New Lutheran -Catholic agreements

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Recently the USCCB [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] released a joint statement on newly agreed theologies and Doctrines.

I’m NOT a theologian but several of the remarks seem to be ME [personally] SHOCKING:eek:

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm

“World-level (Apostolicity of the Church) and national dialogues (Kirchengemeinschaft in Wort und Sakrament and Communio Sanctorum) have asserted that Lutherans and Catholics have profound agreement on the essential role of the means of grace in assembling the church and communicating to its members ever anew a share in God’s saving gifts”.

“The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of baptism, 31 the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin—all as administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament.”

This SEEMS to say cf.“we agree on Sola Scriptura” and that Lutheran’s Do have the Seven Sacraments validly and licitly.

I personally do not see how this is possible outside of the RCC?

What’s your take?

Patrick
 
PJM said:
“The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of baptism, 31 the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin—all as administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament.”

This SEEMS to say cf.“we agree on Sola Scriptura” and that Lutheran’s Do have the Seven Sacraments validly and licitly.

I personally do not see how this is possible outside of the RCC?
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‘The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits’ is a really strange sentence. I’m not sure what it means. I don’t think the agreement necessarily means the Catholic Church believes Lutherans have valid orders. Both could agree sacraments are necessary while having disagreement on the efficacy of the other party’s sacraments.

Regarding seven sacrmamets as another thread makes clear the Lutherans aren’t themselves willing to commit to seven sacrmamets. So it would seem impossible for the Catholic Church to say they have seven valid sacrmamets.

The Orthodox have valid sacraments so it is certainly possible to have valid sacrmamets outside of the RCC.

I wouldn’t fret too much over this statement. The folks working on ecumenism are eager to find common ground where they can. The process seems to me to often result in not pointing out significant or problematic differences. But that doesn’t mean that those differences don’t exist.
 
PJM said:
What’s your take?

Patrick
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In other Cahtolic-Lutheran joint declarations, I’ve seen where a quick reading of it would indicate that Catholic and Lutherans are vouching for each others sacraments and hermeneutics, and that we’re all one around one altar (I pray for that day).

But, if you look really closely, it’s can be like this:

Catholics: Lutherans place a high importance on the Eucharist and the Sacraments.
Lutherans: Catholics are diligent and faithful stewards of the Holy Scriptures.

These documents joyfully recognize the Christ in each other, but they don’t go so far as to pronounce a false full-communion that doesn’t exist at this time. Usually we politely recognize the care and love the other gives to being members of Christ’s Body in our various imperfect ways.

(That said… good luck with dialoging with the ELCA. Lost of shifting sand on the national level in my opinion. )
 
PJM said:
Recently the USCCB [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] released a joint statement on newly agreed theologies and Doctrines.

I’m NOT a theologian but several of the remarks seem to be ME [personally] SHOCKING:eek:

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm

“World-level (Apostolicity of the Church) and national dialogues (Kirchengemeinschaft in Wort und Sakrament and Communio Sanctorum) have asserted that Lutherans and Catholics have profound agreement on the essential role of the means of grace in assembling the church and communicating to its members ever anew a share in God’s saving gifts”.

“The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of baptism, 31 the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin—all as administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament.”

This SEEMS to say cf.“we agree on Sola Scriptura” and that Lutheran’s Do have the Seven Sacraments validly and licitly.

I personally do not see how this is possible outside of the RCC?

What’s your take?

Patrick
Click to expand...
It only mentions the first three , the ones Lutherans accept , maybe the roc recognizes our sacraments but not our rites 🤷 I’m unsure how this applies to sola scriptura .
 
Somethings got to give. There will be no getting around the ordination of women priests. The Orthodox are probably a lot closer overall. Hope to see unity with either church in my lifetime, the world could use it.
 
PJM said:
Recently the USCCB [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] released a joint statement on newly agreed theologies and Doctrines.

I’m NOT a theologian but several of the remarks seem to be ME [personally] SHOCKING:eek:

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm

“World-level (Apostolicity of the Church) and national dialogues (Kirchengemeinschaft in Wort und Sakrament and Communio Sanctorum) have asserted that Lutherans and Catholics have profound agreement on the essential role of the means of grace in assembling the church and communicating to its members ever anew a share in God’s saving gifts”.

“The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of baptism, 31 the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin—all as administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament.”

This SEEMS to say cf.“we agree on Sola Scriptura” and that Lutheran’s Do have the Seven Sacraments validly and licitly.

I personally do not see how this is possible outside of the RCC?

What’s your take?

Patrick
Click to expand...
How can we agree that the gospel is primary when we don’t even agree abou what the gospel even is?

Unfortunately the most communion that’s going to happen are these flimsy “let’s play nice” type of statements.

I actually think it’s better that way anyway. Truth is more important than unity.
 
steido01 said:
What about the ‘old-fashioned’ Lutherans?

firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2013/02/roman-catholics-and-confessional-lutherans-explore-deeper-ties
Click to expand...
This is fantastic - thanks for posting it.

As for this agreement, I share the reservations of others about talking to the ELCA as somehow representative of Lutherans. It would be a huge step forward if confessional Lutherans (and/or Orthodox) and Catholics somehow work through to a “full communion” statement (or thereabouts). I can’t realistically see how that could come to pass, but my guess is it would have a domino effect throughout Christianity - there would be a lot of unifying of traditional Christians. I hope to see something along these lines in my lifetime. I personally feel like it is starting to kind of happen “offline,” mainly through shared values, causes. (de facto unity if you will) (compared to attitudes of 50, 70 years ago for example)
 
FollowChrist34 said:
This is fantastic - thanks for posting it.

As for this agreement, I share the reservations of others about talking to the ELCA as somehow representative of Lutherans. It would be a huge step forward if confessional Lutherans (and/or Orthodox) and Catholics somehow work through to a “full communion” statement (or thereabouts). I can’t realistically see how that could come to pass, but my guess is it would have a domino effect throughout Christianity - there would be a lot of unifying of traditional Christians. I hope to see something along these lines in my lifetime. I personally feel like it is starting to kind of happen “offline,” mainly through shared values, causes. (de facto unity if you will) (compared to attitudes of 50, 70 years ago for example)
Click to expand...
The difference between confessional orthodox Lutherans, and our LWF/ELCA siblings is, Catholics may not like where we confessional orthodox Lutherans stand, but at least you know where we stand. That often isn’t the case with the ELCA.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
The difference between confessional orthodox Lutherans, and our LWF/ELCA siblings is, Catholics may not like where we confessional orthodox Lutherans stand, but at least you know where we stand. That often isn’t the case with the ELCA.

Jon
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Right, I respect confessional Lutherans for honesty and integrity - they are holding historic doctrinal positions - and when I say holding I mean HOLDING…🙂 (I don’t take any of that personally)

I look at the ELCA as much like the Episcopalians. (not to be uncharitable of course) Speaking in terms of doctrine…
 
" I look at the ELCA as much like the Episcopalians. (not to be uncharitable of course) Speaking in terms of doctrine"

You are right on that as both denominations are in full communion with each other
 
There are strong possibilities for ecumenism between Catholics and LCMS Lutherans, but not ELCA, which is the group involved here. For 50 years ELCA (and its prececessor denominations) have been moving far away from traditional Lutheranism, and farther away from Catholicism. ELCA increasingly opposes the Catholic Church on moral issues, such as Prolife, Sanctity of Marriage, and Religious Liberty. Theologically it has also been moving farther apart. The Ordination of Women issue is more like the tip of the iceberg.

All this is minimized, or glossed over, in the glowing report - in fact, many years of glowing reports, which ignore the fact that the Churches are much farther apart now than before.
ELCA promotes this process - that is, not unity itself, but talks about unity - because it gives them “cover” and credibility. They don’t want any real union with the Catholic Church. But maintaining, and publicizing, these talks with the bastion of tradition - RCC - makes it look like they are not so radical after all.

No one really believes that:
  1. progress in discussion about refining the language of justification, as it was understood, or misunderstood, in the 1500s…
----is more important or relevant now than—
  1. ELCA’s position of advocacy for the “right” of abortion, the “right” to gay marriage, and opposition to the Catholic Church, and many Lutherans, on Religious Liberty, Holy Orders, and a host of other issues.
Unfortunately, programs like these talks take on a life of their own. Every report (press release) shows amazing “progress”. Activists lobby hard, especially with the media, to keep the ecumenism funding going, to grant them PR time at conferences, to generate lots of emails to bureaucrats (“Don’t you dare try to stop the progress now!”), and most importantly, to exempt them from any kind of objective evaluation.

It is very difficult and unpopular to terminate an unproductive program. So the talks will continue, with another 50 years of glowing progress reports.
 
PJM said:
Recently the USCCB [United States Conference of Catholic Bishops] released a joint statement on newly agreed theologies and Doctrines.

I’m NOT a theologian but several of the remarks seem to be ME [personally] SHOCKING:eek:

usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm

“World-level (Apostolicity of the Church) and national dialogues (Kirchengemeinschaft in Wort und Sakrament and Communio Sanctorum) have asserted that Lutherans and Catholics have profound agreement on the essential role of the means of grace in assembling the church and communicating to its members ever anew a share in God’s saving gifts”.

“The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among the mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of baptism, 31 the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin—all as administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament.”

This SEEMS to say cf.“we agree on Sola Scriptura” and that Lutheran’s Do have the Seven Sacraments validly and licitly.

I personally do not see how this is possible outside of the RCC?

What’s your take?

Patrick
Click to expand...
This document can be viewed as simply an agreement on what constitutes correct theology and teachings- without necessarily agreeing on who or what constitutes true Church-or who has the right to actually *act *on this theology or these teachings. Agreement is always good when truth isn’t compromised.

I had a problem with #5, where Sacred Tradition, as a source for guiding the Christian faith, seemed to be not merely left out as a point of agreement, but was a bit too conspicuous by it’s absence, especially in light of the commentary that followed in Section III, particularly with the document cited, “Apostolicity of the Church”.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
This is fantastic - thanks for posting it.

As for this agreement, I share the reservations of others about talking to the ELCA as somehow representative of Lutherans. It would be a huge step forward if confessional Lutherans (and/or Orthodox) and Catholics somehow work through to a “full communion” statement (or thereabouts). I can’t realistically see how that could come to pass, but my guess is it would have a domino effect throughout Christianity - there would be a lot of unifying of traditional Christians. I hope to see something along these lines in my lifetime. I personally feel like it is starting to kind of happen “offline,” mainly through shared values, causes. (de facto unity if you will) (compared to attitudes of 50, 70 years ago for example)
Click to expand...
It certainly is more likely than half a century ago. Earlier in October the ILC met with members of the PCPCU.

And now the ILC has issued unified (name removed by moderator)ut regarding From Conflict to Communion, the document currently at the forefront of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues: issuu.com/thelcms/docs/jlm-no5-2015/23
So there’s now a dialogue within (and outside) of an existing dialogue. <That’s huge.
 
steido01 said:
It certainly is more likely than half a century ago. Earlier in October the ILC met with members of the PCPCU.

And now the ILC has issued unified (name removed by moderator)ut regarding From Conflict to Communion, the document currently at the forefront of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues: issuu.com/thelcms/docs/jlm-no5-2015/23
So there’s now a dialogue within (and outside) of an existing dialogue. <That’s huge.
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I am so happy to see this. And I agree - history is history and doctrine is doctrine - we must push forward toward a fair meeting of minds (without a sacrifice of truth) no matter how difficult it is. Cast off resentment, grudges, preserve truth, both sides.

:signofcross:
 
FollowChrist34 said:
As for this agreement, I share the reservations of others about talking to the ELCA as somehow representative of Lutherans.
Click to expand...
That is a danger, I quite agree. But consider: in all the time I have spent on CAF, I don’t think I’ve ever treated the ELCA as being representative of Lutherans … yet I have many, many times seen Lutherans take statements from “traditionalist” Catholics and treat them as representative of Catholics. So is the shoe really on the Catholic foot here, or the Lutheran foot?
 
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