New Mass translation

[tyson]

So the new translation of the mass is supposed to be more closely related to scripture. I don’t find or see how the word “Chalice” during the consecration is closer to scripture than the word “Cup” which I find in my Bible and other Bibles I have seen. Any clue as to why this is?

Any ideas???

 

[bmullins]

So the new translation of the mass is supposed to be more closely related to scripture. I don’t find or see how the word “Chalice” during the consecration is closer to scripture than the word “Cup” which I find in my Bible and other Bibles I have seen. Any clue as to why this is?

Any ideas???

Well it requires going to the Bible the church uses and not just any other bible. In the Douay Rheims it says: In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. (1 Corinthians 11:25 )

Chalice calls to mind a much more solemn event than a cup. Just saying cup implies it’s nothing more than a glass. How many of us would be comfortable drinking the blood of Christ from a red dixie cup? Or from a sippy cup? By using chalice we give an implication of a goblet for wine, often ornate and regal. We remind that this is not an ordinary cup, but the cup of a King, the King of the Jews, the King of Kings.

The Latin which was used to translate this says: Similiter et calicem, postquam cœnavit, dicens: Hic calix novum testamentum est in meo sanguine. hoc facite quotiescumque bibetis, in meam commemorationem.

(I’m not latin scholar btw, just going off what I see on the face value.) The word in this sentence that means cup is calix.

Here is a page to show you that calix translated to English directly as Chalice, not just cup. calix - Wiktioknary

 

[tyson]

Well it requires going to the Bible the church uses and not just any other bible. In the Douay Rheims it says: In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. (1 Corinthians 11:25 )

Chalice calls to mind a much more solemn event than a cup. Just saying cup implies it’s nothing more than a glass. How many of us would be comfortable drinking the blood of Christ from a red dixie cup? Or from a sippy cup? By using chalice we give an implication of a goblet for wine, often ornate and regal. We remind that this is not an ordinary cup, but the cup of a King, the King of the Jews, the King of Kings.

The Latin which was used to translate this says: Similiter et calicem, postquam cœnavit, dicens: Hic calix novum testamentum est in meo sanguine. hoc facite quotiescumque bibetis, in meam commemorationem.

(I’m not latin scholar btw, just going off what I see on the face value.) The word in this sentence that means cup is calix.

Here is a page to show you that calix translated to English directly as Chalice, not just cup. calix - Wiktioknary

Cool makes a ton of sense, but in reality did Jesus use a chalice or a cup at the last supper? I doubt he used a nice shiny gold chalice, chances are it was a cup made from clay or mud…just seems kind of weird I guess…

Awesome answer thanks!

 

[Barbkw]

Cool makes a ton of sense, but in reality did Jesus use a chalice or a cup at the last supper? I doubt he used a nice shiny gold chalice, chances are it was a cup made from clay or mud…just seems kind of weird I guess…

Awesome answer thanks!

The Ark and the Tabernacle and the sacred items for use in the Tabernacle were specifically made for worship according to God’s instruction to Moses.

 

[Zekariya]

I know that this has been answered very well already. However, I wanted to show the constant parallel between chalice and calix with its other forms. The following is the Clementine Latin Vuglate followed by the Douay Rheims:

Matthew 26:27 Et accipiens calicem gratias egit: et dedit illis, dicens: Bibite ex hoc omnes.
And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this.

Mark 14:23 Et accepto calice, gratias agens dedit eis: et biberunt ex illo omnes.
And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it.

Luke 22:17 Et accepto calice gratias egit, et dixit: Accipite, et dividite inter vos.
And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you:

The Baronius Press Roman Missal (1662): Hic est enim Calix Sánguinis mei, novi et ætérni testaménti: Mystérium fídei: qui pro vobis et pro multis effundétur in remissiónem peccatórum.
For this is the Chalice of My Blood of the new and eternal Testament, the Mystery of Faith; which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.

[Emphasis mine.]

 

[bmullins]

I think we have to admit we don’t know what kind of cup or chalice was used at the last supper. It could have been clay, mud, wooden, or even a golden temple object. Some hold that the house they held the last supper in was the house of a religious official, closely tied to John himself. It’s very possible that it could have been something more than just a cup, but it could have been nothing more than a cup as well.

The poster above has a very valid point. The Ark of the Covenant was very fancy, covered in gold and carvings. It contained the tablets the word of God were written on. How much more should we attempt to the very best of our abilities to provide something similar to contain the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in our ceremonies.

 

[runningdude]

Cool makes a ton of sense, but in reality did Jesus use a chalice or a cup at the last supper? I doubt he used a nice shiny gold chalice, chances are it was a cup made from clay or mud…just seems kind of weird I guess…

Awesome answer thanks!

The way I thought of it was that the ordinary cup he used became a sacred vessel by contact with His hands during the first Eucharist. Hence, it became a chalice, though appearing as an ordinary cup (certainly no weirder than the body and blood of our Lord appearing as ordinary bread and wine!).

Of course, its important we remember that this was the humble of cup of a carpenter, as any Indiana Jones fan knows! youtube.com/watch?v=xCUwQIn3GrU

 

[Theophorus]

So the new translation of the mass is supposed to be more closely related to scripture. I don’t find or see how the word “Chalice” during the consecration is closer to scripture than the word “Cup” which I find in my Bible and other Bibles I have seen. Any clue as to why this is?

Any ideas???

The new translation is a more faithful translation from the original Latin text, which has far, far more scriptural references and allusions than the previous translation did and in that respect it is much closer to the scriptural texts.

However, the Mass precedes the writing of the Bible (Mass A.D. 33, earliest Gospel c. A.D. 65-70 and we say that the Sacred Liturgy is its own Theological focal point with its own weight and importance (it is still both Sacred Scripture and Holy Mass not either/or)
The Word Calix-Chalice, has been used in the Latin Liturgy as long as there are records available and what we are looking for from this new text is translation accuracy.

The Meal Jesus Had in the upper room was no simple family dinner. While scholars disagree on the exact nature of the last supper they agree that it was a highly ritualistic meal and would have used the best available utensils, and as the previous poster said “Chalice calls to mind a much more solemn event than a cup” . indeed the earliest Christians kept precious vessels for the celebration of the Eucharist so I reckon we should to.

 

[Telstar]

I just did a quick search in the Douay-Rheims online, for both “chalice” and “cup”. All references to “chalice” in the NT (19) are related to the Last Supper, the Eucharist or to Christ’s suffering. I also found 2 places where it’s used in the OT, both of them also seem to refer to Jesus.*1: Psalms 22:5 Thou hast prepared a table before me against them that afflict me. Thou hast anointed my head with oil; and my chalice which inebriateth me, how goodly is it!

2: Psalms 115:13 I will take the chalice of salvation; and I will call upon the name of the Lord.*

There are 40 references to “cup” in the whole Bible, all of which are either about mundane things like drinking cups, “cup of water”, “cup of wine”, and several others that are references to metaphorical things, like “cup of wrath”, “cup of grief”. The chalice is always significant to Jesus, in particular, and has some connection to the Last Supper, His suffering or the Eucharist. I think it’s fairly obvious why it was chosen over “cup” when you look at those stats.

 

[Fragile]

There are 40 references to “cup” in the whole Bible, all of which are either about mundane things like drinking cups, “cup of water”, “cup of wine”, and several others that are references to metaphorical things, like “cup of wrath”, “cup of grief”.

Anything on a cup of Joe? :coffeeread:

 

[Fragile]

I think most of the objections to the new mass are the same as mine, we don’t like change! :nope:

 

[Church_Militant]

So the new translation of the mass is supposed to be more closely related to scripture. I don’t find or see how the word “Chalice” during the consecration is closer to scripture than the word “Cup” which I find in my Bible and other Bibles I have seen. Any clue as to why this is?

Any ideas???

The chalice question has already been answered, but I urge you to get Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book.
A Biblical Walk Through the Mass
by Edward Sri

                          In *A Biblical Walk Through the Mass*,  Dr. Edward Sri takes us on a unique tour of the Liturgy. Based on the  revised translation of the Mass, this book explores the biblical roots  of the words and gestures we experience in the Liturgy and explains  their profound significance. This intriguing look at the Mass is sure to  renew your faith and deepen your devotion to the Eucharist.

Our Price: $12.99

                                                                                                               [ascensionpress.com/shop/ProdImages/BIBLICAL-BOOK_150.jpg](http://www.ascensionpress.com/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=651)which was the prep course in our parish. His book is an intensive study of the very Biblical roots of the Mass. The course itself is so good that we urged our DRE to include it in the RCIA program which didn't cover these things near as well. (Image is a link to where you can order it)

 

[ProVobis]

chalice
early 14c., from Anglo-Fr. chalice, from O.Fr. chalice, collateral form of calice (Mod.Fr. calice), from **L. calicem **(nom. calix) “cup,” cognate with Gk. kylix “cup, drinking cup,” from PIE base *kal- “cup.” Ousted O.E. cognate cælic, an ecclesiastical borrowing of the Latin word.

 

[Telstar]

Anything on a cup of Joe? :coffeeread:

Only in LDS doctrine.

 

[patrick457]

Cool makes a ton of sense, but in reality did Jesus use a chalice or a cup at the last supper? I doubt he used a nice shiny gold chalice, chances are it was a cup made from clay or mud…just seems kind of weird I guess…

Awesome answer thanks!

Well, that’s one common material of choice for drinking cups back then. Alternatively, you have stoneware, which was less susceptible to ritual uncleanliness in Jewish thought when compared to ordinary pottery - and which were more expensive and difficult to manufacture.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3654/goblets.gif
A stack of pottery goblets from Qumran

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2572/cupsw.jpg
Two stone cups, also from Qumran

The Greek word used in the Last Supper narrative is ποτήριον potērion (originally a diminutive of ποτήρ potēr, “cup” from πίνω pinō, “I drink”). The word appears in the following instances in the New Testament:

1.) The ποτήριον of wine that Jesus passed around at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:27; Mark 14:23; Luke 22:17, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:25), by extension the “ποτηρίων of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 10:16, 21, 26-27)
2.) The “ποτήριον of demons” which St. Paul contrasts with that of the Lord (1 Corinthians 10:20/1)
3.) The ποτήριον of suffering that Jesus must drink (Matthew 20:22-23, 26:39; Mark 10:38-39, 14:36; Luke 22:42; John 18:11)
4.) Anyone who gives a ποτήριον of (cold) water to a disciple of Jesus will not be without reward (Matthew 10:42; Mark 9:40/1)
5.) Jesus accuses the Pharisees of cleaning the “outside of the ποτήριον and of the dish” (Matthew: τοῦ ποτηρίου καὶ τῆς παροψίδος, Luke: τοῦ ποτηρίου καὶ τοῦ πίνακος) while neglecting the inside (Matthew 23:25-26; Luke 11:39)
6.) The ποτήριον of God’s wrath which is to be given to the wicked and to Babylon (Revelation 14:10; 16:19)
7.) The golden ποτήριον of the Whore of Babylon (Revelation 17:4)
8.) The voice from heaven tells God’s people to “mix a double portion for [Babylon] in the ποτήριον she mixed” (Revelation 18:6)

In the Latin Vulgate:

1.)-3.) ποτήριον is usually rendered as calix.
4.) Matthew 10:42; Mark 9:40/1: ποτήριον ψυχροῦ/ὕδατος is rendered as calicem aquae (frigidae)
5.) Matthew 23:25-26; Luke 11:39: τοῦ ποτηρίου καὶ τῆς παροψίδος/τοῦ πίνακος is rendered as calicis et parapsidis/catini
6.) Revelation 14:10: τῷ ποτηρίῳ τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ is rendered as calice irae ipsius; Revelation 16:19: τὸ ποτήριον τοῦ οἴνου τοῦ θυμοῦ τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ is rendered as calicem vini indignationis irae eius
7.) Revelation 17:4: ποτήριον χρυσοῦν is rendered as poculum aureum
8.) Revelation 18:6: ποτηρίῳ is rendered as poculo

We can see here that the Vulgate mostly renders the word ποτηρίου as calix (even that of the demons in 1 Corinthians 10); it only chooses another word, poculum, in the context of the Babylon. (So no, anti-Catholics can’t accuse the Church as being the Whore because of the “golden cup” she holds in her hand and whatnot; I mean, that was a poculum, not a calix! )

 

[ProVobis]

Well, that’s one common material of choice for drinking cups back then. Alternatively, you have stoneware, which was less susceptible to ritual uncleanliness in Jewish thought when compared to ordinary pottery - and which were more expensive and difficult to manufacture.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3654/goblets.gif
A stack of pottery goblets from Qumran

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2572/cupsw.jpg
Two stone cups, also from Qumran

The Greek word used in the Last Supper narrative is ποτήριον potērion (originally a diminutive of ποτήρ potēr, “cup” from πίνω pinō, “I drink”). The word appears in the following instances in the New Testament:

1.) The ποτήριον of wine that Jesus passed around at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:27; Mark 14:23; Luke 22:17, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:25), by extension the “ποτηρίων of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 10:16, 21, 26-27)
2.) The “ποτήριον of demons” which St. Paul contrasts with that of the Lord (1 Corinthians 10:20/1)
3.) The ποτήριον of suffering that Jesus must drink (Matthew 20:22-23, 26:39; Mark 10:38-39, 14:36; Luke 22:42; John 18:11)
4.) Anyone who gives a ποτήριον of (cold) water to a disciple of Jesus will not be without reward (Matthew 10:42; Mark 9:40/1)
5.) Jesus accuses the Pharisees of cleaning the “outside of the ποτήριον and of the dish” (Matthew: τοῦ ποτηρίου καὶ τῆς παροψίδος, Luke: τοῦ ποτηρίου καὶ τοῦ πίνακος) while neglecting the inside (Matthew 23:25-26; Luke 11:39)
6.) The ποτήριον of God’s wrath which is to be given to the wicked and to Babylon (Revelation 14:10; 16:19)
7.) The golden ποτήριον of the Whore of Babylon (Revelation 17:4)
8.) The voice from heaven tells God’s people to “mix a double portion for [Babylon] in the ποτήριον she mixed” (Revelation 18:6)

In the Latin Vulgate:

1.)-3.) ποτήριον is usually rendered as calix.
4.) Matthew 10:42; Mark 9:40/1: ποτήριον ψυχροῦ/ὕδατος is rendered as calicem aquae (frigidae)
5.) Matthew 23:25-26; Luke 11:39: τοῦ ποτηρίου καὶ τῆς παροψίδος/τοῦ πίνακος is rendered as calicis et parapsidis/catini
6.) Revelation 14:10: τῷ ποτηρίῳ τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ is rendered as calice irae ipsius; Revelation 16:19: τὸ ποτήριον τοῦ οἴνου τοῦ θυμοῦ τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ is rendered as calicem vini indignationis irae eius
7.) Revelation 17:4: ποτήριον χρυσοῦν is rendered as poculum aureum
8.) Revelation 18:6: ποτηρίῳ is rendered as poculo

We can see here that the Vulgate mostly renders the word ποτηρίου as calix (even that of the demons in 1 Corinthians 10); it only chooses another word, poculum, in the context of the Babylon. (So no, anti-Catholics can’t accuse the Church as being the Whore because of the “golden cup” she holds in her hand and whatnot; I mean, that was a poculum, not a calix! )

Cool!

 

[bmonk]

I think we have to admit we don’t know what kind of cup or chalice was used at the last supper. It could have been clay, mud, wooden, or even a golden temple object. Some hold that the house they held the last supper in was the house of a religious official, closely tied to John himself. It’s very possible that it could have been something more than just a cup, but it could have been nothing more than a cup as well.

The poster above has a very valid point. The Ark of the Covenant was very fancy, covered in gold and carvings. It contained the tablets the word of God were written on. How much more should we attempt to the very best of our abilities to provide something similar to contain the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in our ceremonies.

Don’t forget, if the Last Supper was a Passover meal, as mentioned in the Synoptic Gospels, it was a very solemn feast, and the best available table furnishings would have been brought out–so it would likely not have been just the “daily” ceramic or wooden cups, but something one or two steps up, at least.