New liturgy & Standing at the consecration?

[choy]

Well for me all I can say as far as the New GIRM [edited] remove any notion of reverence from the Mass. This is a big thorn in my side.

Does Novus Ordo mean would should change every fragment of the Mass so it eradicates anything that remotely takes on any tidbit of resemblance of the TLM even in the smallest of sense.

Gee; I wonder if Almighty God (Jesus) appeared in physical human form during the consecration of the Eucharist. Who in their audacity has the right to stand before Almighty God. Another example of Reverence going right out the window. I really get ticked off over this issue where standing replaces kneeling during consecration. You can be damned sure Satan has placed his strong influence in this one. No reverence at Mass and you discourage the faithful. No wonder we see the Catholic Church in a crisis today.

i really have a problem why people insist that standing is irreverent. Eastern Catholics mostly, if not all, do not kneel during Sundays. i have been to a Chaldean Mass and people stand. when they enter the church they get to their pew. they stand for a few moments to say a prayer. during Consecration, everyone is standing. after receiving, people return to their pews and remain standing until the end of the distribution of Communion. some do elect to sit as soon as their prayers are done. but generally, people stand as long as we Latin Rite Catholics kneel during Communion.

now, i don’t have anything against kneeling, just to make that clear before people start throwing around unsubstantiated accusations. my point here is, i wish people look around first and see what is being done in the entire Church before they open their mouths and start condemning those who validly and respectfully have the practice in question. besides, how can something be disrespectful in one Rite then suddenly be respectful in another? that doesn’t make sense at all. its either respectful or it isn’t.

 

[roadsend]

Standing is not per se irreverent or disrespectful, but in the Latin Rite it can be disobedient.
If a the folks who run a parish are so impoverished (or inconsiderate) as not to provide kneelers for those who attend Mass, I suppose each individual needs to make his own call.
I will not be bullied into standing by some modernist, even if he be the presider.

 

[LORELLA]

ALL THE MORE, WE SHOULD BE KNEELING, NEVER MIND STANDING!

HOW BEAUTIFUL IT IS TO KNEEL. WE SHOULD ALSO BE KNEELING DURING OUR PRAYER TIMES TOO : )

I LIKE IT BETTER WHEN I KNEEL : )

I AM NOT AGAISNT STANDING BUT I BELIEVE THERE IS A TIME AND PLACE FOR EVERYTHING. SO WHEN IT IS TIME TO KNEEL, IT IS TIME TO KNEEL!

GOD BLESS : )

 

[jmcrae]

i really have a problem why people insist that standing is irreverent.

In the West, standing signifies equality. We stand for those who have temporal authority over us, but who in every other way are equal to us. (ie: the Queen, the President, your mother, your priest, etc.) Jesus obviously does not fall into that category - Jesus did not become God by an accident of birth; nor is His divinity something that even the lowliest subject could aspire to. Jesus’ Divinity sets Him apart; therefore, we kneel in His presence.

Eastern Catholics mostly, if not all, do not kneel during Sundays. i have been to a Chaldean Mass and people stand. when they enter the church they get to their pew. they stand for a few moments to say a prayer. during Consecration, everyone is standing. after receiving, people return to their pews and remain standing until the end of the distribution of Communion. some do elect to sit as soon as their prayers are done. but generally, people stand as long as we Latin Rite Catholics kneel during Communion.

Standing has a different significance in the East - you can stand for the Divine, because it doesn’t signify equality.

how can something be disrespectful in one Rite then suddenly be respectful in another?

Because of the cultural difference in the meaning of the act.

 

[choy]

In the West, standing signifies equality. We stand for those who have temporal authority over us, but who in every other way are equal to us. (ie: the Queen, the President, your mother, your priest, etc.) Jesus obviously does not fall into that category - Jesus did not become God by an accident of birth; nor is His divinity something that even the lowliest subject could aspire to. Jesus’ Divinity sets Him apart; therefore, we kneel in His presence.

Standing has a different significance in the East - you can stand for the Divine, because it doesn’t signify equality.

Because of the cultural difference in the meaning of the act.

honestly, how many people appreciate this significance of kneeling?

again, i’m not saying that we shouldn’t kneel. i would kneel. i’m just saying, lets not say standing is irreverent because there are people out there who stand out of respect.

 

[choy]

Standing is not per se irreverent or disrespectful, but in the Latin Rite it can be disobedient.
If a the folks who run a parish are so impoverished (or inconsiderate) as not to provide kneelers for those who attend Mass, I suppose each individual needs to make his own call.
I will not be bullied into standing by some modernist, even if he be the presider.

the point of my post was, that we shouldn’t call people who stand irreverent. because there are those who do stand our of reverence. what we do as Latin Catholics is besides the point. i’m not going to encourage standing within our traditions either. its for the bishops to decide what is appropriate. but we shouldn’t be saying one thing that has implications against other believers in the entire Church

 

[jmcrae]

honestly, how many people appreciate this significance of kneeling?

Just about everyone. Even those who abhor kneeling say that it is “too holy.” Even they understand that standing is a less holy action than kneeling. They would say that standing is better because it makes Jesus to be our friend and equal, instead of someone set apart that we can’t relate to.

again, i’m not saying that we shouldn’t kneel. i would kneel. i’m just saying, lets not say standing is irreverent because there are people out there who stand out of respect.

Right. But isn’t God Himself owed a bit more than just “respect”?

 

[MarkThompson]

Just about everyone. Even those who abhor kneeling say that it is “too holy.”

I’m legitimately (i.e., not sarcastically) interested to know if there is anyone you’re aware of who has objected to kneeling because it is, quote, “too holy.” I hear this type of thing all the time by way of criticizing others’ motives (e.g., “People tore out communion rails because they were too reverent”), but I’ve never seen a genuine quotation from someone saying they did such a thing because it was too holy or too reverent.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m legitimately (i.e., not sarcastically) interested to know if there is anyone you’re aware of who has objected to kneeling because it is, quote, “too holy.” I hear this type of thing all the time by way of criticizing others’ motives (e.g., “People tore out communion rails because they were too reverent”), but I’ve never seen a genuine quotation from someone saying they did such a thing because it was too holy or too reverent.

It’s what I have heard some people say, at my parish. I don’t know if they would want their names in print. I have also had people warn me not to be “too holy” Ie: be seen to kneel in Church) in case I scare off the kids.

 

[choy]

Just about everyone. Even those who abhor kneeling say that it is “too holy.” Even they understand that standing is a less holy action than kneeling. They would say that standing is better because it makes Jesus to be our friend and equal, instead of someone set apart that we can’t relate to.

but didn’t Jesus become human so that we can relate to Him and He can relate to us? God wants to take part in our humanity. not that its the entirety of who Jesus is, just don’t forget that aspect

Right. But isn’t God Himself owed a bit more than just “respect”?

of course! but what is more respect? each culture would have a different way of showing respect. most people here wouldn’t think bowing is reverent enough, but tell that to a Japanese man. kneeling is reverent in the Latin tradition, but we all did not grow up in the Roman empire. perhaps Western Europe and North America may have some appreciation of this practice. but not everyone around the world. in the Philippines, i don’t think we kneel for anything but prayer. but i would guess most people don’t see kneeling as a sign of respect but rather a posture of prayer

 

[jmcrae]

but didn’t Jesus become human so that we can relate to Him and He can relate to us? God wants to take part in our humanity. not that its the entirety of who Jesus is, just don’t forget that aspect

We don’t; we stand at the Gospel - which is the perfect moment of the Mass to remember His humanity.

of course! but what is more respect?

I didn’t say “more respect” - I said “more than” - meaning, something added.

each culture would have a different way of showing respect. most people here wouldn’t think bowing is reverent enough, but tell that to a Japanese man. kneeling is reverent in the Latin tradition, but we all did not grow up in the Roman empire. perhaps Western Europe and North America may have some appreciation of this practice. but not everyone around the world. in the Philippines, i don’t think we kneel for anything but prayer. but i would guess most people don’t see kneeling as a sign of respect but rather a posture of prayer

Right - and it’s that posture of prayer that tells us that what we are encountering at the Consecration is God. Not merely a superman.

 

[johnnykins]

if there are no kneelers, then its only logical to have everyone remaining standing. as with the Mass being celebrated elsewhere like in an open area or a stadium, there are no kneelers, thus everyone is expected to stand instead of kneel

as Mark said, there’s nothing wrong with standing. its the age old posture of respect in the Church and that most, if not all of the 5 other Rites of the Church stand instead of kneel for Consecration.

Who says you need kneelers to kneel? You don’t need to kneel if prevented for some good reason - but I fail to see lack of kneelers as pertinent in any way. Kneel on the floor if there is room. If not - OK, don’t.

Personally I cannot imagine a daily Mass without the room to kneel - but hope springs eternal for such crowds!

 

[johnnykins]

i really have a problem why people insist that standing is irreverent.

But it is if the posture called for is kneeling!

Eastern Catholics mostly, if not all, do not kneel during Sundays. i have been to a Chaldean Mass and people stand. when they enter the church they get to their pew. they stand for a few moments to say a prayer. during Consecration, everyone is standing. after receiving, people return to their pews and remain standing until the end of the distribution of Communion. some do elect to sit as soon as their prayers are done. but generally, people stand as long as we Latin Rite Catholics kneel during Communion.

and those rites have their own rubrics which call for standing - so kneeling would be irreverent in those settings

now, i don’t have anything against kneeling, just to make that clear before people start throwing around unsubstantiated accusations. my point here is, i wish people look around first and see what is being done in the entire Church before they open their mouths and start condemning those who validly and respectfully have the practice in question.

All I have seen is people condemning illeceity - and not liking certain other practices. Nothing wrong with either of those.

besides, how can something be disrespectful in one Rite then suddenly be respectful in another? that doesn’t make sense at all. its either respectful or it isn’t.

It all depends on the applicable rubrics. Very simple concept.

 

[johnnykins]

honestly, how many people appreciate this significance of kneeling?

looks like a whole bunch here!

again, i’m not saying that we shouldn’t kneel. i would kneel. i’m just saying, lets not say standing is irreverent because there are people out there who stand out of respect.

If that is indeed all you are saying - sure! I just think there is more at work here! Sorry.

 

[johnnykins]

but didn’t Jesus become human so that we can relate to Him and He can relate to us?

Hmmmmm…I don’t think God needed to become human to relate to us. Bad theology there. He’s God after all!

God wants to take part in our humanity. not that its the entirety of who Jesus is, just don’t forget that aspect

Oohhhhh… getting awfully close to heresy here. Jesus is one person who is fully God and fully man. He has two natures, but is one person. Jesus was born a man and while fully God and fully human he is a separate person within the Godhead and fully God as well as the 2nd Person in the Blessed Trinity. You really are treading in deep waters with that somewhat cavalier statement. Happy to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it’s very near a real line.

of course! but what is more respect? each culture would have a different way of showing respect. most people here wouldn’t think bowing is reverent enough, but tell that to a Japanese man. kneeling is reverent in the Latin tradition, but we all did not grow up in the Roman empire. perhaps Western Europe and North America may have some appreciation of this practice. but not everyone around the world. in the Philippines, i don’t think we kneel for anything but prayer. but i would guess most people don’t see kneeling as a sign of respect but rather a posture of prayer

Great - let’s assume a posture of prayer when we adore God at Mass!! All in favor say AYE!!!

 

[Vico]

I can’t seem to find the directives for the people in this document. Especially around consecration time. Would anyone know where I can find this info??

Thanks for this link though - will hang on to this for future reference

Thanks to Phemie for the GIRM link. It says (my highlights):

1. … they may sit or **kneel **while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who** do** not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration,** the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives** according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

 

[choy]

looks like a whole bunch here!

If that is indeed all you are saying - sure! I just think there is more at work here! Sorry.

and its that kind of attitude thats damaging the Church today. that we always supsect something bigger, something sinister. there is a passage in the Bible that addresses this, i just forgot where. but the gist of it is that conspiracy theories are the work of the devil to sow discord

 

[choy]

Who says you need kneelers to kneel? You don’t need to kneel if prevented for some good reason - but I fail to see lack of kneelers as pertinent in any way. Kneel on the floor if there is room. If not - OK, don’t.

Personally I cannot imagine a daily Mass without the room to kneel - but hope springs eternal for such crowds!

what i’ve mentioned is in the GIRM. so who said it? the GIRM

you can’t expect everyone to be able to tolerate the hard floor with their knees. even well trained athletes would have knee pain. i know, i used to be very active, and i am able to kneel now that i’m don’t play sports anymore, whan when i was 50 pounds lighter and more physically active. i played basketball so its really torture on the knees.

 

[choy]

We don’t; we stand at the Gospel - which is the perfect moment of the Mass to remember His humanity.

I didn’t say “more respect” - I said “more than” - meaning, something added.

Right - and it’s that posture of prayer that tells us that what we are encountering at the Consecration is God. Not merely a superman.

my point was, some people tend to see it more as merely a posture of prayer rather than a posture that gives reverence and worship to God

 

[jmcrae]

my point was, some people tend to see it more as merely a posture of prayer rather than a posture that gives reverence and worship to God

Surely a “posture of prayer” signifies deep reverence for the person of God, since (normally) the object of prayer is God. Wouldn’t you think?