New Lutheran forum

[Psalm89]

Maccabees:

You speak the truth that Luther lovers don’t like to hear.
Luther provided the formula for futher denominations and thousands of denominations later here we are even more confused.

How very anti-Lutheran of you.

Also, Luther knew what the consequence of his ideas would be. That there would be a 1000 new popes instead of one. Due to the corruption in the church at the time he thought that 1000 new popes would be better than the current pope. That is some serious corruption my friend.

The point that I see most Catholics miss about Luther is that he was just one monk that had some ideas and posted some challenges to the RCC. He posted 95 thesis on a door which was common practice.

For some reason, the population immediately took to them and the Reformation was in full sing afterwards. The RCC was in shambles morally at that time, nobody denies this, you can read about in newadvent.com. I did.

I think that at least 50% of the blame for the Church splitting can be put on the people running the church at the time. The general population never would have put up with Luther and his ideas if everything had been just great before he put the thesis up.

People were sick of it, the didn’t respect the clergy and openly mocked the pope in the streets.

Were they all just a bunch of anti-Catholic sinners doomed for hell? If so, why isn’t the same thing going on today against JP2?

I’ll tell you why. Only the most radical fundamentalists hate JP2. He is a good man and a great pope, if he had been running things in Luther’s times the Reformation wouldn’t have happened.

In fact, he probably would have invited Luther to the vatican and counciled him personally, seeing a priest who was troubled about his salvation.

 

[Maccabees]

Psalm89:

How very anti-Lutheran of you.

Also, Luther knew what the consequence of his ideas would be. That there would be a 1000 new popes instead of one. Due to the corruption in the church at the time he thought that 1000 new popes would be better than the current pope. That is some serious corruption my friend.

The point that I see most Catholics miss about Luther is that he was just one monk that had some ideas and posted some challenges to the RCC. He posted 95 thesis on a door which was common practice.

For some reason, the population immediately took to them and the Reformation was in full sing afterwards. The RCC was in shambles morally at that time, nobody denies this, you can read about in newadvent.com. I did.

I think that at least 50% of the blame for the Church splitting can be put on the people running the church at the time. The general population never would have put up with Luther and his ideas if everything had been just great before he put the thesis up.

People were sick of it, the didn’t respect the clergy and openly mocked the pope in the streets.

Were they all just a bunch of anti-Catholic sinners doomed for hell? If so, why isn’t the same thing going on today against JP2?

I’ll tell you why. Only the most radical fundamentalists hate JP2. He is a good man and a great pope, if he had been running things in Luther’s times the Reformation wouldn’t have happened.

In fact, he probably would have invited Luther to the vatican and counciled him personally, seeing a priest who was troubled about his salvation.

I disagree and Luther’s didn’t know there would be thousands of denominations. He thought he would refrom the church he didn’t understand the other reformers and whre they were coming from heck he didn’t think they where christian.
Was the church a mess in Germany. Yes. The church was not a mess in other places that later becaem protestant like England that was a power play by the monarchy for the most part people were happy being catholic in England. Also Germany was split some loved being catholic some were ready for a change. A part of this was nationalism they were tired of Italian Popes taking German money and putting it into the Vatican coffers. OF course some princes wanted to cut deals with Luther like permitting biogomy or divorce. The German princes were also financially motivated to take the church’s property and keep the money they were giving the Vatican and keep it in their state run church.
The degree on how most everyday people wanted to break from Luterh is debateable witness the peasants who still loved their catholic faith. We do know the German princes loved Luther and he had a great following in wittenberg but I wouldn’t say it was a mass revolt by the common man as has been potrayed.
Were the Popes at the beginning of Lutehr’s protest corrupt yes.
But there were better Popes later and Luther was to violatile to negotiate with. We will never know what would happen between John Paul 2 and Luther. But as great as the man is he hasn’t been able to bring back one Orthodox church into his fold despite his ecunemical leadership. I beleive the Pope would be open to entertain Luther on many of his 95 thesis but he wouldn’t have adapted sola scriptura and sola fide. This Pope is as conservative as it comes to doctrine I am not sure if Luther would have like that this Pope has maintained the doctrine of purgatory at a time when many theologians within the church wanted to downplay or get rid of it altogher and this Pope has granted indulgences he strongly believes in them. These are things Luther would have problems with. But hey we can’t rewrite history and I will admit that the Reformation would have happened if it was Luther or King Henry VIII or whomever had enough poltical power to pull it off. Luther had the princes behind him Henry was the King. For the most part the kick starting of the reforation was not by the common man but by monarchy whatver religion they chose the common man got stuck with. But of course Luther gave the formula for further revolt in sola scriptura and then every common man had his own idea which often differed from the king or prince they served thus mass confussion today.

 

[Psalm89]

Fair enough Maccabees.

I like the RCC, in fact here are the things I really like about it.

1. Moral issues. While RCC members might not follow thing all like contraception, they are certainly right on paper with these issues as far as I can tell.
2. Science and the Bible. No young earth nonsense as dogma. They leave it to science and guide the moral parts not the science parts.
3. Great philosphers and saints. The list goes on but Aquinas, Augustine and the like are great men who stood up for God.

My mother taught in Catholic schools for most of her life. I asked her many times how she liked it. She really liked it for the most part, but said it wasn’t too different from our Lutheran Church when it came to how the local church was run.

Really good priests preached both law and gospel and properly adminstered the sacraments. Those masses were good she said and the kids would respond. Other priests weren’t so good. The parishes would take the identity of the priest for the most part, a lot like protestant churches.

 

[Maccabees]

I agree with everything on you aboved post amazing.

Yes for better or worse no matter the monlith the RC can be a lot depends on the parish priest.
I don’t think a lot of fundamentilist understand this. They must think some bid Vatican spy is laying down the law to march us lock step and barrell. IN reality your experience depends a lot on the quality of your local priest.

 

[Katholikos]

That Luther was trying to reform the Church is a myth that Protestants and some Catholics insist on perpetuating. Good ole’ benevolent Luther. But Luther hated the Catholic Church. He called the Church “the Whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the anti-Christ” --labels that are still slung at the Church by (some) Protestants, wrapped in a brick, to this very day.

No one who has read what Luther said and wrote about the Catholic Church – together with his attacks upon Catholic doctrine and his insistence on his own novel doctrines as “truth” – can believe that he intended to reform the Church. The Church needed reforming, and others did reform the Church – but Luther made no attempt to do so.

How does one reform an organization by splintering it? Luther believed in polygamy – and salvation by faith alone – and numerous other un-Catholic doctrines.

His revolt against the Church would probably have failed except for the support and cunning of the German princes – His opposition to the Church, which was very public, became a tool used by the political forces of the day.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Maccabees:

I agree with everything on you aboved post amazing.

Yes for better or worse no matter the monlith the RC can be a lot depends on the parish priest.
I don’t think a lot of fundamentilist understand this. They must think some bid Vatican spy is laying down the law to march us lock step and barrell. IN reality your experience depends a lot on the quality of your local priest.

But the teaching of the Church is what’s important – not individual priests. The priests are not the Catholic Church. Nor is a Bishop. Only those priests and bishops faithful to the Magisterium and in lock-step with the Holy Father represent the Church.

JMJ Jay

 

[Maccabees]

I know that. Just admitting a valid observation. The orders come from the top in my cathechism and in my heart but parishes are affected by the priest.

 

[CommonMan]

One of the reasons why The Lutheran Forums was started was to give, those who make claims against Luther or who have questions about him, a place to present those claims and questions.

I often see myths and false claims tossed out as if they are facts. When I challange those facts and ask a board member to cite sources the response is usually some disparate quotes ripped from a web page.

I don’t ask anyone to become Lutheran. I do expect those that attack him to at least do more than cut and paste. Read a recent biography, read his own work and do some research beyond a few web sites.

If you have a reason to criticize Luther then come over to the forum and present it, just don’t forget to provide the source of your knowledge.

 

[Cubsfan]

Katholikos:

That Luther was trying to reform the Church is a myth that Protestants and some Catholics insist on perpetuating. Good ole’ benevolent Luther. But Luther hated the Catholic Church. He called the Church “the Whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the anti-Christ” --labels that are still slung at the Church by (some) Protestants, wrapped in a brick, to this very day.

No one who has read what Luther said and wrote about the Catholic Church – together with his attacks upon Catholic doctrine and his insistence on his own novel doctrines as “truth” – can believe that he intended to reform the Church. The Church needed reforming, and others did reform the Church – but Luther made no attempt to do so.

How does one reform an organization by splintering it? Luther believed in polygamy – and salvation by faith alone – and numerous other un-Catholic doctrines.

His revolt against the Church would probably have failed except for the support and cunning of the German princes – His opposition to the Church, which was very public, became a tool used by the political forces of the day.

JMJ Jay

:clapping:

Thank you Katholikos!

If you read the history of the so called protestant reformation it is apparent that Luther was accepted and protected by various German princes who primarily wanted to grab church lands and also to get rid of the Holy Roman Emperor, Henry V.

My problem with Luther is that he was not a reformer but an egotist who became more Papal than the Pope.

 

[kamz]

Psalm89:

At my Lutheran Church (LCMS) we might say Catholic about three times a year. Reformation Sunday and maybe in a couple of sermons but that is it. You make it sound like there are tons of meetings every year to get those darned ol’ Catholics.

Your point about Lutherans slowly dieing is much more accurate. We aren’t losing tons of members to Catholocism, but to other “fancier” protestant churches. We actually aren’t losing members, we just aren’t growing. It has been flat over the last couple of decades.

Lutherans are liturgical and theological, we have catechisms and indepth theological bible study. Presbyterians and other protestants that can trace their confessions back to reformation times are some of the only protestants that have really good theological scholarship. They follow liturgy and creeds because we are reformers not rebels.

See www.modernreformation.org

We are aghast as Catholics about the current theological trends of modern American Churches.

I’m sure most Lutheran’s don’t have the “Lutherans good Catholics Bad attitude” But, the church my husband goes to (lcms) they do and I’ve witnessed it first hand and have actually come home from a bible study I went to with my husband crying because of the Catholic bashing, it hurt and I was very surprised that people could do nothing better than attack the Catholic faith and act like they were not sinners, so it left a very sour taste in my mouth but I know that this can’t be how every Lutheran church is or I really hope and pray not, in the end we are still brothers and sisters in Christ and when we act like little children pointing fingers over who is and who is not going to heaven we all fail to get the point of what being a christian is.

 

[Contarini]

Maccabees:

The numbers say otherwise the Lutheran denom is dying out and shrinking in numbers its one of the fastest shrinking denominations. Jesus wanted his church to be releveant to be shining city on a hill so that other might beleive. And most evangelicals join lower church denoms like the Baptist and Assemblies of God or join a non -denom. Sorry the traditional mainline denoms are in decline. Don’t shoot the messenger I am reporting reality. Maybe if you tired evangelizing instead of attacking facts your church would be growing instead of being irrelevant.

You are assuming that growth in numbers is a sign of God’s blessing. That is erroneous and probably heretical. I agree that the mainline is in deep trouble, but you vastly underestimate the power of renewal within the mainline. Lots of Catholics are leaving and joining low-church denominations as well.

A “city on a hill” is not what most modern people mean by “relevant.”

Besides, why did you assume I was Lutheran?

In Chrsit,

Edwin

 

[Rhoni10]

kamz:

I’m sure most Lutheran’s don’t have the “Lutherans good Catholics Bad attitude” But, the church my husband goes to (lcms) they do and I’ve witnessed it first hand and have actually come home from a bible study I went to with my husband crying because of the Catholic bashing, it hurt and I was very surprised that people could do nothing better than attack the Catholic faith and act like they were not sinners, so it left a very sour taste in my mouth but I know that this can’t be how every Lutheran church is or I really hope and pray not, in the end we are still brothers and sisters in Christ and when we act like little children pointing fingers over who is and who is not going to heaven we all fail to get the point of what being a christian is.

I’m sorry to hear about your experience. While I’m sure it does happen in some churches, it does not happen in all. I’ve never heard any Cathollic bad attitudes in the church that I have belonged to in my entire life.

God Bless,
Rhonda

 

[kamz]

As I said, I figured that this was the not common thing for a church and I hope that these people can open their hearts and learn that Catholics are simply their brothers and sisters in Christ and we do share a common faith and that is we all love and serve the same God. Although I had a bad experience that has not kept me from praying for these people or trying to seek them out when I see them and speaking kindly with them, the best thing I can do is prove them wrong I guess, I know they are simply mis informed about Catholics and other religions as well and my hope is that in time they will soften their hearts.

 

[dumspirospero]

Go figure…I thought Indulgences would have been a big topic on that board.

Erich:

I just checked out lutheranforums.com. As of right now (2/3/05) there are 18 fora. The most active one is one entitled “Our neighbors faiths” and has almost as many posts as the remaining 17 fora combined. The most popular topics include the following:

Peter and the Papacy
Virginity of Mary
Apostolic Succession
The Virgin Mary
The Eucharist
The Lord’s Supper
Saints

and one topic which might explain why these are the most popular:

Are Roman Catholics our only neighbors with faith?