New ICEL Mass translation

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It looks like the changes in the ICEL draft were made by the Mass-Is-Too-Long cardinals.
 
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BayCityRickL:
It looks like the changes in the ICEL draft were made by the Mass-Is-Too-Long cardinals.
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Huh??

Are you saying that you think the changes are going to make the Mass shorter, or are you saying that the committee responsible for drafting these changes are making the Mass too long?

Personally, I think the changes are definitely not going to shorten the Mass, but they are not going to increase the length very much either… and I love the re-translation!! If you get a chance to read the priest’s parts that are changed (especially the Eucharistic Prayer I - perhaps if I have time tonight I will try to post that at least).

If the final re-translation is anywhere near what this one is, I call it beautiful! 👍

+veritas+
 
The “Christ has died…etc.” was taken out in this draft because it wasn’t in the original Latin to begin with. More importantly, the Mystery of Faith refers to the Real Prescence in the Eucharist and how it makes Calvary present.

Proclaiming “Christ has died…Christ is risen…Christ will come again…” seems to bypass what the Mystery of Faith actually is.

But again, for most people, catechesis is what lifts the bushel basket off the light, and as beautiful a translation can be, without proper teaching and explanation, it won’t make a difference.

Interestingly, I came across an old hymnal from 1966, and the translation used “And with your spirit” and the whole ordinary with almost the same words as the draft.
 
I’ve just been doing a search for those texts as well, since i heard last November that they were to be released this month.
My fondest wish is that by posting this and puting this thread back on the map, maybe someone has more up to date information?
 
+veritas+:
I just got back from Steubenville’s Defending the Faith conference, and Cardinal Arinze celebrated one of the Masses. It sounded like he was using at least a partial version of the new ICEL translation that is hopefully to be released this fall (“My sacrifice and yours”, “and with your spirit” among others that I can’t remember).
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Is this licit? To use the new translation before it’s been officially agreed upon?

I know my parish had started doing some things in “anticipation” of the revised GIRM, based on things that were in various stages of the drafts, but which ultimately never made it into the final approved version. So I would exercise prudence, even if I were Cardinal Arinze.
 
By the way, I recently heard from a friend who had heard Cardinal George address the issue of “and also with you” vs. “and with your spirit”. It was pretty interesting, although my memory is a little fuzzy…

If I recall correctly, the idea is that the congregation is recognizing not just the person of the priest (“and also with you”), but the spirit of God acting in the person of the priest (“and with your spirit”). So it really does make a difference.

Would anyone care to elaborate?
 
I don’t see why they just don’t consult the old missal for translation, which they seem to have done, but struck out words (the Gloria for instance).
et cum spiritu tuo is and with your spirit, no big deal, it’s the correct translation.
the latin confiteor is nice, don’t know why they just don’t use that prayer in english.
The Domine, non sum dignus… or Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur, anima mea.
or in English, Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof; but only say the word, and my soul will be healed.
 
+veritas+:
I just got back from Steubenville’s Defending the Faith conference, and Cardinal Arinze celebrated one of the Masses. It sounded like he was using at least a partial version of the new ICEL translation that is hopefully to be released this fall (“My sacrifice and yours”, “and with your spirit” among others that I can’t remember).

+veritas+
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So is this closer to the TLM than the NO now?
 
Not closer as they leave out parts of the tlm prayers, but some copy them as well. The gloria in the icel translation is not the tlm gloria. The credo is not the absolute credo. they borrow parts it seems. someparts are the same though the domine non sum dignus is the same as the tlm. and with your spirit is the tlm. the tlm says only-begotten son, where the new translation listed above doesn’t say that. So yes, it borrows from it, but it isn’t it… but who is to say the english in the old latin missals is correct, as it is very hard to translate languages.
 
Don’t want to get too off topic but when was “Happy are those who are called to His Supper” after …“Who takes away the sins of the world.”
 
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EddieArent:
Don’t die on me thread! Anyone see this article below? I found it on Free Republic. Haven’t read it in full, just bits and pieces. Anyway, it’s an interesting read.

lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=18&p=Y
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Didn’t think much of it. For one thing, he has his columns confused. the one with the Novus Ordo heading should be over the one entitled ICEL and vice versa (“born of the Father before time began” is the ICEL translation, not the NO…he made the same mistake for the whole comparison). Also, he denigrates the Church, wondering in another article on Fr. Neuhaus if he (the author) “will ever get to join the real Cathlolic Church?” Another “rad trad” site, best to be avoided by those who would be faithful to Peter’s successor.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Didn’t think much of it. For one thing, he has his columns confused. the one with the Novus Ordo heading should be over the one entitled ICEL and vice versa (“born of the Father before time began” is the ICEL translation, not the NO…he made the same mistake for the whole comparison). Also, he denigrates the Church, wondering in another article on Fr. Neuhaus if he (the author) “will ever get to join the real Cathlolic Church?” Another “rad trad” site, best to be avoided by those who would be faithful to Peter’s successor.
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What’s your FReeper name?
 
For the most up-to-date on information on all aspects of official Church doings, go to

adoremus.org/

It’s a great site and a fine organizaton. For this thread, just follow the propmts to “Translations.” They have most of the old and new prayers for comparison, plus all of the curent doings.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Didn’t think much of it. For one thing, he has his columns confused. the one with the Novus Ordo heading should be over the one entitled ICEL and vice versa (“born of the Father before time began” is the ICEL translation, not the NO…he made the same mistake for the whole comparison).
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Where’s ‘before time began’? I couldn’t find it - nor did I see the confusion you mention.

While I don’t have much time for over-the-top traddies, the points the guy makes are generally irrefutable. I’ve spent a fair amount of time singing the Latin NO Mass, and comparing the texts (yes, I know I should have been lost in prayer, but you try singing Latin in a choir and losing yourself in prayer at the same time), and the texts are translated very loosely - indeed, I’d call many of them paraphrases rather than translations. It’s all very well to use ‘dynamic equivalence’, but a lot of the ICEL version is dynamic without being in the least equivalent.

There are smaller differences as well, which the guy on that site doesn’t mention - not, perhaps, so noticeable, but in some cases, deeply significant. I’ll just quote one.

After the Lord’s Prayer, the priest prays as follows (I give English, with the Latin in blue):
Code: 
Deliver us, Lord, from every evil,
Lìbera nos, quaesumus, Dòmine, ab òmnibus malis
Code: 
and grant us peace in our day.
da propìtius pacem in dièbus nostris,
Code: 
In your mercy, keep us free from sin
ut, ope misericòrdiae tuae adiùti, et a peccàto simus semper lìberi
Code: 
and protect us from all anxiety
et ab omni perturbatiòne secùri
as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. :
exspectàntes beàtam spem et advèntum Salvatòris nostri Jesu Christi.

The bit I’d like to draw your attention to is the penultimate line in the English: ‘as we wait…’. The Latin, translated, actually reads: “[as we are] awaiting the blessed hope and coming of our Saviour…” It’s the Second Coming which is the ‘blessed hope’; in the English, it’s our emotions which are blessed. This is characteristic of the ICEL translation throughout: we are important - certainly too important to beseech or implore or humbly ask (almost all those phrases, which abound in the Latin, are simply cut out in the English.

I’m not asking for a ‘Latinate’ translation, although there might be worse things - just something which is faithful to the Normative Rite: and that, the ICEL translation simply isn’t.

Sue
 
Bobby Jim:
Is this licit? To use the new translation before it’s been officially agreed upon?

I know my parish had started doing some things in “anticipation” of the revised GIRM, based on things that were in various stages of the drafts, but which ultimately never made it into the final approved version. So I would exercise prudence, even if I were Cardinal Arinze.
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Any Canon Lawyers out there? I would also like to know the answer to this. As another thread discussed, many parishes have dropped “men” from the Creed for years (even w/o knowing the ICEL might drop it in the future).

How are English translations promulgated officially by the Church? Does it just come from the US Bishops, or does it need to come from the Vatican?

I’m a strong believer in obedience to the Church. It drives me nuts to see parishes messing with the Mass on their own.

God Bless,

Robert.
 
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