New Heaven and New Earth

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Phyllo

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Hi,

In Revelations 21:1-3 1 And* I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was past away, and the sea is now no more.

2 And I, John, saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God:

The above from the DR

Does this imply that there will be no separation between heaven and earth ? :confused:
Does it mean that God will live with us spiritually, or will we realize the Trinity and physically see and live with Jesus on earth?

Thanks
 
Hi Phyllo,

Yes, many think that heaven will be on a transformed earth, where there will be no pain, no sickness , no death. Bodies, whether resurrected or not, occupy space. It makes sense to think that this space will be on as transformed earth as it was supposed to be for our first parents and their descendents.

How about those condemned to eternal punishment? I have a pet theory on this. I think that the damned will also inhabit the new earth. But they will have to keep earning their bread at the sweat of their brow, will be liable to sickness and pain (but not death).

What do you think?

Verbum
 
Verbum said:
Yes, many think that heaven will be on a transformed earth, where there will be no pain, no sickness , no death.
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The “no death” part might be debatable:

Isaiah 65:20 - “No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.”

There is no more premature death, but there is still death.

rossum
 
If you are interested in the general judgement of mankind (what has been revealed in scripture as the final judgement and the ressurection of the bodies of both the redeemed and the damned) you should read St. Catherine of Sienna’s “The Dialogue”. It’s free online if you google it and of course, Church approved. In fact she’s a doctor of the Church. In the “dialogue” God Himself explains to her about the final judgement and the resurrected state of both His children and the eternily damned souls. It is not something to take lightly. As far as new earth goes, the only thing God revealed to man about it is that there will be one and those who possess Eternal life will enjoy full beatific vision as they do already in Heaven. You mustn’t forget that the Blessed Mother and the Son of God already have glorified bodies and already live in Heaven. Because Jesus is one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit, to see His face is to see God (beatific vision) so obviously yes, you would see God both physically and spiritually as we are made in his image- He is both spirit and physical as are we. The difference is that Christ is our origin, our Creature and we are his creatures made in His likeness. Heaven is incomprehensible because it is the full blending of the spiritual reality with the glorified physical nature we are called to in the state of eternal glory whIch is not something we can observe so trying to understand it is like trying to understand color when you were born blind-it isn’t possible.
 
Verbum said:
Hi Phyllo,
How about those condemned to eternal punishment? I have a pet theory on this. I think that the damned will also inhabit the new earth. But they will have to keep earning their bread at the sweat of their brow, will be liable to sickness and pain (but not death).

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
pambarnes1516 said:
If you are interested in the general judgement of mankind (what has been revealed in scripture as the final judgement and the ressurection of the bodies of both the redeemed and the damned) you should read St. Catherine of Sienna’s “The Dialogue”. It’s free online if you google it and of course, Church approved. In fact she’s a doctor of the Church. In the “dialogue” God Himself explains to her about the final judgement and the resurrected state of both His children and the eternily damned souls. It is not something to take lightly. As far as new earth goes, the only thing God revealed to man about it is that there will be one and those who possess Eternal life will enjoy full beatific vision as they do already in Heaven. You mustn’t forget that the Blessed Mother and the Son of God already have glorified bodies and already live in Heaven. Because Jesus is one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit, to see His face is to see God (beatific vision) so obviously yes, you would see God both physically and spiritually as we are made in his image- He is both spirit and physical as are we. The difference is that Christ is our origin, our Creature and we are his creatures made in His likeness. Heaven is incomprehensible because it is the full blending of the spiritual reality with the glorified physical nature we are called to in the state of eternal glory whIch is not something we can observe so trying to understand it is like trying to understand color when you were born blind-it isn’t possible.
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As far as I know our faith teaches that God is spirit, not physical. We’re made in His image in a spiritual sense so we don’t perceive a physical being when “seeing” Him.
 
fhansen said:
As far as I know our faith teaches that God is spirit, not physical. We’re made in His image in a spiritual sense so we don’t perceive a physical being when “seeing” Him.
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Jesus is God so we should be able to see him. Jesus a I mean. Yes?
 
Hi Rossum,

The “no death” part might be debatable:

Hey man, this is the new covenant. Once we resurrect, it is forever. Christ’s resurrection is the model for ours, and His lasts forever.

Verbum
 
Phyllo said:
Hi,

In Revelations 21:1-3 1 And* I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was past away, and the sea is now no more.

2 And I, John, saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God:

The above from the DR

Does this imply that there will be no separation between heaven and earth ? :confused:
Does it mean that God will live with us spiritually, or will we realize the Trinity and physically see and live with Jesus on earth?

Thanks
Click to expand...
The wicked are “cast” or “destroyed” (delivered up unto eternal misery). Hence, -apollumi- cannot mean extinction or annihilation. Matthew 10:28 clinches it. The soul cannot be “killed” but is immortal.

CLEAR TEXT #2 – Acts 7:59-60 RSV

And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT.” And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell ASLEEP
This word -apollumi- does not mean “annihilation” as some SdA people argue. According to W.E. Vine the “idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (under "destroy
Shalom
God Bless
 
Phyllo said:
Jesus is God so we should be able to see him. Jesus a I mean. Yes?
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Yes, but I don’t believe that’s what the bible is getting at when it tells us that we shall see God. Paul tells us that now we see as through a dim glass, but then we will see face to face. The image of God, that we’re made after, has to do with His nature-who He is-and to “see” Him is to know Him, to experience Him in His essence, a gift called the Beatific Vision.
 
Yes your are right about that but in Christ glorified is the fullness of this vision. I don’t think the physical laws apply to the ineffable state of glorified reality. In that state to know God and to “see” Him are mutually inclusive for you could not know Him without seeing Him and you could not see Him without knowing Him.
 
But Christ was made visible. He is the ultimate teacher, the one who reveals and the one revealed. God became visible and the visible state which He thus became is a part of His very nature along with His incomprehensible Divine nature.
 
pambarnes1516 said:
But Christ was made visible. He is the ultimate teacher, the one who reveals and the one revealed. God became visible and the visible state which He thus became is a part of His very nature along with His incomprehensible Divine nature.
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Is the Father visible? I think we’ll see Him either way.
 
fhansen said:
Yes, but I don’t believe that’s what the bible is getting at when it tells us that we shall see God. Paul tells us that now we see as through a dim glass, but then we will see face to face. The image of God, that we’re made after, has to do with His nature-who He is-and to “see” Him is to know Him, to experience Him in His essence, a gift called the Beatific Vision.
Click to expand...
After giving it a little more thought. Maybe it is more of a knowing (of His essence as you say) than actually "seeing"Him.
 
No God the Father, the Divinity of God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are invisible. Christ is God the Son. Christ became visible at the appointed time. He was made incarnate-human. Christ is fully human and fully Divine. He is the Sacred Mystery. He is a mystery because although He is Fully human and therefore visible (but He is glorified) He is ALSO divine and His divinity is a Trinitarian Divinity. He is ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit so although The Entire Divine nature of the Holy Trinity -Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are invisible, Christ-In His visible Humanity contains the fullness of the invisible Divinity (the Holy Trinity) in His very nature and to see Him in his fullness is to see and know God in His fullness-full beatific vision. Christ is not and never was separate from His Father and His Holy Spirit. This is called Hypostatic Union. Christ became incarnate in this union but while on Earth Christ’ body was not yet Glorified and His Divinity was " veiled" if you will in accordance with His own will. He was no less Divine or all Powerful while He was on Earth- He just willed not to reveal His true nature. Christ always was and always will be equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Christ is one God together with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Christ is literally God made visible. You will never have full beatific vision/knowledge of just God the Father separate and apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit because God the Father never was and never will be separate from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The only reason no one had full beatific vision of God while looking at Christ when He was on Earth is because He willed for them not to which was infinitely merciful considering that had He allowed it everyone would have died as God originally explained to Moses way back in exodus. God could not show up as He is so He literally came down to our level to raise us u
 
Stupid computers-as I was saying Christ cam down to ou level to raise us up to His level. His level is sooooo… much higher than ours that it is incomprehensible. Beatific vision does start on Earth though as the souls of the elect are inundated by the Holy Spirit who reveals the incomprehensible reality to the soul during sanctification. STs Theresa of Avilla is the doctor of the Church for mystical theology and can explain that better that I could although she will tell you that even though she can vouch for this understanding of the Trinity-not even she can explain the unexplainable. This introduction to the Beatific vision on Earth is also what the book of Revelations is referring to in the vivid descriptions of the first Ressurection and that you could read about in St. Augustine’s “City of God.” The best thing for anyone to do while they are here on Earth though is to take St Thomas Aquinas’ advice and " will to become A Saint" because that’s the whole reason God became man and died on the cross in the first place-God wanted everyone to have beatific vision and it is not proud to want to become a Saint because God endured a horrific amount of pain and suffering just so He could have His children in Heaven with Him. We could never deserve to be saints but God sure does deserve to have us and we are what He wants. Can you imagine the sadness He must feel when, after suffering and dying on the cross, He has to wait even longer to be with a beloved soul because they have to go to purgatory. That’s, in small part, like giving your life for your own child to stay out of prison and yet, they still have to be locked up for a crime you begged them not to commit. Pray about it and keep thinking. The Holy Spirit always assists the souls that are seeking God-the Saints can all vouch for that.
 
Something also I failed to mention (now that I think about I should have explained this in the beginning) is that man was given physical sight-you know what that is- and the Holy Spirit imparts what’s known as “Spiritual sight”. Christ came to explain the invisible-Which is why we need faith- but Christ also came to impart spiritual sight by pouring out His Holy Spirit after His passion-the same sight from the same Spirit that the prophets had. The apostles did not umderstand Christ until they recieved the Holy Spirit and then they had this Spiritual sight-and once that happened it was like a spiritual lightbulb went off. The mystics had this sight and the Holy Spirit infuses this sight into a soul during sanctification. Withoubthis sight man is spiritually blind. Although the mystics were blessed with an abundance of spiritual vision, all Catholics receive this sort of sight during sanctification. Spiritual sight is what Christ was referring to when He said “I am the light of the world”. He meant that when He sends His Spirit you will then see/know/understand. Sin blinds us.We must be made perfect in Christ in order to see. Physical vision of Christ and spiritual vision/knowledge/comprehension are now one and the same with vision/knowledge of God which can and does for the Children of the City of God (St. Augustine) begin on Earth but as St Paul said-it is incomplete. The fullness of beatific vision is fulfilled in Heaven.
 
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