New here, question about gays

[Seatuck]

Catholics struggling with Same Sex Attraction are called to chastity.
Here is one’s man journey toward chastity-

Beyond Gay by David Morrison

books.google.com/books?id=TrI2t7QhDcIC&dq=beyond+gay&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=jr5bSrzZJYToM5ultUI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

 

[StAnastasia]

Otherwise, without some sort of change of behavior,the sin of lust and the self satisfaction and self centered act of homosexual behavior in the eyes of the church cannot and will not be forgiven. It’s Vatican II’s position on homosexuality.

I know a number of Catholic gay and lesbian couples, for whom sex is no more a “self-centered act” than it is for heterosexual couples. Our parish includes both sorts of couples.

 

[Bluegoat]

To the OP,

As you have seen here, Catholicism doesn’t allow for same sex romantic relationships. That is pretty hard to get away from. On the other hand, it doesn’t say that you have to deny that they are part of you - pretend that you have not been given a particular struggle or way of looking at the world. And all these things are given to us somehow for God to manifest himself in our life.

If I were in your position, not very sure and in a long-term relationship, I think I would try reading, and praying, and perhaps attending mass, as a guest. It might not come to anything, but it would be giving God a chance to work on you and speak to you. Perhaps going on some kind of retreat might be an idea too.

 

[StAnastasia]

If I were in your position, not very sure and in a long-term relationship, I think I would try reading, and praying, and perhaps attending mass, as a guest. It might not come to anything, but it would be giving God a chance to work on you and speak to you. Perhaps going on some kind of retreat might be an idea too.

There are married heterosexual couples who’ve ended their relationships to get closer to God – one in our diocese.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What struck me when I read this was how much I am looking forward to being a mother. My husband and I are trying to get pregnant and although many will say (and have said) that pregnancy is no walk in the park, I for one am really looking forward to seeing my child on an ultrasound and feeling him kick for the first time and being able to rock and nurse him when he arrives. To me, motherhood represents a very basic but very wonderful human experience.

My husband, along with every other man on this planet, has been permanently denied this human experience of motherhood, through no fault of his own, and certainly not of his choosing. Fatherhood is also a wonderful human experience, but it is different, and I don’t think it’s outlandish to suggest that you could probably find some men who would have enjoyed bonding with their children the way their wives were able to.

God has denied men the ability to bear children, simply by virtue of their nature. I don’t think it was cruel of him to have done this, nor do I think it is cruel for the Church today, knowing what she does about human nature, to say “Sorry guys, you can’t be mothers.” When she does this, she is not oppressing men or denying them a wonderful human experience; rather, she’s observing that given what we know about the way God designed us, he never intended for men to be mothers.

In a similar way, the Church does not wish to deny anyone the wonderful human experience of marriage or sexual intercourse. But given what we know about natural law (namely that the male and female sexual organs are complementary to each other and designed to be procreative), she says that sexual intercourse must only take place between a man and a woman within marriage, so as to preserve these two ends and have a foundation for the resultant offspring.

Have you read anything about natural law? I’m new to it myself but was suprised when I discovered it by how reasonable it is. This article, called Natural Law and Sexual Ethics, doesn’t deal with homosexuality but I found it interesting nonetheless: goodmorals.org/smith5.htm

In any event, spiritmeadow, I do really appreciate how respectful your posts have been to me.

Thank you for the link. I am familiar with natural law arguments. It is perhaps best we stop where we are, and again, I appreciate willingness to talk without rancor. I hope you and your husband are blessed with children. No doubt you will find it all and more than you hope for.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Aunt Tricia’s right. If you want a true Catholic persepctive.

The problem with Meadow’s way of thinking is that no one is condemning ssa sufferers to a life of celibacy. Once true healing begins ssa urges deminish and very often the arrested natural heterosexual development begins again.

This page explains a lot: sorrowfulhearts.com/same-sex_attraction_education.html
So in reality sites like Meadow suggest actually condemn SSA sufferers with their false thinking that “you either are or you’re not gay.” If we used that criteria for other psychological/emotional disorders or psychic response/learned behaviorr no one would ever seek healing for such things as depression, alcoholism, OCD, cleptomania and more.

" …but an individual can come to understand the origins of his or her own same-sex attractions through insight gained in therapy.
Our character is the net result of our choices and life experience. An article in Harvest News stated, “Some of us are shy, some anxious, some have problems with anger or chemical dependence, some of us fear commitment. Did we ‘choose’ any of these things? Actually, all of our adult personality is the result of a complex interplay of heredity and family environment with thousands of small personal decisions dating back as far as we can remember. The results are deeply entrenched ways of feeling, thinking, acting.” Although you may have had no control over the emergence of homosexual attractions, you can choose how to respond to them…"

and through prayer and therapy you can get to the bottom of the why SSA developed and with that knowledge comes the power not only to control the urges, but to change the psychic response they trigger.

PRAY PRAY PRAY - and study but only with a true desire to know God’s Wil.
The most compassionate response to encourage SSA sufferers to follow Church teaching, draw strength from the sacraments, forgive themselves (no matter how many times they fall) and seek true healing.

I must beg to differ with you. Statistics don’t bear out your optimism that therapy can rectify SS attraction. In most cases it cannot, and furthermore, there is often irreperable harm to the patient. Many of those who claim “cure” are simply surpressing their real feelings on a day to day basis, willing themselves to relationships with opposite sex partners against their true feelings. There are plenty of studies that verify this.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

There is an amazing amount of “sound and fury” on this thread, so I thought I’d try to throw in something a bit more realistic.

First of all, it is abundantly clear that we are not arbiters of sin. I cannot say that *x *is a sin, and *y *is not, because I am preloaded with desires for sin which I would like to accommodate. The Church tells me what is good and bad for me, and I trust the Church to remain in accordance with natural law. If I start making these decisions with my own “wisdom” – or if I base them on science, which by definition does not pertain to morality – I am going to go astray.

Secondly, natural law does not change. If it was wrong 1000 years ago, it is wrong today. Science has taught us that same-sex attractions commonly exist in nature, but common does not equal moral. Stealing is common.

Thirdly, the idea that a certain percentage of the population is just “gay” is an extremely new one, although homosexual behavior has been around since the beginning of man. It is an artificial designation, and it is based on the cult of love that has developed in Western society. No relationship based on sexual love can survive, however. Love is a decision, and millions of people that we would now call “gay” in (some of) their attractions have had beautiful conventional marriages and families.

Fourthly, the individual with SSA does not always find these attractions repulsive, even if he firmly commits himself not to act on them. Human beings are attractive, and even “straight” people (if they are honest) will usually admit to finding some same-sex bodies attractive, in some sense. When you decide not to sin, you need not condemn yourself for the temptation. In this sense, I can see how repairative therapy could be harmful; but there are psychologically healthy options.

No one in this forum has every aspect of this figured out, and they’re lying if they say they do. But God is love. We are His beloved, as His church, and we will receive fulfillment only in His hands. The hands of earthly lovers are a pale shadow of what we were made for.

“If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.” - C.S. Lewis

 

[BobObob]

I must beg to differ with you. Statistics don’t bear out your optimism that therapy can rectify SS attraction. In most cases it cannot, and furthermore, there is often irreperable harm to the patient. Many of those who claim “cure” are simply surpressing their real feelings on a day to day basis, willing themselves to relationships with opposite sex partners against their true feelings. There are plenty of studies that verify this.

Therapies for various conditions often have low success rates. Alcoholism has “only a 30% likelihood of being eliminated through lengthy, often costly, and very time-consuming treatment” (Dr. Satinover). This doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be treated.

Often, patients who are harmed by a therapy intended to change their orientation are harmed because they were doing so with someone who isn’t qualified to offer counseling or therapy (such as a well-intentioned, but incompetent pastor) because conventional therapists will often turn them down, the patient was more vulnerable to harm due to a sensitive personality, or the patient unrealistically demanded immediate changes in sexual attraction and was frustrated when this doesn’t happen.

Psychotherapy which looks for possible roots of homosexuality in an individual’s life, while done with a competent psychologist, would usually not harm the patient. In fact, this therapy may benefit the patient in other ways even if their sexual orientation doesn’t change.

It could be that some who claim to have been cured of SSA are suppressing their feelings. However, I think that affective psychotherapy would in a way do the opposite by bringing unmet past needs, that are possibly behind the development of SSA, to the surface. In a way, it would eventually be “de-sexualizing” those needs.

By the way, I have heard of people with SSA having their SSA diminish the more they know about themselves through their education in getting graduate degrees in psychology or counseling.

No one in this forum has every aspect of this figured out, and they’re lying if they say they do

I often have to remind myself of this. Because I have SSA, I often tend to think that I’m more qualified to talk about it than everyone else.

 

[Tanner9188]

Hi everyone, my name is Alicia EDITED
Here is my problem. I am gay. I am 44, and knew as a young child I was gay, at 21 I married my now ex-husband, and 7 years later we were divorced. I have been with my same-sex partner for 17 years now in a committed monogamous relationship. Being straight upfront with you all, I have no intention of ending my relationship with my partner. Not an option. I do believe I was born this way, and I have been in therapy several times long-term and it is a part of me, same as my blue eyes.
What I want to know is this, am I able to convert? EDITED FOR SPACE
Any thoughts? Thank you, and I am happy to meet you all.Alicia

**Hello Alicia,
It is not a church or religion you will ultimately answer to regardless of your situation. I have a blood brother who is a practicing homosexual. I have spoken to him concerning the Word of God and his chosen lifestyle. You may believe as he does that God made him that way & that may even be true, but irrelevant. He also claims the Name of Jesus and if you were to ask him if he were a Christian he would say yes. When you show him what God says about his lifestyle and the condemnation God has pronounced on such behavior.
He is aware of, as I am sure you are of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
The bad news is in blue; but God in His mercy is shown in the magenta color. Let us assume that God did in fact make my brother as such; does it change the God’s position on the issue? No He is unchangeable.
I myself am married in a marital relationship that God has ordained. If left to our own, which I was at one time; fornication was fun; at least I thought it was this is before marriage. I said all that to say this; do you believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God? If you do, then you can progress forward; if not, then you will continue to live in your sin without Jesus.

We are all tempted in many areas of our lives to sin; it is part of our nature, but the sin and thus the offense to God occurs when you act on that sin. Knowing the standard and intentionally disregarding for one’s own pleasure will lead to the path of destruction regardless of what church you were to go to because it is God that is the judge and He has made it known where He stands and cannot be shaken. Jesus was tempted in ways you and I could not comprehend; this is why He is sympathetic. However, if you truly love Him above all else, then you will have to be willing to give things up and a Christian will do so with joy. It is not the temptation that is the sin; it is acting upon that temptation that is the sin.
My brother refused to listen and even told me that he hoped God would give me the wisdom to understand and accept him and his lifestyle as God has. He does not believe the Word of God; otherwise He would not made such a statement. Therefore he is willing to continue to store up wrath for a little pleasure now; for life is but a vapor, then the judgment. If he does not repent and realize the offense to God and cry out for mercy, then he will die in his sins. The reality is that eternity is forever and you will be in one place or the other. Most will be in hell and few will be in heaven because of their own selfish ambitions and pride. I am blessed because for me it is a no brainer; short life of obedience to my Savior and Lord with a heart of repentance and a indefinite time of peace and love in a world where their is no sin and thanking the Savior everyday for receiving me. Versus a short life of selfish pleasure in exchange for an eternity in hell.

I am a man; don’t think that temptations are not there especially concerning when another woman passes by that is gorgeous in every manner. Why do you think so many people cheat on their spouses; it is the temptation that they cannot resist and act on it. Everyone has their temptations and tests in this life, but nothing is worth the glory to come and it is forever. I’ll tell you when I first became a Christian, God took away people in my life that I cared a great deal about and even family members there is always some strife, but Jesus said it one does not hate the mother, father, brother or sister for me; then they are not worthy of me. Sounds very harsh, but actually it is very loving because He knows what is waiting for us and knows what is best if you just trust Him.

He showed this love when he kicked Adam and Eve out of this lush garden; does not seem like it was nice, but their was a tree with fruit called the tree of life; if they had eaten from that tree they would live forever in sin and no one would be able to be saved. So He did the hard thing and kicked them out and put cherubim with flaming swords to guard against them from coming back and making a real fatal error.

I know you have heard all of this before, but if you are looking for someone to give you reassurance that you are okay, then that person has no love for you and is deceiving you and themselves. It is a tough choice; especially given that there are children involved, but in the end God will take care of His own because He keeps His promises unlike people.

I would suggest you begin by reading this book from Joe Dallas; like some of the Corinthians, Joe Dallas is able to say with them " Such were some of you; but you were washed"
May God bless you and my brother!
Tanner**

 

[LittleBits]

Welcome Alicia! It is so nice to see another gay person who is Catholic (or at least thinking of joining our faith). You most definitely are welcome to our Church, you and your home family. Personally, I do NOT feel that God does not want us (gay ppl) to have a full, happy, and healthy relationship. It just doesn’t make sense to me, and when things don’t make sense, usually they aren’t true. However, I would find a Priest or member of the clergy I was comfortable with, and discuss the issue with them. I am sure you will find the answer.

 

[djeter]

Welcome to the Church Alicia.

I converted a few years back and I have found it to be totally different from what I had originally thought. I don’t think you need to be perfect but you do need an awareness of sin and the role it plays in your life. I think all the Church can ask of you is to confess your sins honestly.

Here is a conversion story I have appreciated greatly.

My God my bright abyss
Into which all my longing will not go
Once more I come to the edge of all I know
And believing nothing believe in this:

And there the poem ends. Or fails, rather, for in the three years since I first wrote that stanza I have been trying to feel my way — to will my way — into its ending. Poems in general are not especially susceptible to the will, but this one, for obvious reasons, has proved particularly intractable.

As if it weren’t hard enough to articulate one’s belief, I seem to have wanted to distill it into a stanza. Still, that is the way I have usually known my own mind, feeling through the sounds of words to the forms they make, and through the forms they make to the forms of life that are beyond them. I have always believed in that “beyond,” even during the long years when I would not acknowledge God. I have expected something similar here. I have wanted some image to open for me, to both solidify my wavering faith and ramify beyond it, to say more than I can say…

more here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/30/conversion-stories-my-bright-abyss/

In Christ,

dj

 

[CarlaOLS]

Spiritmeadow wrote:

Many of those who claim “cure” are simply surpressing their real feelings on a day to day basis, willing themselves to relationships with opposite sex partners against their true feelings.

What an assumption!
I’m always alarmed and saddened by how easily people swallow the lies and exaggerations of gay activists. Of course this rhetoric is more palatable than an admission that some not only change but find genuine happiness and fulfillment in doing so.

But I hate the term “change” as it seems to imply the altering of homosexual feelings into heterosexual feelings. This is NOT what happens in authentic cases of healing.
The homosexual attractions are a learned response and as the wounds and weaknesses that abetted their development are discovered and addressed in healthy ways, the attractions diminish in power and often disappear. IF a heterosexual maturatrion begins at that point, it can appear as if the one “changed” into the other. It didn’t. The needs that drive homosexual desire are not the flip-side of those that drive a natural attraction to the opposite sex.

I dispute the phony claims of gay activists about harm done by therapy. They use these tactics to scare those with unwanted SSA into thinking they can not alter their desires. There are many unstable people with SSA. It is part and parcel of their condition in the first place. The difference is if a person in therapy seeks to change their schizophrenia and does himself harm, no one blames the therapy.

Continue to search and seek Jesus honestly and with your whole heart. He is the Truth and He will not mislead you. Find Him in His Word, find Him in His Sacraments and in His Holy Church.

God bless you.
In prayer, Carla

 

[chrysostim83]

Hi Carla,

It seems reasonable to me to accept the activists’ claim that some (but not all) people perceive themselves to have been harmed by this kind of therapy. There are online testimonials of people who report having been more depressed and suicidal after trying but failing to change their sexual orientation; and some psychotherapists could probably tell you about some of the patients they’ve seen who reported the same thing.

Of course, these anecdotes don’t amount to much. As you point out, it’s easy to dismiss them. But there is a good theoretical account as to how this kind of therapy could be harmful. Most of the therapists who offer to heal one of a homosexual orientation have observed that the clients who improve the most tend to be the most motivated. From this, they draw the illegitimate conclusion that it is helpful to motivate their clients (the conclusion is illegitimate because the causal links between motivation and healing haven’t been elucidated). The motivation they offer may consist in convincing the clients that it is a very bad thing “to be gay;” I suspect, for example, that Rick Fitzgibbons is pretty up front with his clients about how he believes gay people are immature, mentally ill, and essentially a menace to society and the family. Now, if or when the therapy fails to bring about any healing, the former client will find he or she has a higher dose of what is called “internalized homophobia,” and this in turn can drive the poor wretch further into depression and despair.

For my part, I would say anecdotal evidence plus a good theoretical explanation equals a valid concern about the harm this kind of therapy might do.

Again, not everyone will be harmed by their efforts to change their sexual orientation. But I think that people who are considering making such efforts should be aware of the serious side-effects they may encounter if their efforts do not succeed. It would not be compassionate either to blame the victims (if the anecdotes are to be believed) or to recommend without a modicum of caution a kind of therapy whose safety is not known with certainty.

 

[djeter]

**A New Therapy on Faith and Sexual Identity **

Psychological Association Revises Treatment Guidelines to Allow Counselors to Help Clients Reject Their Same-Sex Attractions

*From the WSJ: *
The men who seek help from evangelical counselor Warren Throckmorton often are deeply distressed. They have prayed, read Scripture, even married, but they haven’t been able to shake sexual attractions to other men — impulses they believe to be immoral.

Dr. Throckmorton is a psychology professor at a Christian college in Pennsylvania and past president of the American Mental Health Counselors Association. He specializes in working with clients conflicted about their sexual identity.

The first thing he tells them is this: Your attractions aren’t a sign of mental illness or a punishment for insufficient faith. He tells them that he cannot turn them straight.

But he also tells them they don’t have to be gay.

For many years, Dr. Throckmorton felt he was breaking a professional taboo by telling his clients they could construct satisfying lives by, in effect, shunting their sexuality to the side, even if that meant living celibately. That ran against the trend in counseling toward “gay affirming” therapy — encouraging clients to embrace their sexuality.

But in a striking departure, the American Psychological Association said Wednesday that it is ethical — and can be beneficial — for counselors to help some clients reject gay or lesbian attractions.

The APA is the largest association of psychologists world-wide, with 150,000 members. The association plans to promote the new approach to sexuality with YouTube videos, speeches to schools and churches, and presentations to Christian counselors.

According to new APA guidelines, the therapist must make clear that homosexuality doesn’t signal a mental or emotional disorder. The counselor must advise clients that gay men and women can lead happy and healthy lives, and emphasize that there is no evidence therapy can change sexual orientation.

the rest here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/18/faith-and-sexual-identity/

dj