New member, looking for discussion

[block]

How?

When Jesus says there will be no signs I believe He means no more miracles being performed by Him in front of people in the human form. When I say ask for signs, I believe that God still does show us discrete things, we just have to know how to read them.

 

[jmcrae]

When Jesus says there will be no signs I believe He means no more miracles being performed by Him in front of people in the human form. When I say ask for signs, I believe that God still does show us discrete things, we just have to know how to read them.

Certainly. I remember an atheist friend of mine one time, asking God, and saying, “If you are real, show me a sign.”

This was back in the 1970s, and just at that moment, one of the Jesus People came around the corner, carrying a sign that said, “God is Real.”

Of course, the atheist said that it was nothing more than a coincidence.

What I think is, when a person is ready to believe, they won’t need signs and wonders; they’ll just make that leap of faith - but if they don’t want to believe, then no amount of signs and wonders will be enough - everything God does for them will be written off as “just a coincidence.”

 

[JLM316]

I did not intend to insult you.

Can you please explain your advice more clearly and thoroughly?

Everything I type here I would say to a person in a conversation.

Ok here goes -

I think it is the Holy Spirit trying to work inside you continually bringing you back to this thread. ie: God may be calling you, asking you to come home to Him. This is what I meant by asking you my initial question ‘are you seeking?’ Obviously to seek is a verb, it means you are on a journey, an adventure, looking for something - but you are not sure what it is. This is a supernatural event. You cannot explain it - so don’t ask me to try. Now you may ask - why do I say this. Why do I think you may be seeking. The answer is - I don’t really know if its true or not. I am speculating that you could be. I suggest it to you because I believe you need to find out.

You cannot become convinced of anything pertaining to God by looking for evidence, facts, or proofs. Becoming convinced of the truths of God are beyond our comprehension - so you just have to accept them - without proof . This is actually impossible to do without faith - and faith is not possible without seeking it out. So what I am saying is you have to first answer the question ‘am I seeking’ before you can go on to the specific religious stuff found on this web site. Otherwise they will just go right through you and provide no value whatsoever. We accept these things as a matter of faith - without proof because they are beyond our understanding.

You are basically trying to paint rooms and put curtains on a window of a house whose foundation has not been laid. It therefore has no footing - nothing to hold it up through the winds and the storms - you have to first lay the footing before you can build on to it.

The footing you need to build begins at the cross of Jesus Christ. No Christian can begin elsewhere. Everything we do and say as Catholics center around it. You must accept that God exists as a loving Father, a Son who became man and died for you, and a Holy Spirit that dwells inside of you, tugging and convicting and leading you in these matters. Until you can do this, you will be spinning your wheels and getting no where. This is not an intellectual exercise - it is a matter of the heart and the will. You must give up a part of yourself to find your true self in Christ - until you do - none of this will make sense. When you do - it all will and no further convincing will be needed. I say this once again because until you answer the initial question as to whether you are looking for the one thing that matters in our entire existence - you will not find an answer to your questions. You must go there first.

 

[wasmit]

Ok here goes -

I think it is the Holy Spirit trying to work inside you continually bringing you back to this thread. ie: God may be calling you, asking you to come home to Him. This is what I meant by asking you my initial question ‘are you seeking?’ Obviously to seek is a verb, it means you are on a journey, an adventure, looking for something - but you are not sure what it is. This is a supernatural event. You cannot explain it - so don’t ask me to try. Now you may ask - why do I say this. Why do I think you may be seeking. The answer is - I don’t really know if its true or not. I am speculating that you could be. I suggest it to you because I believe you need to find out.

You cannot become convinced of anything pertaining to God by looking for evidence, facts, or proofs. Becoming convinced of the truths of God are beyond our comprehension - so you just have to accept them - without proof . This is actually impossible to do without faith - and faith is not possible without seeking it out. So what I am saying is you have to first answer the question ‘am I seeking’ before you can go on to the specific religious stuff found on this web site. Otherwise they will just go right through you and provide no value whatsoever. We accept these things as a matter of faith - without proof because they are beyond our understanding.

You are basically trying to paint rooms and put curtains on a window of a house whose foundation has not been laid. It therefore has no footing - nothing to hold it up through the winds and the storms - you have to first lay the footing before you can build on to it.

The footing you need to build begins at the cross of Jesus Christ. No Christian can begin elsewhere. Everything we do and say as Catholics center around it. You must accept that God exists as a loving Father, a Son who became man and died for you, and a Holy Spirit that dwells inside of you, tugging and convicting and leading you in these matters. Until you can do this, you will be spinning your wheels and getting no where. This is not an intellectual exercise - it is a matter of the heart and the will. You must give up a part of yourself to find your true self in Christ - until you do - none of this will make sense. When you do - it all will and no further convincing will be needed. I say this once again because until you answer the initial question as to whether you are looking for the one thing that matters in our entire existence - you will not find an answer to your questions. You must go there first.

thanks for that explaination, that is more clear.

“You cannot become convinced of anything pertaining to God by looking for evidence, facts, or proofs.”

Ok

It looks like you are saying “you must have faith to be able to be convinced by any demonstration or proof”. However, a rational person cannot have faith, and if a person has faith, a proof is superfluous.

 

[wasmit]

When Jesus says there will be no signs I believe He means no more miracles being performed by Him in front of people in the human form. When I say ask for signs, I believe that God still does show us discrete things, we just have to know how to read them.

can you be more specific?

i.e. talk about individual examples?

 

[wasmit]

Certainly. I remember an atheist friend of mine one time, asking God, and saying, “If you are real, show me a sign.”

This was back in the 1970s, and just at that moment, one of the Jesus People came around the corner, carrying a sign that said, “God is Real.”

Of course, the atheist said that it was nothing more than a coincidence.

What I think is, when a person is ready to believe, they won’t need signs and wonders; they’ll just make that leap of faith - but if they don’t want to believe, then no amount of signs and wonders will be enough - everything God does for them will be written off as “just a coincidence.”

I am ready to believe anything. I don’t have any predisposition to any belief stance. It is wrong to say that I “don’t want to believe [in a god]”

how do you know that your story about the sign was divinely influenced? How do you know that it was not a coincidence?

 

[wasmit]

Well, there’s a lot of folks here that know more than me, but I had to throw in one answer that jumped out at me after reading the whole thread…

Because you’re here arguing about it. That’s it.

how do you know that us having a discussion here shows that a god has given humans free will?

Can you please explain your thought process more thoroughly?

 

[wasmit]

If you read the Gospels (and don’t try to disect every verse) you’ll see that, no matter how good a person is, Jesus is always calling them on to more Holiness. A rich man who has obeyed all the Mosaic Law since Childhood is challenged to, “sell all he has, give to the poor, and come follow (Jesus)”. Another time Jesus tells his followers that if they have faith the size of a mustard seed they could move a mountain and cast it into the sea. Jesus never would allow his followers to “rest on their laurals”. Jesus often used analogies and parables; “The kingdom of heaven is like…” and so forth.

Related to your point of “always do more”,

This is another thing that persuaded me:

"
Very few people believe in God.

Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be frantic to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought that they might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal damnation, or bad reincarnation, or some other
unthinkable consequence. People would dedicate their lives to converting others to their religions.

A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But the four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few.

The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.

If you asked them, they’d say they believe.

They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do.

If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.

People claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

The best any human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. This is why people of different religions can generally live in peace. At some level, we all suspect that other people don’t believe their own religion
any more than we believe ours.

Maybe the reason we respect other religions is that they all have a core set of beliefs in common. They only differ in the details?

Jews and Muslims believe that Christ isn’t the Son of God. If they are right, then Christians are mistaken about the core of their religion. And if the Jews or the Christians or the Muslims have the right religion, then the Hindus and Buddhists who believe in reincarnation are wrong. Would you call those details?”

At some level of consciousness, everyone knows that the odds of picking the true religion—if such a thing exists—are nil.
"

 

[block]

can you be more specific?

i.e. talk about individual examples?

No, I will keep them private because you will just throw them away as coincidence. I am not gonna try to convince you to believe in God. Like I said before, if you do change your beliefs it won’t be because of anything that anybody on here says.

 

[neophyte]

1. is false, if miracles cannot happen a god may still exist…

God, by definition, can perform acts that utterly violate all laws of physics. Thus, if God exists then miracles are possible, and miracles are impossible only if there is no God.

…also, miracles can happen with no god.

.A miracle is by definition an event that involves a violation of the laws of nature. By definition, they cannot occur except under the influence of the supernatural.

1. is false - jesus’ body may be found, or prayer could be shown to work.

The first would be historical evidence, not scientific. The disciplines are similar in cetain ways, but they are not the same. Science involves experiments that can be controlled and repeated, which means that by definition it cannot demonstrate the existance of a person. And the while you in principle one could demonstrate scientifically that prayer works, that couldn’t prove that God exists.

1. is false, he could use other ways.

I’m not aware of any kind of evidence other than scientific or historical.

1. i agree that the man existed, the biblical stories are most likely just that - a story.

“Most likely”?..

1. what evidence?

The historical evidence of which we have been speaking, and of which you have some cursory familiarity.

1. is false, ther are other options that “nutcase” or “evil”.

Jesues claimed to be God, and that one must be willing to utterly surrender one’s life to him in order to attain heaven. There are only three options: either he believed it and was wrong (which means he was out of touch with reality), he didn’t believe it and claimed it anyway (which means he was malicious, or a sociopath), or he was really God. Every other options that I’ve ever heard falls within one of these three categories. Lord, liar, or lunatic - there are no other options.

1. is false a non-evil and non-insane person is not automatically a god.

We’re talking about a specific person who made specific claims.

 

[JRKH]

Related to your point of “always do more”,

This is another thing that persuaded me:

"
Very few people believe in God.

Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be frantic to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought that they might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal damnation, or bad reincarnation, or some other
unthinkable consequence. People would dedicate their lives to converting others to their religions.

A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But the four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few.

This is quite interesting and also, I would say, quite true.
I guess that in Christianity we would refer to this as “Falling Short of the Glory of God”. We have all sinned and we all have problems with really living up to our faith. So I guess that I would say that what he is describing is not that God does not exist, but rather that the “Way is narrow” and requires a real leap of faith rather than some tangible assurance. So this first paragraph is less of an indictment of God/religion than it is an indictment of us humans.
I note in this that the last line refers to “a few” who live their lives in the fashon that the author describes. However he does not make reference to those people who know that they are falling short, and are doing their imperfect best to rely on God. For we also believe that God is mercifull and sees what is in the heart. Just look in the Gospels for “The widow mite”, giving to God from her very need, or at how Jesus berates the Pharasees for doing everything for show.

The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.

If you asked them, they’d say they believe.

They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do.

You don’t say who or when this was written, which would be nice. I would be interested hearing what the author considers to be “the benefits of religion”. Again, for those who act as shown above, I’d look at the Gospel and see what Jesus had to say about such “for show” people.
Many people do indeed not believe, or at least properly understand, the underlying reality. It is like a great pool of water with a tremendous treasure out of sight in the depths. Some have found this treasure and taken pieces of it for themselves. They have shown this treasure to others and told them how to get to the treasure. But most of the others either scoff, or just jump in and swim around a bit without really trying to dive and seek the treasure. They prefer to stay near the surface, feeling the warmth of the earthly sun and looking down into the depths of spirituality without really probing them.
Other, more hearty souls do begin to dive, sseking to reach this treasure. They read the stories of those who have been there. They train themselves to have faith, and trust. Occasionally they come back to the surface choking and gasping falling back into worldly ways. A dedicated few persist and persevere. They continue to dive, holding theif breath for longer and longer periods. It is they who will eventually achieve the Treasure. The ones who persevere.

Now the above is not a great analogy, and the important thing to remember is to try to reach the treasure and not be content with paddling around on the surface or standing on the shore scoffing.

If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.

Actually Jesus put it in just such terms when He told His disciples that if they “had faith the size of a mustard seed, they could say to this mountain be moved from there and be cast into the sea, and it would happen”. Jesus also told the rich young man to sell his worldly goods and give to the poor etc…
So again, this is not an indictment or proof against the existance of God but rather and indictment of Sinful and Faithless people.

(Cont)

 

[JRKH]

(From Above)

People claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

While I do believe in the underlying sentiment of this statement, I disagree with the “All or nothing” nature of it. It presumes to judge what is in the heart of another. If a person is a smoker but is unable to quit, does that mean they do not know the probable cost of their smoking? Does that mean they do not believe it is ultimately bad for them? Actually they probably do, but they just can’t seem to kick the habit for whatever reason. (they fall back into sin as it were) However, by the rule above, you say that they don’t “literally” believe smoking will kill them. But that is not necessarily the case and how are we to truly know what they truly believe. They may know it, and hate the cigerette, while being unable to give it up. Perhaps someday they will though so they keep trying. Someday - is that hope that many share in becoming better believers.

The best any human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. This is why people of different religions can generally live in peace. At some level, we all suspect that other people don’t believe their own religion
any more than we believe ours.

In general I think I must agree with this. Not because we should be forcing others to join our religion, but because the best witness we can give to our faith is to live it out. This is what others see and judge us by.
Of course one can also reject God and be considered just as delusional as the rest of us. For they will say God doesn’t exist and then ask God to damn something. I hear this quite often. Or they might say “God help us” or some other “quip”. Delusions can cut both ways.

Maybe the reason we respect other religions is that they all have a core set of beliefs in common. They only differ in the details?

This blanket statement is too broad to try and comment on. Beleifs and practices would need to be addressed in some detail.

Jews and Muslims believe that Christ isn’t the Son of God. If they are right, then Christians are mistaken about the core of their religion. And if the Jews or the Christians or the Muslims have the right religion, then the Hindus and Buddhists who believe in reincarnation are wrong. Would you call those details?”

No I would not call these details. Neither would I call them a reason to reject the existance of God.

At some level of consciousness, everyone knows that the odds of picking the true religion—if such a thing exists—are nil.
"

Quite frankly, based on what this author wrote, I don’t think he has proven any such thing.
More importantly this author is talking about religion and not about “God”. Nothing in what you posted disproves God. It only disproves the common view of God, and proves that what Jesus said about the Narrow gate, and the Eye of the Needle and the Man Who Went Out to Sow are absolutely true. Far from being a case against faith, I believe the article makes the case for a renewed faith in God and desire to amend my life to draw nearer to Him.

Peace
James

 

[VociMike]

The best any human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. This

This is an extremely common atheistic “explanation” of religion, but if violates the atheist’s own world view. Because if we are nothing but products of evolution (as an atheist must believe) then there is no evolutionary explanation as to why believing in something false, and constantly acting on that belief, is more likely to spread one’s genes than believing only in things that are true, and constantly acting on those things. It is obviously contradictory, and that reality is reinforced by the fact that no other creature on the planet has evolved to go through life believing in things that are not true.

 

[redhen]

Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy…

A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But the four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few.

Believers in any faith have different, unique levels of faith. It’s that simple.

Actually you don’t have to believe in any faith to exhibit incongruous behaviour. Teenagers are a prime example, in that the behave as if they are** immortal**. Yet they know, not believe, they are not. Ingestion of dangerous drugs, alcohol, reckless driving, volunteering for the Infantry, risk taking of all kinds.

Since we’re still on analogies, here’s a good one I read; “churches are not museums for saints, they’re hospitals for sinners”.

 

[wasmit]

God, by definition, can perform acts that utterly violate all laws of physics. Thus, if God exists then miracles are possible, and miracles are impossible only if there is no God.

.A miracle is by definition an event that involves a violation of the laws of nature. By definition, they cannot occur except under the influence of the supernatural.

The first would be historical evidence, not scientific. The disciplines are similar in cetain ways, but they are not the same. Science involves experiments that can be controlled and repeated, which means that by definition it cannot demonstrate the existance of a person. And the while you in principle one could demonstrate scientifically that prayer works, that couldn’t prove that God exists.

I’m not aware of any kind of evidence other than scientific or historical.

“Most likely”?..

The historical evidence of which we have been speaking, and of which you have some cursory familiarity.

Jesues claimed to be God, and that one must be willing to utterly surrender one’s life to him in order to attain heaven. There are only three options: either he believed it and was wrong (which means he was out of touch with reality), he didn’t believe it and claimed it anyway (which means he was malicious, or a sociopath), or he was really God. Every other options that I’ve ever heard falls within one of these three categories. Lord, liar, or lunatic - there are no other options.

We’re talking about a specific person who made specific claims.

Thanks for the clarification.

Your line of reasoning, if I understand your posts correctly:

1. If the christian god exists, then miracles are possible
2. if miracles are impossible, then the christian god does not exist
3. this particular miracle happened
4. therefore miracles are possible
5. if miracles are possible, the christian god exists.
6. the christian god exists.

has the following problems:
A. Point (3) is unknown
B. (4) directly follows from (3), which is not true.
C. (5) does not follow from any previous point. (1) or (2) does not imply (5). e.g. (“If I am eating dinner, I am awake” is true, but “If I am awake, I am eating dinner” is not true)

edit: from this discussion, the major sticking point for me is (3), ressurection. Demonstrating that this happened would do a lot to change my view.

 

[wasmit]

This is an extremely common then there is no evolutionary explanation as to why believing in something false, and constantly acting on that belief, is more likely to spread one’s genes than believing only in things that are true, and constantly acting on those things.

Those that are more inclined to be spiritual tend to gather in groups under charismatic leaders.

This allows for ample mating opportunities and a numerical advantage over competing humans.

 

[forever47]

Wasmit,

Your quote of post #128 interests me, would you please post the author and source?

Originally Posted by wasmit

“Around that time I looked more closely and critically at the religion and dismissed it as silly for many reasons. The reasons mainly centred around proof, evidence, feasibility, reality, etc.”.

also

"I mustn’t deny that which is shown to be true, and I must deny that which is shown to be not.

After my original choice to believe in logical, rational, evidence based demonstrations, I can make no other choices in what to believe."

Do you believe in love? Love of/for your spouse, your child, your parents? (Choose whichever applies to your life) Does love meet the logical, rational, evidence based demonstration criteria? My answer would be no, it does not. Love comes from within one’s self with no tangible proof, just as faith in God comes from within. I believe most emotions would also not be logical, rational or evidence based. In fact, many emotions contradict the very meaning of logical and rational. Jealousy and envy come immediately to mind. But yet, would you agree that emotions do exist? To any “proof” a person may offer as tangible evidence of an emotion, I propose there would alway be an alternative explanation or possibility.

If, in fact, you do believe emotions to be a reality, is it possible there may be other things that do not fit your criteria that also exist? (Note I did not say "therefore there may be other things … but, is it possible…)

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for the clarification.

Your line of reasoning, if I understand your posts correctly:

1. If the christian god exists, then miracles are possible
2. if miracles are impossible, then the christian god does not exist
3. this particular miracle happened
4. therefore miracles are possible
5. if miracles are possible, the christian god exists.
6. the christian god exists.

has the following problems:
A. Point (3) is unknown
B. (4) directly follows from (3), which is not true.
C. (5) does not follow from any previous point. (1) or (2) does not imply (5). e.g. (“If I am eating dinner, I am awake” is true, but “If I am awake, I am eating dinner” is not true)

edit: from this discussion, the major sticking point for me is (3), ressurection. Demonstrating that this happened would do a lot to change my view.

Actually we have some of the strongest evidence available for this. It lies in the the historical, documented reocrd both directly and indirectly.

1. There are the written records of St John and St Matthew. Both eyewitnesses to the Risen Lord. Then there is the witness of Mark and Luke, who were both closely related to the actual eyewitnesses.
2. The Lord appeared to, not just a couple of people in some remote place, but to many people.
3. The Lord had physical form after the resurection since Thomas was able to put his fingers in the wounds.
4. Even more compelling is the evidence of those who were willing to die rather than recant. The most convincing of these is Peter himself. Before Jesus was crucified, Peter denied Him three times we are told. Yet after seeing the Risen Lord Peter was willing to die a horrible death rather than deny Him again.

When one considers how to determine if an “Ancinet” historical event actually occurred, the written accounts those who witnessed the events is strong and compelling evidence for the researcher.

Let us look at something more modern as an example.
Wasmit - Prove to me that anyone ever went to the moon. What evidence can you “Show” me? What Proofs do you have? We have written records, and film of rockets blasting off etc but short of going to the moon ourselves we cannot physically “Prove” that man ever went there.
The actual “proof” for the manned moon mission lies in the recorded evidence and our confidence that those evidences are real and correct. The fact that so many people were involved in it and their “stories” and “experiences” are consistant and real. As for those who actually stood on the moon, there is only about a dozen or so who can actually say, “I was there” - I touched the moon.

I’m sure I haven’t explained this all that well. I’m under a bit of a time crunch. My Wife is in hospital and I am trying to get to Church this AM. So if someone else can take and improve on the above, please do so.

Wasmit - You do have a logical and analytical mind, a bit too critical maybe, but sincere and I like that. Let me ask you this.
Can something exist without “Proof”, that is without “Wasmit approved proof”?
In other words are there things that you believe exist, but you cannot prove?

Peace
James

 

[VociMike]

Those that are more inclined to be spiritual tend to gather in groups under charismatic leaders.

This allows for ample mating opportunities and a numerical advantage over competing humans.

Pure speculation. And considering that in many cases the most spiritual end up in a celibate role, or put off “mating” longer than others, not at all convincing.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by wasmit
Those that are more inclined to be spiritual tend to gather in groups under charismatic leaders.

I actually had two thoughts as I read this post and response.
The first is that it appears that, by Wasmit’s comment, that “evolution/natural selection” favors a belief in the spiritual over non-belief. This is manifested by the clustering and reproduction of those with spiritual tendancies along with their offspring being taught these same spiritual "survival skills.

The second is that the “Mating” refered to can be on more than the physical/procreative level. There is a “Spiritual Mating” that is undeniable in many faith communities. It may be express itself between two or more people who form “natural” friendship attachments and help each other grow spiritually, but most importantly it is between the individuals and the Great God which draws them to Himself.
This “spiritual mating”, the joining of our spirits in prayer, celebration, thankgiving, fasting, liturgy, study and community can be infectious and draw others to the light and truth in a “spiritual procreation”. It is the rebirth of the lost soul into the light of God’s Glorious Grace and Kingdom.
Even those who are in celibate life can help to give “birth” to many many who are reborn into the light and life of Christ.

Peace
James