New guy in need of answers

[goodguygreg12]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions. with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity? how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? e.g. murder is worse than stealing. i know god thinks all sins are equally bad but why do we percieve them differently? why do i feel empathy when i hear that people die in natural disasters? why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

i maintain the claim that i dont need a moral code to exist and that if i did, the bible would be a primative one to follow. thanks

 

[curlycool89]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions.

This is where you’re starting off from the wrong place. God is God, he’s not a bigger version of us; he doesn’t need to justify to us what He does. God is the benevolent King of the Universe; and like an all-powerful king He does not need to justify anything, but as the great benevolent and loving person He is we believe that if He does something He has a purpose for it (it might be something we can’t understand, not as the fallible humans we are).

There are also many passages in the Bible that speak of God as the giver of life and taker of life. 1 Samuel 2:6 is one example
"1Sam2 6:

The LORD puts to death and gives life,
casts down to Sheol and brings up again

with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

Re: slavery

This article use to be on CA (I believe).

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity?

You’re conflating a few different ideas in one question so I’m going to separate them out.

First, regarding morals and societal co-existance. There were other religions before Christianity such as Judaism (whom we consider to be our ancestors in faith) and other pagan polytheistic religions (Roman, Greek, Celtic, Nordic, ect). Many of these pagan religions had similar morals (although, they would have been imperfect), which is not surprising as we would say that they are a part of natural law (things like don’t indiscriminately murder people).

Second, regarding the one path to God. Before Christ, the only people (knowingly) following the One True God was the Jews. Nobody else had had the Gospels spread to them because evangelization didn’t exist yet (the Jews were the chosen people; other people were just “out of luck”). Again, people could co-exist, but it would be imperfectly because they did not have the Fullness of Truth revealed to them yet. It is the same thing we say about those who do not know/follow Christ now; they live imperfectly with others because they do not follow what Christ has taught.

i maintain the claim that i dont need a moral code to exist and that if i did, the bible would be a primative one to follow. thanks

To be perfectly frank, if you don’t think you have a moral code then you do not know yourself very well. Unless you are a person who acts on every whim you ever have without a second thought, then you have some sort of internal moral code you follow or evaluate your decisions against. Even if it’s something as selfish as “how does this benefit me”; it’s not a very good moral code but it would still be a code that one might follow.

 

[prodigalson2011]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions. with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity? how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? e.g. murder is worse than stealing. i know god thinks all sins are equally bad but why do we percieve them differently? why do i feel empathy when i hear that people die in natural disasters? why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

i maintain the claim that i dont need a moral code to exist and that if i did, the bible would be a primative one to follow. thanks

1.) God does not “condone genocide.” Genocide is the killing of a people FOR THE PURPOSE of their race. God destroyed certain communities because they had turned away from Him after they had already known Him (the Bible tells us the Canaanites once worshipped Him,) and begun practicing the most violent, depraved lifestyles imaginable, going so far as to ritually sacrifice their own children by burning. These were not innocent people. Were there innocents among them? Surely. The children, etc. Were they done an injustice? If we assume, as Catholic doctrine states, that such innocents are granted eternal life in Heaven, then God has more than repayed them for any temporal injustice suffered. Eternal life vs. life in a civilization that was likely to turn them into depraved savages, bound for Hell? I think I’d take the swift death and an eternity of bliss with God. Justification for God’s wrath? SIN. God would be fully justified in taking life from every last one of us. “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” What is the price of sin? “The wages of sin is death.” These two statements tell us why God can take life whenever he chooses, and also why we do not share that privilege. For us to judge our brothers would simply be a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. We, as believers, trust that God took these actions for the cause of a greater good, namely the development of the nation of Israel whom He would form in knowledge and holiness to be the people of whom He would eventually be born as a man, so that using the interaction between Himself and his people, via the tradition and law He taught them, He might fully reveal himself to all men. And we also know that God does not delight in doing these things, any more than a loving parent delights in disciplining their children. Numerous times in Scripture God asks, in so many words, “Do you think I delight in the demise of the wicked? My desire is for all men to turn from their wickedness and come back to me.” Having to take action against us grieves the heart of God probably more than our offenses do.
As for slavery, you must understand it was not A LITTLE different, it was completely different. What we think of as slavery and slavery in the Bible are two different things. The modern day equivalent would be something more like a live-in maid or butler; contracted labor for a household.

1. The world was much different before Christ. So different in fact, that everything in history is categorized as before Him and after Him (B.C., A.D.) Christ revealed fully the path to being truly human, in a way that had never been done before. Christ’s ideas on life and morality were revolutionary. No other religious system has such a perfect, selfless moral code.
   We distinguish between crimes based on their temporal effects. E.g. we think murder is worse than stealing because murder is an irreparable act. It steals the one thing which cannot be given back: life.
   You feel empathy because you are human and God has given you that gift, whether you believe in Him or not.
   We can make laws that aren’t explicitly in the Bible, because using the principles of natural law (which you’ll have to research on your own) and the principles of divine revelation, we can use our intellect and reason (both God given gifts that we are expected to use!) to develop our laws with the changing circumstances of our societies.

No one would claim you need a moral code to EXIST. Rocks exist without a moral code. But you do need a moral code to be fully human. You say the Bible would be a primitive moral code to follow, but I think you fail to realize that Western morality, the very tenets of liberty and freedom in our countries, are fully rooted in Christianity, and particularly in the philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas. It is no small secret that our societies are the most free in the world. See how no one’s torturing you for speaking out against God? Yeah, you can thank Jesus for that.

 

[Leegal]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions. with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity? how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? e.g. murder is worse than stealing. i know god thinks all sins are equally bad but why do we percieve them differently? why do i feel empathy when i hear that people die in natural disasters? why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

i maintain the claim that i dont need a moral code to exist and that if i did, the bible would be a primative one to follow. thanks

Catholics do not take everything from the OT as literal. We are obligated to the Ten Commandments. Jesus came to give us the new way, the truth and the light – the NT. Therefore, we do not take literal interpretation of the OT. Using the OT here will not win any arguments, unless you wanted to discuss the 10 Commandments or the Decalogue. A better way would be to familiarize yourself with the New Testament because that’s the basis for our beliefs - with the exception of the 10 Commandmants. There are many things in the OT which we do not follow; I won’t provide a list.

I do not believe that atheists have no moral code. It’s not a teaching of the Church that I am aware of. In fact, I have great respect for Jainism and the Hindu faiths, all of which predated Judaisim by thousands of years. Some here will tell you that the only salvation is through the Catholic Church, yet the Church teaches us that other faiths, even atheists can be received into Heaven. Won’t you be surprised?

The Catholic Church does distinguish between sins. We are taught the difference. We are also taught that some things lessen or increase culpability for the sin. Stealing is not equivalent to murder in the Catholic Church.

You feel empathy because you are human and you have a moral code.

We pass laws that are not in the Bible to have an ordered society. I’m not sure which laws you refer to. However, if you are referring to religious laws that are not societal laws, well all religions have certain precripts that might not be found in secular law. I’m not sure of the question.

You don’t need a moral code to exist, but you have one. If you do not have a moral code, you will be subject to man’s justice before God. I’m assuming you are not writing this from prison so I think you have a moral code.

I know you don’t believe in God. I don’t happen to believe in atheists. If you are here, then you are searching.

God Bless.

 

[Crumpy]

You’ve asked a lot of questions. I’ll make a few statements that may help with understanding a Catholic position.

The Bible is revelation, inspired by God. It is for people who believe in God, in the first place. For someone who does not believe in God, it gives you insights into what the faith of believers is.

If you constantly stand “outside” of faith, it may be constantly mysterious and illogical. My study of the Bible, in the environment of the Catholic Church, gives me the assurance of my faith. I understand and accept that there is a God who interacts with human history.

More specifically: God is depicted in scripture as a God of justice and mercy. We all like the mercy part, it’s the justice part that frightens (and should frighten) us.

We see the threats and actions to wipe out people. There’s always, as I’ve found, a good reason – in God’s frame of reference – for exercising some “justice” against them. God’s mercy is conditional, and God’s commands in the Old and New Testaments are fairly clear. There is always an assumption that the people against whom God is exercising some final act of judgment and justice should have known better and could have known better.

The constant sense of the Bible is that the standard of morality is outside of us, something given or derived from God’s revelation. Any other morality, sooner or later, can be seen as the subjective, whimsical, and arbitrary judgment of a man or men.

In Hitler’s ideology, Jews and others had to be destroyed. He had a completely self-centered foundation of morality – something that was mooshed together to make it seem like it was real - like his ideas of racial superiority. Hitler could only assert it by hiding his own ancestry, for example.

These types of systems have been known for a long time. The Book of Judges in the Bible has a theme that people just do what they wanted to do, what seemed right in their own eyes. What does that settle, if everybody thinks something different?

Part of my belief in God is based on a logical consideration that I don’t think that everybody should just do what they want because they think there are no absolute right things or wrong things.

 

[meltzerboy]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions. with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity? how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? e.g. murder is worse than stealing. i know god thinks all sins are equally bad but why do we percieve them differently? why do i feel empathy when i hear that people die in natural disasters? why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

i maintain the claim that i dont need a moral code to exist and that if i did, the bible would be a primative one to follow. thanks

The answer to your second question is that both Christianity and Judaism believe we humans are created in the image of G-d. This means we have within us the divine attributes of G-d, including love, mercy, and compassion, on a finite level. That is where our sense of morality comes from: it is a G-d-given part of our nature. Therefore you and I do behave according to a moral code although the details may differ from one religion and culture to another. Judaism does not believe there is only one proper path to G-d; neither does Hinduism or Buddhism. Non-Jews are required to follow the seven laws of Noah rather than the 613 laws of the Torah.

The answer to your first question is more problematic. However, Judaism believes that the peoples whom G-d destroyed by means of Jewish armies had committed numerous sins and were far from innocent victims. There is an understanding that the death penalty is sometimes necessary as a means of atonement for the sins one commits against G-d and His creation. This atonement is thought to lessen the intensity of individuals’ suffering in Purgatory. In what may seem a strange way of thinking to you, earthly suffering and death are actually a means of redemption and mercy for our sins.

 

[goodguygreg12]

Firstly I’d like to thank you all for going out of your way to respond-i know a lot of atheists would simply label a christian as stupid and have nothing more to do with him. I did go through and read all of the replies.

Secondly I would like to stress that before you read this comment, I intend to be respectful however, I feel extremely strongly upon the matter and am going to argue my position. I am fine with poeple having faith except when it warps their perceptions on life. I have my reasons for detesting all religions-not just christianity. after all either 99% or 100% of all religions are wrong.

One thing that is very common with christianity is that there are incredibly contradicting views. there are literal interpreters and figurative ones as well as hundreds of other denominations. but some of the responses that i just read were absolutely revolting.

The first and i quote “he doesn’t need to justify to us what He does. God is the benevolent King of the Universe; and like an all-powerful king He does not need to justify anything”]. That is not a benevolent god. That is a tyrant and frankly if you accept that, you are submissive slaves-not ‘sons and daughters of god’. what if you were in heaven and your child was sent to hell? would you remain obidient or would you speak up against god?

1. "God destroyed certain communities because they had turned away from Him after they had already known Him " This does not justify his actions by any means. god apparently gave people the gift of free will yet when they choose to worship be it a false god, thats their mistake, but it does not give him the right wipe them out. thats like going to a suicide cult and saying ‘if you continue to commit suicide ill kill you all’. And that person did acknowledge that there would have been innocent people in that town.but then tried to sugar coat it by saying they would go to heaven. No, they were slaughtered for having a different faith-torn away from their parents. why couldnt god punish only the sinners? surely he is powerful enough?

3)“There are many things in the OT which we do not follow”-you cant pick and choose parts of the bible to follow. you cant follow the 10 commandments in the old testament yet not agree with the rest of the book. either it all is the word of god or it isnt.that includes stoning your children to death for misbehaving.It also includes acknowledging god condoning the hundreds of young virgin women who got raped whilst their town was slaughtered.

4)“times were different back then”. Morality doesnt change with time, only the perceptions of it do. god condoned immoral acts. and with slavery and a moral code, i dont think the lines “you can beat your slave…as long as they dont die within 1 or 2 days” as a good guidline.and i dont care what time they were in, owning another person as property is wrong. couldnt god have just said 'tend to the needs of one person with more misfortune than you? (if its a matter of survival)

5)with slavery, you cannot deny that people would have been mistreated. as afforementioned, it states they re allowed to beat their property if they please. that seems a lot different to “The modern day equivalent would be something more like a live-in maid or butler; contracted labor for a household”. and who was to monitor the welfare of the slaves? and the verse escapes me but it states that slaves could be sold into marriage and masters even slept with their slaves. this is a massive violation of their human rights. yes they didnt have what you (i assume americans) have as your bill of rights, but surely god would have known that this would eventuate, even if they supposedly didnt have rights back then.

6)“We, as believers, trust that God took these actions for the cause of a greater good”. so when god killed all the first born sons in egypt to free the slaves, that was for the greater good? he couldnt think of any other way which he could have set them free? hes supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. i could do think of a way and im 17!

1. “No other religious system has such a perfect, selfless moral code”. what about bhuddism? pretty sure they didnt start a crusade equivolent.they dont even harm other animals.

In response to crumpy’s question "What does that settle, if everybody thinks something different (in therms of morality)?? It is evident that most of man kind shares a common view of human decency and from that, we can enforce laws as we do normally. for those who dont hold this view, thats why we have laws as a safety net.

This is the main reason why I dont believe in a christian god: if he truly were benevolent, he wouldnt send a person who has lived a good and just life to be tortured for an eternity simply for questioning the world around him; whilst a murderer can be ‘saved’ and still end up going to heaven. im with 80% of the world that has to suffer this fate (if you are correct) simply because i do not and cannot believe. that is not a benevolent god.a benevolent god wouldnt take sides in war.

like i said, i dont mean to offend.I just want you all to seriously evaluate what you follow and how you try to rationalize your god’s will.but what you think is a reasonable response is actually quite harmful and in some regards, offensive to people. but i know you re all good people so i respect you all. its better than the usual ‘im going to laugh at you whilst you burn you atheist pig’ comment. before I go, to quote an extraudinary man christopher hitchens: “what is more probable, that the laws of nature were suspended as a virgin woman gave birth, or that she lied and said that she was a virgin”?

and a question from me . in terms of gods power, could he create a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift it? thanks again for the responses

 

[carn]

im with 80% of the world that has to suffer this fate (if you are correct) simply because i do not and cannot believe.

You can believe:

Morality doesnt change with time, only the perceptions of it do.

Thats a belief and it ultimately aims at God. You believe there is an absolute moral code, which does not change due to details like culture or age or other things.

And its a belief because

It is evident that most of man kind shares a common view of human decency and from that, we can enforce laws as we do normally.

that is untrue and just an explanation you use to avoid the conclusion that you already believe in something.

Ever heard about south american pre-columbian cultures?
They had for at least 1000 years human sacrifices. The only change was the number and frequency, it changed from some culture to another. If most of man kind shares a common view of human decency just due to itseld this cannot be explained. Because at some time the common human decency should have surfaced and human sacrificed should have been abondened.

Ever heard about the roman laws regarding birth?
For hundreds of years it was completely legal for the father to abandon the child to die, even if he was wealthy (On the relevant wiki article a letter is cited of a husband ordering his wife to keep the child if its a boy and abandon it if its a girl). When did human decency surface and abandon this barbarity?

Ever heard about the custom in India to burn widows at the stake?
It was probably practised for a thousand years or longer. When did human decency surface and stop it?

So a general human decency is a questionable assumption. That today barbarities are generally condemned does not support that human decency finally surfaced, because the last decades the world was dominated by at least after WW2 christian nations. So on cannot decide whether its surfacing of human decency or just christian caused ideas backed up by arms.

Therefore your belief in an absolute moral standard is a belief. And one you should hold dearly. You could spent some thought upon where it is from.

and a question from me . in terms of gods power, could he create a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift it? thanks again for the responses

The question is meaningless as the term “a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift it” is a paradoxon. There is nothing greater than God, so such stones do not exist.So the answer must be No and is of no consequence.
Can God create a circle, with some points having a larger distance from center than others?

Similar, the definition of circle is that all points have equal distance to center, so such circles do not exist and the question whether anyone can create them is meaningless, as it must be No.
Such circles and stones simply do not exist not in our universe nor anywhere else.

 

[FightingFat]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions. with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

God didn’t do it. The Jews did and the OT is a history of their people. It contains many literary genres and is not the Qur’an, which purports to be a book written to us by God. The Old Testament is a collection of books (a library; from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία ta biblia “the books”) which contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy (teaching). These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.

God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. (Dei Verbum 15 & 16).

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity?

The truths of human existence are evident throughout human history. God has spoken to us throughout history; we see the human search for God throughout all cultures and all times; [BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 1:2[/BIBLEDRB]

The Ten Commandments are an outer guide given to us by God at the beginning - remember this is not Christian beginning, but Jewish beginning. Some date Abrahamic faith as old as 13,000 BC!

how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? e.g. murder is worse than stealing. i know god thinks all sins are equally bad but why do we percieve them differently?

We can ‘undo’ a theft, by repentance and returning the stolen item, but we can’t undo a murder.

why do i feel empathy when i hear that people die in natural disasters?

Why wouldn’t you?

why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

Because we tend to relativise our reality, objective reality is what we search for.

 

[prodigalson2011]

One thing that is very common with christianity is that there are incredibly contradicting views. there are literal interpreters and figurative ones as well as hundreds of other denominations. but some of the responses that i just read were absolutely revolting.

This is not unique to Christianity, in any worldview there will be conflicting interpretations. Even within atheism.

The first and i quote “he doesn’t need to justify to us what He does. God is the benevolent King of the Universe; and like an all-powerful king He does not need to justify anything”]. That is not a benevolent god. That is a tyrant and frankly if you accept that, you are submissive slaves-not ‘sons and daughters of god’. what if you were in heaven and your child was sent to hell? would you remain obidient or would you speak up against god?

I don’t have time to delve into the theology here, but to reply in brief:

A tyrant is one who forces certain attitudes and behaviors upon people. God does not do this. He does, however, mete out justice.
As for the question of the child in Hell, on Earth we must entrust our loved ones to God’s mercy and care. We cannot speculate on what we will even be in the afterlife, much less how we will feel. The Christian accepts that misery will be impossible in Heaven, even if we can’t imagine how this could be so were we separated from our loved ones. These are matters inherently beyond human understanding and therefore pointless to argue.

1. "God destroyed certain communities because they had turned away from Him after they had already known Him " This does not justify his actions by any means. god apparently gave people the gift of free will yet when they choose to worship be it a false god, thats their mistake, but it does not give him the right wipe them out. thats like going to a suicide cult and saying ‘if you continue to commit suicide ill kill you all’. And that person did acknowledge that there would have been innocent people in that town.but then tried to sugar coat it by saying they would go to heaven. No, they were slaughtered for having a different faith-torn away from their parents. why couldnt god punish only the sinners? surely he is powerful enough?

You conveniently left out the following text of my reply, in which I drew attention to the utterly depraved and evil cultures these people developed. God never ordered death on an alien people because of a belief in a different god. Their religious PRACTICES, on the other hand, were taken into account. If part of your worship includes BURNING YOUR CHILDREN TO DEATH, well, suffice it to say, this is a bit different than praying to the Hindu pantheon and practicing yoga. Again, no one was slaughtered for simply having a different faith.
“…it does not give Him the right…” What, may I ask, could possibly bestow a statute of rights and limitations upon God? God could, in all rights, destroy the entire universe. It is his creation. He can do what he wants with it. God is, by definition, the law maker and the law giver. What gives people any rights? What gives YOU any rights? You don’t give them to yourself. Your neighbor doesn’t give them to you. The president doesn’t give them to you. A piece of paper doesn’t give them to you. These things may reinforce your rights, but where do they ultimately come from? A cold, indifferent universe?

3)“There are many things in the OT which we do not follow”-you cant pick and choose parts of the bible to follow. you cant follow the 10 commandments in the old testament yet not agree with the rest of the book. either it all is the word of god or it isnt.that includes stoning your children to death for misbehaving.It also includes acknowledging god condoning the hundreds of young virgin women who got raped whilst their town was slaughtered.

This is a tired argument. Read the Bible more thoroughly. Those laws are restricted to the Jewish people as part of their formation and preparation, and this is given thorough explication in the New Testament, particularly in the letters of St. Paul.
And God never condoned rape. I’ve heard this argument before, but it relies on drawing implications from a passage that just aren’t there.

 

[prodigalson2011]

4)“times were different back then”. Morality doesnt change with time, only the perceptions of it do. god condoned immoral acts. and with slavery and a moral code, i dont think the lines “you can beat your slave…as long as they dont die within 1 or 2 days” as a good guidline.and i dont care what time they were in, owning another person as property is wrong. couldnt god have just said 'tend to the needs of one person with more misfortune than you? (if its a matter of survival)

5)with slavery, you cannot deny that people would have been mistreated. as afforementioned, it states they re allowed to beat their property if they please. that seems a lot different to “The modern day equivalent would be something more like a live-in maid or butler; contracted labor for a household”. and who was to monitor the welfare of the slaves? and the verse escapes me but it states that slaves could be sold into marriage and masters even slept with their slaves. this is a massive violation of their human rights. yes they didnt have what you (i assume americans) have as your bill of rights, but surely god would have known that this would eventuate, even if they supposedly didnt have rights back then.

You’re twisting the words of Scripture a little bit here. For one, masters were not allowed to beat their slaves just because they “pleased.” You must also look at the Bible as a whole. The verse you cite comes from God’s very earliest dealings with primitive man, not ordering nor condoning forthright these practices. The verses you cite deal in punishment for the slave master for his actions. To Jews and Christians alike, the Bible is a PROGRESSIVE revelation. This passage relates to the dealings of God with essentially savage man, a people whose conscience and civilization were poorly formed, as he begins to mould them to be more holy; more like Him. Some leeway would have to be given at first until man was civilized enough to understand more. This being the case then we should expect to see the Bible’s treatment of these matters to become more restrictive, prohibitive, refined and generally agreeable until we reach the perfection of moral revelation in Jesus Christ. And this is indeed what we see. You can’t cherry pick through Scripture. It is very complex and intertwined and MUST be taken as a whole.

6)“We, as believers, trust that God took these actions for the cause of a greater good”. so when god killed all the first born sons in egypt to free the slaves, that was for the greater good? he couldnt think of any other way which he could have set them free? hes supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. i could do think of a way and im 17!

You’re judging from a human perspective. If one of us kills someone, what can we offer them in return? Nothing. If God kills someone, what recompense can he give? How about eternal life? And again, I refer you to my previous statement, life is God’s creation. It is his property. And whether we like it or not, He can do with it as he wishes without any breach of morality. I’m sorry I don’t have the time to delve further into this.

1. “No other religious system has such a perfect, selfless moral code”. what about bhuddism? pretty sure they didnt start a crusade equivolent.they dont even harm other animals.

Buddhism, for starters, has no definitive moral code. Only suggestions. Buddhism is permissive of abortion, contraception, open marriage, premarital sex, homosexual acts, divorce. Buddhism is less of a religion than a philosophy of behavior focused on eliminating the self. Becoming nothing. Nirvana, as they call it. Does it contain some profound wisdom? Sure. But it’s not a true moral system. As for “Buddhist Crusades,” I suggest you read the following:
google.com/url?q=http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/slrv.htm&sa=U&ei=4P8NT5j4LNGatweehPC2BQ&ved=0CB0QFjAE&usg=AFQjCNGIbE4wUlN0SS0k3FDeMgHH0lgh3g

And here’s one written by an atheist, if that makes it a little more credible for you :
atheism.about.com/b/2010/01/25/religion-violence-recognizing-violence-in-buddhist-history.htm

This is the main reason why I dont believe in a christian god: if he truly were benevolent, he wouldnt send a person who has lived a good and just life to be tortured for an eternity simply for questioning the world around him; whilst a murderer can be ‘saved’ and still end up going to heaven. im with 80% of the world that has to suffer this fate (if you are correct) simply because i do not and cannot believe. that is not a benevolent god.a benevolent god wouldnt take sides in war.

If you truly CANNOT believe, you may be covered under the “clause” of invincible ignorance. Read up on it.

and a question from me . in terms of gods power, could he create a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift it? thanks again for the responses

This is an old atheist trick question. The question contradicts its premise, so it cannot be answered. It doesn’t prove anything.

 

[Third_Day]

=goodguygreg12;8806581]hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things?

Atheists like to claim that God orders" genocide" and this idea comes from chapter 20 of Deuteronomy which reads:
[16] But of those cities that shall be given thee, thou shalt suffer none at all to live: [17] But shalt kill them with the edge of the sword, to wit, the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: [18] Lest they teach you to do all the abominations which they have done to their gods: and you should sin against the Lord your God"

The Israelites are about to re-enter the Promised Land and conquer the land and claim it as their own. These people practice “abominations” that will lead Israel to abandon God.

What kind of abominations? Child sacrifice, sorcery, idolatry, incest, rape, sodomy, and murder.
What atheists fail to do is read the context. Chapter 20:10 says: "

[10] If at any time thou come to fight against a city, thou shalt first offer it peace. { [11] If they receive it, and open the gates to thee, all the people that are therein, shall be saved, and shall serve thee paying tribute. [12] But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against thee, thou shalt besiege it. [13] And when the Lord thy God shall deliver it into thy bands, thou shalt slay all that are therein of the male sex, with the edge of the sword, [14] **Excepting women and children, cattle and other things, that are in the city. **"

God gave them the chance to be saved and history tells us that some of them were saved. This isn’t the action of a cruel God but a God of justice.

 

[chepner3]

Hi and welcome to the board.

First, I will admit I haven’t read all the replies (not even yours - completely). Like many on this board, I get tired of the dotted-i’s and crossed-t’s of religiosity and prefer to live my faith peacefully. In a round about way, I’m writing this to let you know, I’m not here to debate or recite Bible and verse.

Second, until a couple of years ago, I also was an atheist. I lived as an atheist for many years and after years prior to that examining every aspect of the Catholic religion into which I was born and several other religions as well. I won’t condemn you for your atheism. I’m sure it is a position that you have come to after much consideration.

To answer your question, in my own way, based on what I believe …

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? … i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i want to know what can justify his actions with slavery.

Genocide and slavery are horrible, aren’t they? I agree. Fortunately, the majority of those atrocities were documented prior to the arrival of Jesus Christ on this earth. I’m NOT saying that God behaved differently after Jesus Christ was born. What I’m saying is humanity through Biblical revelation have interpretted God’s actions and command differently since then. We humans gained a better understanding and deeper revelation. Since the Old Testament is historical revelation, no one is going to go back to “re-write history” unless based on the original documents which are largely missing.

Personally, I concentrate on the New Testament where Jesus declared the deliverance of a new covenant. That’s when everything changed.

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. … how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? …why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

First, I believe that atheists DO have a basis for their moral code. It might not be Biblical, but there is a societal, natural, human basis nonetheless.

Secondly, government created laws may not be based on morality. It is just people who get that mixed up. There are tons of laws that are immoral. There are tons of legal activities that are immoral. In the USA (and other places), government is given the power to use force (ultimately all laws are enforced with the threat of grave harm) because we are endowed by our creator (i.e.: by virtue of being HUMAN) to have certain rights so we form governments to secure those rights for us. Governments make laws because we, as a society, form governments and give the governments the power to govern all of us.

Why are certain laws formed, even if they aren’t mentioned in the Bible? For many reasons. One is tradition. For instance, the “power to marry” or the power to recognize marriages was historically put in the hands of the king. Now we allow governments to issue marriage licenses and tax us differently based on our marital status because of that tradition. Sometimes laws are made to manipulate behavior - the IRS tax code which allows me to deduct my home mortgage interest is a manipulation to motivate people to buy houses, for instance. Laws that regulate how fast I can drive my car are a manipulation of my behavior.

Why are certain laws punished more severely than others? Because we, as humans, want justice even when it is imperfect. It is a natural human instinct. I see it first appear in children around the age of 3.

 

[curlycool89]

The first and i quote “he doesn’t need to justify to us what He does. God is the benevolent King of the Universe; and like an all-powerful king He does not need to justify anything”]. That is not a benevolent god. That is a tyrant and frankly if you accept that, you are submissive slaves-not ‘sons and daughters of god’. what if you were in heaven and your child was sent to hell? would you remain obidient or would you speak up against god?

I mine as well take this one since it was my response.

You’re still thinking in human terms. You’re still treating God as a bigger version of us. What I’m saying is that as long as you don’t move past that, you’re not going to understand. God is God, He is not us. You do not evaluate or judge God by the rules and standards of men.

Second point, one who is a true believe is not a slave of God. I follow God and His son Jesus Christ out of my own free will. I chose to follow. God does not force anyone to follow Him. That does not mean there are no (eternal) consequences, but you have free will to not follow just as you have free will to choose to follow.

Thirdly, to be frank you have no understanding of Hell. For the fiftith-bajilionth time, God does not send people to Hell. Let me repeat that: God does not send people to Hell. Hell is the state you enter after death if you have rejected God. It’s the basic definition: Hell is the absence of God.

Fourthly, this isn’t Clash of the Titans. “Speaking up against God” is a meaningless sentence. Also, our knowledge of what is happening right now in the world is imperfect, we are not God. We believe that in Heaven, you will be able to know and understand everything, therefore you will understand God (as St. Augustin said, “God became man so that man might become God”).

6)“We, as believers, trust that God took these actions for the cause of a greater good”. so when god killed all the first born sons in egypt to free the slaves, that was for the greater good? he couldnt think of any other way which he could have set them free? hes supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. i could do think of a way and im 17!

Like I said above, our knowledge now is imperfect. We cannot possibly understand it from God’s point of view this side of eternity.

And as we established above already, “The LORD puts to death and gives life, casts down to Sheol and brings up again” (1Sam2:6).

 

[carn]

We should draw lots. This thread is too unbalanced, he cannot answer 5 long posts at once without a lot of things getting lost.

 

[WesleyF]

Just read this wonderful article related to this subject. It is written by Jimmy Akin. Have a look. It was really helpful.

jimmyakin.org/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

 

[Linusthe2nd]

CurlyCool 89 #2
Leegal # 4

                                Great Answers!!!!!!!!

But I do think energy and time is wasted at this point.

 

[curlycool89]

But I do think energy and time is wasted at this point.

Yes, probably. It’s why I don’t spend a lot of time in apologetics.

The problem is that everyone wants to argue on logic and reason, but both sides will never agree what falls within logic or reason. You can’t convince someone to believe or not believe based on facts or evidence (unless there’s a miracle, but I’m sure some people in this day and age would still refuse to believe).

The real problem is that faith is a relationship with God, and there’s nothing you can do on an internet discussion board to convey that. We can speak about our own relationships with God (normally referred to as a testimony), but you mine as well do it in Klingon if you’re speaking to someone who just outright refuses to listen.

I can’t open people’s hearts, and not even God will force someone’s heart open (He will allow them to stay in their hardness or heart, just like the Pharaoh). All you can do is pray that the Holy Spirt will go before you and convince someone to open their heart. If a person won’t, then there’s really nothing you can do.

 

[fred_conty]

hey im sure you get this question all the time but anyways here it is again. two part question:

1. regarding the the old testament, why does god condone genocide and slavery? i have looked at forums that say with genocide, god tried to stop towns from sinning and sacrificing their children to false gods etc. but i want to know why god has the right to do such things? i dont want to hear ‘he’s the creator. he can do as he pleases’. i want to know what can justify his actions. with slavery, i know that slavery was apparently ‘different back then’ and that people did it to prevent themselves from starvation etc. so same question with slavery, why did god do it and why does he have the right to do it?

part 2) I hear the claim, not that atheists dont have a sense of morality but that they have nothing to base their ‘moral code upon’. my question is, since christianity is not the oldest religion,and since people claim that ‘there is only one proper path to god’, how did societies and people co-exist before the creation of christianity? how do we distinguish what is worse between crimes? e.g. murder is worse than stealing. i know god thinks all sins are equally bad but why do we percieve them differently? why do i feel empathy when i hear that people die in natural disasters? why can we decide upon, and enforce laws that arent mentioned in the bible?

i maintain the claim that i dont need a moral code to exist and that if i did, the bible would be a primative one to follow. thanks

It is a believer’s contention that God has the right to do anything He wants to do because He is “the” right. He sets laws in nature(gravity) and in man(murder). If He sets them and they originate with Him, then He can change,suspend, or ignore them and do anything else with them. He owes noone an explaination because what we set as “just” He is above and beyond our knowledge of “just”. What seems to be just and unjust by our pee size intelligence may not be that at all, because His knowledge is so far above ours that it cannot even be measured. So also his deeds cannot be measured by his creatures.

But from the atheistic point of view, why is it assumed that God is good? Maybe he is a mixture. I’m not referring to any religious outlook on God, but the atheistic outlook. It is not logical to assume that God is anything untill proven by intelligence. Even if he were pure evil, how can an atheist deny him? It does not help the atheistic position to attack any religion as being foolish for any reason. If God dosen’t exist, then the atheist must prove it on their own legs, not by attacking someone else’s position. He must show that God dosen’t exit because atheism is a belief not a proven fact. So whether there is genicide or not, to the atheist it should be a non issue until they can prove that there is no God.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[LiseTravis]

Greg-
Kudos for investigating a Catholic forum in addition to Hitchens- sounds like you’re trying to consider different perspectives. You got a lot of good answers here & I appreciate your being able to state your views with honesty & respect. All I can add is that you sound like an intelligent & compassionate person. You have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity, but I realise there are a lot of competing voices in today’s world- sorting it all out isn’t easy! All I can suggest is that you try to keep an open mind & continue to study these issues from different perspectives. I’m going to go out on a limb here & guess that you’re in your 20’s- give yourself a chance to learn & grow- you’ll be surprised how much your viewpoint can change with time.
Keep asking & keep searching, Lise