New Liturgy

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Lynn_Eileen

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What does everyone think about the new Liturgy which is out later on this year? I feel that it was sprung upon us with not even any consultation with the priests. One could say that if it a deeper expression of worship then it will be wonderful. However the Vatican has not been involved in any consultation with us or the Bishops. This is another example of a big step back from Vatican II which expressed the idea that the church would all move forward together and centralisation would move from the Vatican to the Bishops and the people.
What does anyone think?
 
I’m certainly willing to give it a try, is there a copy on the net or do we have to wait till were doing it to read it?
 
I believe new books are being printed at the moment, which means the Missal books we have now ill have to be replaced.
 
You can read a lot about the changes here:
usccb.org/romanmissal/

This is NOT a step back from Vatican II. It replaces some – only some – of the texts with translations which are more faithful to the Latin.
 
Lynn_Eileen said:
What does everyone think about the new Liturgy which is out later on this year? I feel that it was sprung upon us with not even any consultation with the priests. One could say that if it a deeper expression of worship then it will be wonderful. However the Vatican has not been involved in any consultation with us or the Bishops. This is another example of a big step back from Vatican II which expressed the idea that the church would all move forward together and centralisation would move from the Vatican to the Bishops and the people.
What does anyone think?
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No consultation with the bishops?? They’ve been reviewing this translation for years, voting on each book as it came out. Granted the translators changed some things after the final agreement had been reached in 2008, I’m not sure how much yet.

Why would they consult with the laity on this one? This is something that requires specialized knowledge and I don’t know about you but I don’t know enough Latin to be of any use to ICEL. I could easily say that I prefer what we say now, but if that’s not at all what the Latin says, why should we keep using a flawed translation?

And to be clear, it’s not a new liturgy, it’s a better translation of the Mass. The Mass in any language is a translation of the Latin. This translation will better reflect in English what’s being said in Latin, and French, and Italian and Spanish, and…
 
Lynn_Eileen said:
This is another example of a big step back from Vatican II which expressed the idea that the church would all move forward together and centralisation would move from the Vatican to the Bishops and the people.
Click to expand...
Not so. Vatican II documents on collegiality made it clear that the synods of bishops work under and with the Pope. There is nothing about democracy mentioned. If anything this is moving forward in accordance with those documents.

Next logical step is to restore Latin in the liturgy, at least in part, in accordance with SC.
Phemie said:
Why would they consult with the laity on this one? This is something that requires specialized knowledge and I don’t know about you but I don’t know enough Latin to be of any use to ICEL. I could easily say that I prefer what we say now, but if that’s not at all what the Latin says, why should we keep using a flawed translation?
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Almost any translation will be flawed to some extent. Now they are questioning whether “believe” (as in I believe) should be changed to “trust” as the meaning of “believe” in the English language has changed somewhat. And why not, “credo, credere” could mean “trust.” (As in, In God we trust.) I like to think translations are only educated guesses as to meanings, nothing is 100% accurate.
 
Phemie and Pro Vobis have pretty well covered this so there is little to add…

I probably wouldn’t respond at all except that I had to chuckle at the OP’s saying that it seems like it was “Sprung on us”… and then expresses how this seems like a step back from Vat II.

Some here may remember when the switch was made from the Latin to the English in the mid sixties. I don’t know about how other parishes handled it, but at mine we had Latin one week and then BAM it was English the next.
I remember it so well because I had just finished studying to be a server at the time. I had learned all the Latin, been quizzed by our pastor and approved, and in the short week or two between that and serving my first mass, the change was implemented…
Father obviously did not know or else he would not have been having us learn all the Latin responses. The parishioners certainly did not know, I can still hear the Many voices of surprise and consternation…

So my dear OP. If you feel that this is being “Sprung” on us, I suggest that either you have not been paying attention over the last few years that this has been in the works and we’ve known it was coming, or else you have an uncommon concept of what “sprung on” means.

Peace
James
 
agnes_therese said:
You can read a lot about the changes here:
usccb.org/romanmissal/

This is NOT a step back from Vatican II. It replaces some – only some – of the texts with translations which are more faithful to the Latin.
Click to expand...
To be fair there is little that isn’t being changed, even if some of the changes, such as the Sanctus, are very minor. Of all the things that the congregation says, I think the Lord’s Prayer and the Agnus Dei and the responses during the Liturgy of the Word are the only things that have not changed.
 
JRKH said:
Some here may remember when the switch was made from the Latin to the English in the mid sixties. I don’t know about how other parishes handled it, but at mine we had Latin one week and then BAM it was English the next.
I remember it so well because I had just finished studying to be a server at the time. I had learned all the Latin, been quizzed by our pastor and approved, and in the short week or two between that and serving my first mass, the change was implemented…
Father obviously did not know or else he would not have been having us learn all the Latin responses. The parishioners certainly did not know, I can still hear the Many voices of surprise and consternation…
Click to expand...
One would think that at least they’d preserve the Latin in a place named “Cincinnati.” 😃

(Cincinnatus was a famous Roman.)
 
Lynn_Eileen said:
What does everyone think about the new Liturgy which is out later on this year? I feel that it was sprung upon us with not even any consultation with the priests. One could say that if it a deeper expression of worship then it will be wonderful. However the Vatican has not been involved in any consultation with us or the Bishops. This is another example of a big step back from Vatican II which expressed the idea that the church would all move forward together and centralisation would move from the Vatican to the Bishops and the people.
What does anyone think?
Click to expand...
I think you are looking at this with the wrong attitude.
  1. The main purpose of this translation is to fix the original one. It did not follow the latin text very closely.
  2. The translation has been in the works for quite a while
  3. No offence, but why should the faithful, or even all the priests be consulted? The church is not a democracy.
  4. The bishops are the ones voting on the text! They are most certainly involved.
 
TheMc said:
I think you are looking at this with the wrong attitude.
  1. The main purpose of this translation is to fix the original one. It did not follow the latin text very closely.
  2. The translation has been in the works for quite a while
  3. No offence, but why should the faithful, or even all the priests be consulted? The church is not a democracy.
  4. The bishops are the ones voting on the text! They are most certainly involved.
Click to expand...
👍

After reviewing the translation changes for the Gloria and Sanctus, I think they should be sung in Latin to accommodate the changes better. I find the English translations to be somewhat awkward for singing, especially in the Gloria.
 
Love_Divine said:
👍

After reviewing the translation changes for the Gloria and Sanctus, I think they should be sung in Latin to accommodate the changes better. I find the English translations to be somewhat awkward for singing, especially in the Gloria.
Click to expand...
Ahhh! That was why they did it. I can see the pope scheming now…

Ok, listen Guido. I’ve got this great idea. We make an english translation so awkward to speak that everyone will HAVE TO USE LATIN!! AHHHHAHAHA!!
 
Lynn_Eileen said:
What does everyone think about the new Liturgy which is out later on this year? I feel that it was sprung upon us with not even any consultation with the priests. One could say that if it a deeper expression of worship then it will be wonderful. However the Vatican has not been involved in any consultation with us or the Bishops. This is another example of a big step back from Vatican II which expressed the idea that the church would all move forward together and centralisation would move from the Vatican to the Bishops and the people.
What does anyone think?
Click to expand...
Where did you get the notion that there was no consultation with the Bishops?

Considering the “special” weekend in Detroit that is happeming right now, I’m almost tempted to consider this post as spam.
 
TheMc said:
Ahhh! That was why they did it. I can see the pope scheming now…

Ok, listen Guido. I’ve got this great idea. We make an english translation so awkward to speak that everyone will HAVE TO USE LATIN!! AHHHHAHAHA!!
Click to expand...
It is awkward. I don’t know how Marty Haugan or whatever his name is, plans on revising his Mass of Creation to make it work. Maybe we’ll finally be rid of it. crosses fingers

The text were meant to be sung in Latin, not English. They had to revise the chants to make the English work. I still don’t understand why we had to go and start using the vernacular while the Ukrainian Catholics still have their Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian. 🤷 Sigh Now I’m getting envious of the Ukrainian Catholics here. :o
 
I guess if you’re a person in the pew and people in the know in your parish are complaining about ‘lack of consultation’ you will take it that they are right. I suspect that many of the people who are scared of this are those who’ve had that point of view thrown at them by people they believe and respect.
 
themc said:
ahhh! That was why they did it. I can see the pope scheming now…

ok, listen guido. I’ve got this great idea. We make an english translation so awkward to speak that everyone will have to use latin!! Ahhhhahaha!!
Click to expand...
hah hah hah.

😃
 
Lynn_Eileen said:
I believe new books are being printed at the moment, which means the Missal books we have now ill have to be replaced.
Click to expand...
Indubitably. Even without changes to the liturgy they usually get replaced every year anyway.
 
I am all for the new translation, not that it matters what I think. I have always preferred more literal translations to more dynamic translations for applications like liturgy. Once one adapts to the changes, it brings greater precision.
 
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