New Jersey Teacher Has Sex Change Surgery

[Tristan_daCunha]

AndyF:

If this wasn’t medically required, then it is a desecration of the temple of God.

But what is “medically necessary”? If a person is born with fingers fused together, or with eyes which do not track as a pair - and this can be changed to help that person lead a more normal life - is it mutilation to do such surgery? Isn’t quality of life a consideration?

And who decides what is medically necessary? Isn’t this a decision made between a doctor and the patient?

(BTW, Happy New Years, everyone!)

 

[aspawloski4th]

Tristan daCunha:

But what is “medically necessary”? If a person is born with fingers fused together, or with eyes which do not track as a pair - and this can be changed to help that person lead a more normal life - is it mutilation to do such surgery? Isn’t quality of life a consideration?

And who decides what is medically necessary? Isn’t this a decision made between a doctor and the patient?

(BTW, Happy New Years, everyone!)

thankyou much!!! maybe words like necessary, need, and other words of that ilk need defining again in our society, on account that everyone seems to have a different definition of necessary and need. one wouldnt know it from my posts here, but as a child I was brought up with the most narrow survivalistic definition of those 2 words. which basically says if it doesnt physically keep you alive it isnt a need. with that type of view on the word necessary ,if you have food of any kind in your stomach, a roof over your head, and a shirt on your back, you have all you need. That type of thinking would make us no better than animals! we are more sophistacated than that!!! Humans have a soul, a psychie, and non physical needs!!! Surviving to the next day isnt suposed to be good enough for us. That theme is throughout the Bible. Most of what I read in these forums when we debate here is thinking byond surviving like the common wild animal, but suddenly when human sexual identity gets mentioned many here revert to that survive to the next day type thinking. And those who hold that tradional line of thinking seem very upset with anything that entails “thinking outside the box” which amazes me to the upmost. we are at a stalemate on this thread and this subject. Im wondering if those on the opposite side of me can do the thing that well meaning American gentlemen and gentle ladies used to do when they disagree and cant convince those who disagree to agree with them? Agree to diagree.Something Americans used to do, but cant seem to anymore.

 

[Lynn-D]

BlindSheep:

Again, not related to the surgery you describe.
I wonder if feeling normal is all it’s cracked up to be. What about appreciating the way God made us?

Correction: your priest did not. Your priest may or may not represent the Church in this case.

1st point: When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, which was a place of perfection, it was then that man became an imperfect being to suffer the ailments which are now imposed upon all of us in differing degrees. That can not be denied! God gave us a soul to reflect His image I believe but did not create our imperfect body for any of us in His image. Could we agree on that?
I believe that God did make us to reflect His image, - His spiritual image. He did allow us to be formed with physical faults which of course His image would not have so therefore not ‘in His image’.
I find it very difficult to ‘appreciate’ looking at a child born with a life threatening condition and/or a mental defect. Should I accept that as being ‘normal’ and insist the child forever ‘appreciate’ the ailment. An analogy might be made that God created the plan for the human species but not the actual construction. He being the architect if you will with nature being the contractor. Perhaps He designed it so the structure/body would bear the pains inherited as a result of our original parents sins, a payback perhaps. I really don’t know since I do not sit beside God, - yet.
I find it ludicrous for some to opine and make judgment that others have sinned. Again, some should read Matthew 5:10. I see many at mass with me that I know have violated at least one of the ten commandments. Yet, I can not find one single reference in the bible that addresses what I and the doctors did as being sinful. How then is it that some would find my deed sinful yet easily ignore those sins clearly defined in the bible. They would cast me out while inviting into their homes those who daily mock the laws of God by deed and word. I often wonder how many live according to the Law given to Moses as I try to do.
Point 2: My priest was simply the conveyor. He sent the paper work to his Cardinal whom I supposed from comments made had passed it on to the responsible party in Rome. When the amended baptismal certificate came back it came from the Cardinals office.
Lynn-D

 

[AndyF]

Tristan daCunha:

But what is “medically necessary”? If a person is born with fingers fused together, or with eyes which do not track as a pair - and this can be changed to help that person lead a more normal life - is it mutilation to do such surgery? Isn’t quality of life a consideration?

And who decides what is medically necessary? Isn’t this a decision made between a doctor and the patient?

(BTW, Happy New Years, everyone!)

There are cases of children being born with male/female combination genitalia for whatever reason, and even adults.(forget the medical term for this.) These cases can usually be traced to a bona-fide time in their lives where something was medically wrong. There is a therapy to get these unfortunate people on the correct sexual track, and this is commended.

But we are more and more seeing a case where when the final phase of habitual HS as finally arrived, these victims succumb to that final temptation of deception, the desecration of the temple. These people view there lives has a natural transitional phase, part of the deception. For a male he’s had a few dates with girls, perhaps he can recall that one true love, he gets tempted and gives in to male attraction, he continues in a downward spiral, graces withheld one after another, as the days shine ever brighter and every day is a rosy one assured by satan’s hands off policy when things are looking good and he has someone where he has him. Finally, one additional slight to God must be the final end, and he submits to a sex change.

At this point the demon is laughing, because the person now must proceed to the reception of any Sacrament in this distorted form evidence of his allegiance to evil agreed to. He/She will try to marry, again, the compounding hurts God one more time. But this time he is unaware that it is not a Sacrament he is receiving, but a sanction by demons, as this is an occult ritual, as Christ would not preside over such an abomination.

Andy

 

[Lynn-D]

AndyF:

There are cases of children being born with male/female combination genitalia for whatever reason, and even adults.(forget the medical term for this.) These cases can usually be traced to a bona-fide time in their lives where something was medically wrong. There is a therapy to get these unfortunate people on the correct sexual track, and this is commended.

Forget the medical term??? I have no idea of what you are talking about and most assuredly can never see your point as being boni-fide. Maybe you are saying that people born with a medically described condition could be treated. Yes??? Guess what? I did just that!

But we are more and more seeing a case where when the final phase of habitual HS as finally arrived, these victims succumb to that final temptation of deception, the desecration of the temple. These people view there lives has a natural transitional phase, part of the deception. For a male he’s had a few dates with girls, perhaps he can recall that one true love, he gets tempted and gives in to male attraction, he continues in a downward spiral, graces withheld one after another, as the days shine ever brighter and every day is a rosy one assured by satan’s hands off policy when things are looking good and he has someone where he has him. Finally, one additional slight to God must be the final end, and he submits to a sex change.

Ok, I give up. What is the HS you speak of? I did not in any way desecrate a temple. I corrected my body. No dates with girls, no love for one; not tempted to male attraction, (in fact was abused by perverts twice); no deception except for the feelings I was forced to withhold in fear. I never slighted God, I loved Him. How dare you or any other ignorant bigot say such a thing?

At this point the demon is laughing, because the person now must proceed to the reception of any Sacrament in this distorted form evidence of his allegiance to evil agreed to. He/She will try to marry, again, the compounding hurts God one more time. But this time he is unaware that it is not a Sacrament he is receiving, but a sanction by demons, as this is an occult ritual, as Christ would not preside over such an abomination.

I have always been a faithful Catholic and even attended a Catholic grammar school where a teacher knew of my feelings.
Occult??? How dare you accuse any Catholic of that dirty term. It is perhaps you who have forgotten the love Christ had for all: the dirty, the sick, the blind, the begger, the hungry and more. Where would those who condemn in His name today have standing with Him I wonder?
Ignorance is the ally of the devil. I see comments made here as evidence of that.
Lynn-D

Andy

 

[aspawloski4th]

AndyF:

There are cases of children being born with male/female combination genitalia for whatever reason, and even adults.(forget the medical term for this.) These cases can usually be traced to a bona-fide time in their lives where something was medically wrong. There is a therapy to get these unfortunate people on the correct sexual track, and this is commended.

But we are more and more seeing a case where when the final phase of habitual HS as finally arrived, these victims succumb to that final temptation of deception, the desecration of the temple. These people view there lives has a natural transitional phase, part of the deception. For a male he’s had a few dates with girls, perhaps he can recall that one true love, he gets tempted and gives in to male attraction, he continues in a downward spiral, graces withheld one after another, as the days shine ever brighter and every day is a rosy one assured by satan’s hands off policy when things are looking good and he has someone where he has him. Finally, one additional slight to God must be the final end, and he submits to a sex change.

At this point the demon is laughing, because the person now must proceed to the reception of any Sacrament in this distorted form evidence of his allegiance to evil agreed to. He/She will try to marry, again, the compounding hurts God one more time. But this time he is unaware that it is not a Sacrament he is receiving, but a sanction by demons, as this is an occult ritual, as Christ would not preside over such an abomination.

Andy

Youv’e gotta be kidding me! that a tweaked version of the :devil made me do it" what next? The Holy See wouldnt even agree with this.This line of thinking sounds more like Calvinistic puritan thinking more than Catholic thinking to me.that mind set would get more souls to Hell by keeping someone the sex they are born with but cant live with through the suicide it would cause, or for other who dont commit suicide but do other self destructive behavior because they cant live with thier sexual identity.Just wondering about that statement you made that I quoted and replied to, what bishop or Vatican official said that? if no church official said that, the nextime you speak on this subject with ideas like that please dont imply you are speaking for the church or most Catholics.Statements like that give Catholics a bad name more than I or most people I know are willing to deal with.

 

[BlindSheep]

Lynn-D -
I don’t really know what you are talking about. When you say “gnomes” I assume it’s a typo and you meant “genomes”? So what you are saying is your brain actually has a different genetic code than the rest of your body? Or that you are genetically female, and were born with male genetalia? Well, whatever the case, I’m not a doctor, nor am I an expert in canon law. Your decisions are your responsibility; if you informed yourself and made a decision in good conscience, I do not claim to know all there is to know about the moral implications of every medical condition. I must say, I do not envy the priests you consulted with. I don’t know the full moral and medical implications of your situation, but I do get an impression through this forum, and that is an impression of a person who will not take no for an answer. I hope this is not so, because everyone has times in life when they need to accept things- but I’ll leave that between you and your priest. I also do not feel the situation you describe is necessarily relevant to the situation in the OP; but I won’t discuss that, or any of this, further with you. I don’t think I am smart enough or well educated enough to contribute anything to the conversation. However, as far as my small mind can grasp the position of the Church on this, I agree with Her.

 

[Lynn-D]

AndyF:

[snip]…he gets tempted and gives in to male attraction, he continues in a downward spiral, graces withheld one after another, as the days shine ever brighter and every day is a rosy one assured by satan’s hands off policy when things are looking good and he has someone where he has him. Finally, one additional slight to God must be the final end, and he submits to a sex change.

At this point the demon is laughing, because the person now must proceed to the reception of any Sacrament in this distorted form evidence of his allegiance to evil agreed to. He/She will try to marry, again, the compounding hurts God one more time. But this time he is unaware that it is not a Sacrament he is receiving, but a sanction by demons, as this is an occult ritual, as Christ would not preside over such an abomination.

Andy

I find your statement to be the abmomination. To accuse a Catholic Christian to be in league with the devil is just that and then to go further by saying all she might do is sanctioned by the evil one is the most unchristian thing I have ever heard. How dare you?
I will ask God in my prayers to forgive you even though I must admit I will have a hard time finding heartfelt forgiveness for you myself.
Lynn-D

 

[Lynn-D]

BlindSheep:

Lynn-D -
I don’t really know what you are talking about. When you say “gnomes” I assume it’s a typo and you meant “genomes”? So what you are saying is your brain actually has a different genetic code than the rest of your body? Or that you are genetically female, and were born with male genetalia?

In many research circles genomes is often simply abbreviated to gnomes. It is I suppose a matter of semantics. I use the shortened word and perhaps I should not and be more clear. Perhaps I should also have mentioned autosomes.
The actual research is showing the hypothalamus of the male to female transsexual, (and also lately in the opposite for the FtM), stria terminalis (BSTc), is the same as other born females and not at all in tune with males of any kind whether they be heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, transgendered or otherwise. The TS brain is indicated to be biologically the wrong brain sexually for the body it is housed in.
Here are links that might help you understand further:

genomebiology.com/researchnews/default.asp?arx_id=gb-spotlight-20040203-01

symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Lynn-D

 

[BlindSheep]

In that case, I suppose it is possible that the moral implications of surgery could be different for someone with such a condition; but then again, I’m not the pope. Would I would need to be certain that such surgery was not immoral in this type of case would be some sort of document from the magisterium.

Lynn-D:

In many research circles genomes is often simply abbreviated to gnomes. It is I suppose a matter of semantics. I use the shortened word and perhaps I should not and be more clear. Perhaps I should also have mentioned autosomes.

The actual research is showing the hypothalamus of the male to female transsexual, (and also lately in the opposite for the FtM), stria terminalis (BSTc), is the same as other born females and not at all in tune with males of any kind whether they be heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, transgendered or otherwise. The TS brain is indicated to be biologically the wrong brain sexually for the body it is housed in.
Here are links that might help you understand further:

genomebiology.com/researchnews/default.asp?arx_id=gb-spotlight-20040203-01

symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Lynn-D

 

[Lynn-D]

BlindSheep:

In that case, I suppose it is possible that the moral implications of surgery could be different for someone with such a condition; but then again, I’m not the pope. Would I would need to be certain that such surgery was not immoral in this type of case would be some sort of document from the magisterium.

Perhaps it might help to know that at one time The Catholic Church did allow changes in baptismal certificates for those like me as my certificate is clear evidence. That would be an indication that it was not considered immoral then.
I have been told by a priest that the reason why the approval was later secretly revoked was because of the transgenders making claims that they too should be able to have the same changes made. They did not have reassignment surgery and called themselves, ‘non-ops’. That is totally ridiculous of course and as far as I and many others who did have the surgery are concerned these people are simply transgenderists grabbing onto the true transsexuals medical plight so they might advance their fetishism.
It is not hard to understand the difficulty The Catholic Church faced when these same fetishists had the backing of their own governments, (the UK for one), in laws passed. It is idiocy to give a physical male legal documentation that he is female. The church obviously put up a barrier to thwart the barrage of phonies. I only wish the barrier had been more selective and not so wide in scope. I think it addressed the political issue rather than the moral.
There are quite a few who are stating their position in regard to actual transsexuals being not at all like the transgendered, people such as Rev. Pat Robinson, Dennis Prager, the Jewish radio host, and add on to that a few of the Arab governments one of which is Iran. Of course many Catholic Clergy know the difference but are not eager to oppose even secret Church dictates.
I do thank you for at least having an open mind.
Lynn-D

 

[BlindSheep]

Lynn-D:

Perhaps it might help to know that at one time The Catholic Church did allow changes in baptismal certificates for those like me as my certificate is clear evidence. That would be an indication that it was not considered immoral then.

I would be wary of drawing such a conclusion based on this alone. An example of a baptismal certificate being changed, after the fact, is not the same thing as a public statement of the moral acceptablility of such a procedure; there seems to be a lot of disagreement even at the top levels of Church hierarchy, which makes me hesitant to consider something the “official” stance of the Church unless it is explicitly so. My concern is whether a subjective “feeling” of being masculine or feminine, or some aspect of personality or cognition which is seen as more typically belonging to the opposite gender, or a homosexual orientation, would be considered an acceptable basis for such surgery. Certainly if a person cannot be clearly defined as male or female in the first place, that changes the issue; but then it is necessary to have a specific definition of who would fall into each category - as it stands now, it seems like a slippery slope. The point I was making about a tall woman was that a person can have attributes more common in the opposite sex, and still be healthy (by healthy I mean not only not sick, but not deformed) and still be unambiguously of a particular sex.

 

[AndyF]

Lynn-D:

Forget the medical term??? I have no idea of what you are talking about and most assuredly can never see your point as being boni-fide. Maybe you are saying that people born with a medically described condition could be treated. Yes??? Guess what? I did just that!

For starters you are taking this much too personal.

There are so many variables,cases every one calling for a different personal study and study by professionals. My post describes a hypothetical individual who some may identify with. My not hitting a given individual’s exact case doesn’t mean there are none out there where this case doesn’t apply, and there are.

Oh, Oh!. I just read your jab. :tsktsk:

Have a good day.

Andy

 

[AndyF]

aspawloski4th:

Youv’e gotta be kidding me! that a tweaked version of the :devil made me do it" what next? The Holy See wouldnt even agree with this.This line of thinking sounds more like Calvinistic puritan thinking more than Catholic thinking to me.that mind set would get more souls to Hell by keeping someone the sex they are born with but cant live with through the suicide it would cause, or for other who dont commit suicide but do other self destructive behavior because they cant live with thier sexual identity.Just wondering about that statement you made that I quoted and replied to, what bishop or Vatican official said that? if no church official said that, the nextime you speak on this subject with ideas like that please dont imply you are speaking for the church or most Catholics.Statements like that give Catholics a bad name more than I or most people I know are willing to deal with.

ASpawloskie4th:

:devil made me do it"

I don’t undersand. The devil doesn’t make you do anything?

statement you made that I quoted and replied to, what bishop or Vatican official said that?

Perhaps you can refresh my memory?

Statements like that give Catholics a bad name

True Catholics have nothing to fear from what I say, and if you mean I should refrain from helping people by remaining politically correct, then you’ll wait a long time.

Andy

 

[AndyF]

Lynn-D:

Don’t ask for prayers on my behalf, that would be hypocritical, but please mention that in your charitable Christian way you called me a bigot.

I will have a hard time finding heartfelt forgiveness for you myself.

Well, I think your Church will tell you you can’t get to heaven with having someone unforgiven on your soul, and since I’m being probed for Dogma by some, you didn’t hear that one from me either.

To accuse a Catholic Christian to be in league with the devil …

You identify with the hypothetical I posted. Why? If it’s not “you”, why do you insist that it is you.?

And frankly in a sense we are in league when we agree to sin, as this is choosing the creature as master. Until we attain that righteous state, we are on a rung of a ladder, and on occasion we slip only to once again make that effort.

she might do is sanctioned by the evil one is the most unchristian thing I have ever heard. How dare you?

I described a hypothetical in which one who’s state is conditioned to habitual sin, uses that state for an excuse to disfigure his/her body, there could arise a case where in the reception of a Sacrament it could cause sin compounding. That is true, and the Church would not allow me to retract it.

In fact you supported my argument in words to that effect to another poster.

If ever your game for a collected subjective dialogue, let me known.

Andy

 

[Lynn-D]

AndyF:

Lynn-D:

Don’t ask for prayers on my behalf, that would be hypocritical, but please mention that in your charitable Christian way you called me a bigot.
Well, I think your Church will tell you you can’t get to heaven with having someone unforgiven on your soul, and since I’m being probed for Dogma by some, you didn’t hear that one from me either.
You identify with the hypothetical I posted. Why? If it’s not “you”, why do you insist that it is you.?
And frankly in a sense we are in league when we agree to sin, as this is choosing the creature as master. Until we attain that righteous state, we are on a rung of a ladder, and on occasion we slip only to once again make that effort.
I described a hypothetical in which one who’s state is conditioned to habitual sin, uses that state for an excuse to disfigure his/her body, there could arise a case where in the reception of a Sacrament it could cause sin compounding. That is true, and the Church would not allow me to retract it.
In fact you supported my argument in words to that effect to another poster.

Andy

Well now!!! For the first time your argument is presented as a hypothetical and an abstract dogma. How easy to run to that cover.
I have never, repeat never, agreed to sin. I do not live in sin. In fact I am at this moment in a state of grace according to Catholic doctrine. I can walk into any Catholic Church and receive the sacraments without guilt. I feel comforted in the presense of Jesus, not turned away from Him.
You talk in tongues much like a bigot so forgive me for reacting to that dialogue. Not an accusation, simply a reasonable and not so damning an assumption measured in reflection of your comments.
Now you make your case a hypothetical yet you decry my argument when I saw it as what it seemed to be before the advent of your claim of hypothetical came into play, - an attack upon my person and what I am.
You have no right to accuse me or anyone of having sinned. Find me a section in the bible where I might find your rational to be founded. For anyone to act in God’s name in judgment of another is in itself sinful. I can find that in the bible!
How did I support anything you might have said? If I did I must have been distracted. I consider most of what you say to be less than keeping with the love and teachings taught and expressed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
I am a fool for joining in this ridiculous debate. It is folly and serves no Godly purpose.
Lynn-D

 

[AndyF]

Lynn-D:

You didn’t answer my question. Why do you make yourself the subject of my post if the shoe doesn’t fit as you claim?

I have never, repeat never, agreed to sin. I do not live in sin

Well, that would make you unique in this world as we agree to sin when we sin through free choice, but that is food for another debate.

I am at this moment in a state of grace according to Catholic doctrine. I can walk into any Catholic Church and receive the sacraments without guilt. I feel comforted in the presense of Jesus, not turned away from Him.

Good for you.

For the first time your argument is presented as a hypothetical

No, and you know it. Another would be if I said unforgiven people go to hell, and suddenly 2 feeling in that position would object and state I was talking about them. Perhaps I am, how should I know. If I managed to save both, then I can take the whipping.

You talk in tongues much like a bigot so forgive me for reacting to that dialogue. Not an accusation, simply a reasonable and not so damning an assumption measured in reflection of your comments.

So now I’m sort of a pseudo bigot and I’m to forgive you?. (Apology with an excuse). Not one of those nasty bigots we all hear about, but one of those sorta watered down ones.

OK, your forgiven.

For what it’s worth, I can back up what I say from sources of the Deposit of the Faith and Dogma, but you didn’t give me that chance. Instead of being inquisitive and giving me the benefit of the doubt, you came out mud slinging.

you have no right to accuse me or anyone of having sinned.

And where did I do that?

For anyone to act in God’s name in judgment of another is in itself sinful.

I can find that in the bible!

If your really calling it what it is, then fraternal correction you can certainly find in the Bible.

How did I support anything you might have said?

Not fair, gotta answer mine first.:tsktsk:

I am a fool for joining in this ridiculous debate. It is folly and serves no Godly purpose.

That would be our loss and it does certainly serve a good purpose.

Andy

 

[Lynn-D]

I suggest you go back and read your post #124. It is a diatribe of nonsense and condemnation. To argue in answer to it is a waste of time in the least.:banghead:
Lynn-D

 

[Guar_Fan]

AndyF:

There are cases of children being born with male/female combination genitalia for whatever reason, and even adults.(forget the medical term for this.) These cases can usually be traced to a bona-fide time in their lives where something was medically wrong. There is a therapy to get these unfortunate people on the correct sexual track, and this is commended.

The recommended course, learned the hard way after decades of doctors choosing for the patient, is to let each intersexed child decide for themself which gender they belong to.

Transsexualism is different from intersex conditions. But I agree with the principle of letting each individual declare their gender. Who would know better?

 

[Guar_Fan]

AndyF:

Lynn-D:
For starters you are taking this much too personal.

Andy, of course she is taking this personal! For you and me, this thread is just another topic related to faith. But this subject affects her directly.

Its a situation that calls for a little more compassion on our parts, and a lot less arm-chair theorizing.