cannot Know (see, understand, Receive), He will Bring you to the Fullness of Truth; He will remind you of my Teaching and will Unfold the Truth; I will Give Him my Word, that’s why He will Unfold the Truth and Keep you in the Truth; everything that I Know (Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence) I will Give to Him because everything that the Father Knows is Mine.’ (paraphrased)

It is Revealed to the Apostles that it was through the Holy Spirit that the Prophets Received God’s Prophecy and that nothing of God can be Received nor Understood but by and through the Holy Spirit.

…Much of what they’re expecting will come to pass and this person will not be Jesus Christ. Only, their deliverer will then testify of Christ as only THE testator can do.

Except that we are quite past that: Yahweh did indeed Come to the Temple; the Temple (the Old Covenant form of Worship) has been leveled and the New Covenant’s form of Worship (in Spirit–the Holy Spirit–and Truth–Christ) took effect at Pentecost Day.

The Christians who believe only Jesus will be coming will also be in for a surprise.

This is not just extra-Biblical but it is extra-Apostolic Teaching.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I’ve laid out many scriptures and there are many more. These things are hiding in plain sight. But when the Comforter is come can only mean Pentecost? Maybe it doesn’t even mean Pentecost at all…

We can make anything mean what we want it to mean; however, if it is not following Apostolic Teaching it is flawed.

There are people who claim that we must eradicate the Old Testament Writings because it (the Old Testament) leads to witchcraft (and other nonsense beliefs); yet, they are basing such ideologies on what they are taught by their “religious” leaders.

There are some who claim that there are secrets (mysteries) hidden in Scriptures that only through the “science of numerology” can they be deciphered–again, based on whoever came up with such fantastic mysteries that only they can unlock–it is far removed from Apostolic Teaching.

Then there are the various ‘feel-good’ theologies that have even Satan being Restored and Saved–well, not found in Apostolic Teaching.

I could prove to you from Scriptures that Jesus, the Lord and Savior of the world, had a savior–yet, it is not Apostolic Teaching that I would follow just by connecting dots and claiming to know a hidden manna/secret that only I have uncovered (been “inspired” to know).

We have to tread lightly when it comes to interpreting Scriptures or connecting dots.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Chris-Wa1]

Why won’t you call Joseph Smith a con man when all evidence points to exactly that? He conned gullible poeple out of their money pretending to find buried treasure for them. He conned his followers with fake scripture and fake revelation. He conned his wife by lying to her about being a polygamist. He conned teenage girls into polygamous marriage, then he conned the world when he denied polygamy. He was the very definition of a con man.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.)

Absolute heresy, but coming from the con man false prophet Joseph Smith, not surprising. I know this sounds harsh, but it’s the truth. The real Joseph Smith (not the romanticized fairy tale) was a narcissistic con man and an adulterous, pedephile false prophet. That is the true history of the man.