New liturgy & Standing at the consecration?

[ConstantineTG]

the usccb ruled that kneeling during the consecration is the norm for posture during this part of the mass. No exceptions.

There are exceptions like space and if there are too many people, like outdoor Papal Masses.

 

[Corki]

Yes, it is universal in the sense that most of the 6 Rites across most of the 22 sui juris Churches use standing as the norm. And even in the Latin Rite we see standing as an option depending on the given circumstance. If that does not define what universal norm is, I don’t know what does

Gee, did this post drift over to the Eastern Catholic forum? Universal norms are set out in documents - in this case, it’s the GIRM. The universal norn for the Latin Church is kneeling for the Consecration.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Gee, did this post drift over to the Eastern Catholic forum? Universal norms are set out in documents - in this case, it’s the GIRM. The universal norn for the Latin Church is kneeling for the Consecration.

I’m just being obsessive-complusive about the term “universal”. Because when one says universal, to me I always think about the entire Church, not just one Rite or one sui juris Church.

 

[jmcrae]

When in Rome…

I am surprised at some of these comments. No posture will ever be good enough for Jesus and each posture has its significance. People seem to obsess over the postures, even calling our bishops corrupt. This is truly sad. The GIRM says do what your priest says. Let’s practice some obedience for once!

Higher authority gets higher obedience. When two authorities are in conflict, obey the higher authority. The Pope wants us to kneel at the Consecration. Therefore, even if the Bishop wants us to stand, we kneel in obedience to the Pope, because of the two, the Pope is the higher authority.

 

[PJM]

=jmcrae;6920802]Higher authority gets higher obedience. When two authorities are in conflict, obey the higher authority. The Pope wants us to kneel at the Consecration. Therefore, even if the Bishop wants us to stand, we kneel in obedience to the Pope, because of the two, the Pope is the higher authority.

his is excellent advise.

Always do what is RIGHT; putting in second palce those “with might.”

Use a bit of common senses. THIS IS REALLY, TRULY, AND SUBSTANUALLY OUR GOD. THE VERY GOD WHO CREATED US.

Please let us our actions support our belief!

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[ConstantineTG]

Higher authority gets higher obedience. When two authorities are in conflict, obey the higher authority. The Pope wants us to kneel at the Consecration. Therefore, even if the Bishop wants us to stand, we kneel in obedience to the Pope, because of the two, the Pope is the higher authority.

The intention and idea of the post is correct, but the wording I believe is not. Pastoraly we are under our Bishops and thus we cannot claim to be in communion with the Pope if we are not in communion with our Bishop. So people cannot keep bypassing their Bishop and claim allegiance to the Pope alone. There are distinctions about which each diocesan Bishop has authority on, and which falls on the authority of the Pope as the visible head of the Church. So we don’t always refer to the Pope if the Pope and our local Bishop would disagree on a matter. Both of them have authority proper to them, and thus we should follow whose proper authority it is on a given matter.

But in the situation that is being discussed, we should follow the Pope because directions on Mass come from the Pope’s Congregation on Divine Worship. There are sections within the documents of the CDW where it states if the local ordinary has authority to make a decision or change. Otherwise, the authority is left to the authority of the Pope and/or College of Cardinals.

 

[Vico]

Higher authority gets higher obedience. When two authorities are in conflict, obey the higher authority. The Pope wants us to kneel at the Consecration. Therefore, even if the Bishop wants us to stand, we kneel in obedience to the Pope, because of the two, the Pope is the higher authority.

There is no conflict, the Holy See has approved the GIRM, so it is correct to follow that, which also specifies using the decision about kneeling for the Agnes Dei, from the bishop, and for unified gestures (according to the Missal) from the deacon, lay minister, or priest *.

And for the USA, the exception to kneeling is provided as: “except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason”, we should obey our bishop, as following his instruction is “some other good reason”. So the Pope gives us (in the USA) permission to follow our bishops instructions on kneeling during consecration. The Pope has approved uniformity.

• GIRM 43 (2002) “With a view to a** uniformity** in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

 

[Sungmoon1987]

I am in Thailand so it’s difficult for me to state rules relating to your particular diocese. However, in any case with regard to liturgical rules, there are two set of rules which we can follow. The two rules either come from Canon Law by Rome itself, and then where Rome permits freedom of the Bishops to state specific rules to each diocese.

But in the case which you are stating, that is kneeling or standing during Consecration; you are permitted freedom as stated in Canon Law. What does this mean? It means that the Bishops can decide whether you should stand, sit or kneel; however Rome (which has authority over the Bishops) has stated that if the congregation or any individual wishes to show respect by kneeling, then he/she may kneel.

Just because there are no kneelers in the parish or cathedral does not mean that you must’nt kneel; it means use the bare floor if you have to.

My congregation aswell as myself always kneel during consecration (yes, we have kneelers), but during communion many receive the Holy Eucharist and return to their seats and sit on the chair; a very few (including myself) will kneel until the final person has received communion. The choice is yours.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am in Thailand so it’s difficult for me to state rules relating to your particular diocese. However, in any case with regard to liturgical rules, there are two set of rules which we can follow. The two rules either come from Canon Law by Rome itself, and then where Rome permits freedom of the Bishops to state specific rules to each diocese.

But in the case which you are stating, that is kneeling or standing during Consecration; you are permitted freedom as stated in Canon Law. What does this mean? It means that the Bishops can decide whether you should stand, sit or kneel; however Rome (which has authority over the Bishops) has stated that if the congregation or any individual wishes to show respect by kneeling, then he/she may kneel.

Just because there are no kneelers in the parish or cathedral does not mean that you must’nt kneel; it means use the bare floor if you have to.

My congregation aswell as myself always kneel during consecration (yes, we have kneelers), but during communion many receive the Holy Eucharist and return to their seats and sit on the chair; a very few (including myself) will kneel until the final person has received communion. The choice is yours.

The GIRM would dictate the rubrics of the OF Mass, not Canon Law.

 

[laszlo]

if there are no kneelers, then its only logical to have everyone remaining standing. as with the Mass being celebrated elsewhere like in an open area or a stadium, there are no kneelers, thus everyone is expected to stand instead of kneel

as Mark said, there’s nothing wrong with standing. its the age old posture of respect in the Church and that most, if not all of the 5 other Rites of the Church stand instead of kneel for Consecration.

The wrong is the explicit disobedience to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. Also it is wrong to build new Churches w/o kneelers for the same reason.

For occasional outside Masses the exception may give excuse from the rule, but only as temporary individual exception.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The intention and idea of the post is correct, but the wording I believe is not. Pastoraly we are under our Bishops and thus we cannot claim to be in communion with the Pope if we are not in communion with our Bishop. So people cannot keep bypassing their Bishop and claim allegiance to the Pope alone. There are distinctions about which each diocesan Bishop has authority on, and which falls on the authority of the Pope as the visible head of the Church. So we don’t always refer to the Pope if the Pope and our local Bishop would disagree on a matter. Both of them have authority proper to them, and thus we should follow whose proper authority it is on a given matter.

But in the situation that is being discussed, we should follow the Pope because directions on Mass come from the Pope’s Congregation on Divine Worship. There are sections within the documents of the CDW where it states if the local ordinary has authority to make a decision or change. Otherwise, the authority is left to the authority of the Pope and/or College of Cardinals.

I think you meant to end this with Pope and/or CDW. The College of Cardinals only purpose is the election of the Pope. A cardinal may be a member of one of the curial congregation but not all are.

 

[JHow]

I realize this is an old-ish thread, but yesterday before mass, our pastor made a point to say that we should all kneel during the consecration. I didn’t understand exactly what precipitated this - he related a story about one of our deacons receiving an email from some source (is there a liturgal commission or council somewhere? I didn’t catch the name of this body) and that he (the pastor) had followed up with his own emails and gotten clarification that the congregation should also be kneeling (I gathered that deacons were supposed to kneel, but there was no deacon present yesterday morning) during consecration. Previously, people had either been standing or kneeling (most standing, fewer kneeling). I should add that our pastor is new (new to us, anyway - the old one recently retired this summer). The pastor also mentioned that: “You probably have heard that there are some changes coming to the liturgy next year, and that kneeling is consistent with these changes…”

I appreciated that the pastor made a point to clarify this for everyone. It is good that we are trying to get on the same sheet of music (so to speak).

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think you meant to end this with Pope and/or CDW. The College of Cardinals only purpose is the election of the Pope. A cardinal may be a member of one of the curial congregation but not all are.

Isn’t the CDW an office of the Pope, therefore it speaks for the Pope?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I realize this is an old-ish thread, but yesterday before mass, our pastor made a point to say that we should all kneel during the consecration. I didn’t understand exactly what precipitated this - he related a story about one of our deacons receiving an email from some source (is there a liturgal commission or council somewhere? I didn’t catch the name of this body) and that he (the pastor) had followed up with his own emails and gotten clarification that the congregation should also be kneeling (I gathered that deacons were supposed to kneel, but there was no deacon present yesterday morning) during consecration. Previously, people had either been standing or kneeling (most standing, fewer kneeling). I should add that our pastor is new (new to us, anyway - the old one recently retired this summer). The pastor also mentioned that: “You probably have heard that there are some changes coming to the liturgy next year, and that kneeling is consistent with these changes…”

I appreciated that the pastor made a point to clarify this for everyone. It is good that we are trying to get on the same sheet of music (so to speak).

Awesome. The deacon may be in contact with the Liturgical commission of the diocese.

 

[Vico]

Isn’t the CDW an office of the Pope, therefore it speaks for the Pope?

Details about the Roman Curia are in Christus Dominus (1965):

“9. In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors.”

Departments of the Roman Curia are given here on the Vatican website:
vatican.va/roman_curia/

 

[CATHOLIC_BIKER]

It would be nice if the Pope was a CAF member so he could chime in.

 

[Tom_Graves]

I realize this is an old-ish thread, but yesterday before mass, our pastor made a point to say that we should all kneel during the consecration. I didn’t understand exactly what precipitated this - he related a story about one of our deacons receiving an email from some source (is there a liturgal commission or council somewhere? I didn’t catch the name of this body) and that he (the pastor) had followed up with his own emails and gotten clarification that the congregation should also be kneeling (I gathered that deacons were supposed to kneel, but there was no deacon present yesterday morning) during consecration. Previously, people had either been standing or kneeling (most standing, fewer kneeling). I should add that our pastor is new (new to us, anyway - the old one recently retired this summer). The pastor also mentioned that: “You probably have heard that there are some changes coming to the liturgy next year, and that kneeling is consistent with these changes…”

I appreciated that the pastor made a point to clarify this for everyone. It is good that we are trying to get on the same sheet of music (so to speak).

 

[Tom_Graves]

Hello, Regarding kneeling during the consecration of the mass I have two comments. A few years afo the Bishop of Pueblo Diocease published an edict that all parishioners in his diocease would begin standing during the consecration of the mass only to have to reverse himself after about two or so years because the National Conference of Catholic Bishops voted that change in the rubric of the mass down and said kneeling would be the correct posture during the consecration. The second thing I would like to pass along is my last two visits to Seattle, WA where I attended Sunday mass in two different and relatively recently constructed Catholic churches. Neither of these new churches had pews wirh kneelers! Shame on us. Tom Graves

 

[Acolythus_sum]

Then come on up to Bellingham, WA! Both parishes in town have kneelers! (well, even if the church didn’t have kneelers, I’d kneel…)