New member, looking for discussion

[wasmit]

Just as an aside,
out of my own curiosity,
Have you read any Chesterton?

You might find him interesting…

Peace
James

Firstly, this article rambles from one point to another making assumptions and assertions that are often demonstrably false, and if not obviously false, they are confused, unclear and tedious.

Secondly, this is a response to an item that I have not read, so it makes less sense.

Thirdly, this was written some time before 1904, and many words have had their meanings or emphasis changed since then. Further, the analogies and metaphors are less relevant, given that 100 years has passed since writing.

 

[Logos385]

To everyone in this discussion… I believe Wasmit fully understands the first cause argument and is well-versed in the subject. Continuing this track of thought will simply result in pointless banter that proves nothing to Wasmit (or me for that matter), and in fact probably pushes him further away from believing in this forum’s integrity.

I would suggest attempting a different tac, as both myself and Wasmit have heard every argument proposed so far before, and have taken them into consideration before forming our current worldviews. I would love to see some new, inventive, fresh ideas on the subject of confirming, proving, or even increasing the probability of God’s existence.

Sorry if I am butting in when I am not wanted Wasmit, but I just want to keep the conversation moving forward : ). Keep up the conversation, well done.

 

[wasmit]

Mr. Logos, it sounds like you are in the same position as me(99% athiest).

How did you come to this position?
I would like to hear your story if you are willing to share it.

---

I do not think that further discussion of the first cause argument is pointless - there may be some aspects of it that I am missing.

I also cannot say that I have heard every argument proposed so far. Though, I have taken the arguments that I have heard into consideration when forming my worldview.

Everyone is welcome in this discussion, Mr. Logos.

 

[jmcrae]

It is interesting that you say that your god does not wish for all people to believe (a) there exists a being who rules the entire universe. (b) That being loves humanity. (c) Humanity has been provided with an afterlife.

This means that he is a capricious and petty deity, who has pre-chosen some people and not others to receive eternal salvation or torment, respectively.

There is no “pre-choosing.” God sees our choices, but He is not making them for us. Each individual makes his or her own choice, now, in this life, whether to spend Eternity in Hell or in Heaven. God doesn’t force anyone to make any particular choice. If He were to force some people to choose Hell, He would be a monster. If He were to force everyone to choose Heaven, He wouldn’t have lovers (which is what He wants), but only prisoners.

Jesus died on the Cross for every soul, but it is up to them, whether to reciprocate and choose Him, or not.

 

[wasmit]

Jesus died on the Cross for every soul, but it is up to them, whether to reciprocate and choose Him, or not.

so, does that mean that the christian god does wish for all people to believe (a) there exists a being who rules the entire universe. (b) That being loves humanity. (c) Humanity has been provided with an afterlife?

This implies that Mr. Bluedogz’s post was wrong, or that his god is not the catholic one.

 

[jmcrae]

so, does that mean that the christian god does wish for all people to believe (a) there exists a being who rules the entire universe. (b) That being loves humanity. (c) Humanity has been provided with an afterlife?

Yes, all of these are correct.

That God wants certain things does not mean that God will get them, of course, since God leaves the choice up to us - He does not force the issue.

But yes, everyone is given the amount of information that they need, to make a clear choice either in God’s favour, or against Him. How the latter rationalize their choices is entirely up to them, and most of the time, it is futile to argue with them. Ulimately, they are arguing with God, and that’s not a fight you want to interfere with - it’s best to let it play out to its natural conclusion, whatever that may turn out to be.

Keep in mind, nobody can go to Hell by accident.

 

[wasmit]

There is no “pre-choosing.” God sees our choices, but He is not making them for us. Each individual makes his or her own choice, now, in this life, whether to spend Eternity in Hell or in Heaven. God doesn’t force anyone to make any particular choice. If He were to force some people to choose Hell, He would be a monster. If He were to force everyone to choose Heaven, He wouldn’t have lovers (which is what He wants), but only prisoners.

Jesus died on the Cross for every soul, but it is up to them, whether to reciprocate and choose Him, or not.

If the christian god is omniscient, and created humans, then he knew at the moment of creation every choice that each person was going to make, therefore he is making every choice for us, they were made when he created us.

Following on from this, humanity has three possible outcomes - everyone to hell, everyone to heaven, or some to both. If everyone or some people go to hell, then the christian god is a monster, as he knows this is going to happen, and has created this outcome at the moment of creation. If everyone goes to heaven, then we are all prisoners, and he is our jailer. So, he is either a jailer or a monster.

 

[wasmit]

Yes, all of these are correct.

That God wants certain things does not mean that God will get them, of course, since God leaves the choice up to us - He does not force the issue.

But yes, everyone is given the amount of information that they need, to make a clear choice either in God’s favour, or against Him.

Keep in mind, nobody can go to Hell by accident.

So, does this mean that if someone sincerely believes in a god(s), and sincerely believes that they have chosen the right religion (on the information that they have available), and acts in accordance with that religion, they will go to heaven?

If yes, that means that successful (i.e. those that act according to their beliefs) muslims, mormons, moonies, gnostics, buddhists, sikhs, hindus, baha’i, jews, rastas, zoroastians, taoists, pantheists, and the thousands of indigenous tribal religious followers, will all go to the christian version of heaven?

 

[Logos385]

Mr. Logos, it sounds like you are in the same position as me(99% athiest).

Mhmm.

How did you come to this position?

A very similar way you did I believe (if I remember the OP correctly). I was a moderate Christian… then I finally turned a critical eye towards religion. After my 9th read of the Bible and countless discussions with friends, ministers, parents and teachers, I decided Christianity didn’t mesh with me or the world I was in. I decided it just didn’t make sense. So here I am : ).

I do not think that further discussion of the first cause argument is pointless - there may be some aspects of it that I am missing.

That’s fair. Feel free, of course, to continue along that track as long as you wish. My experience, however, is that you might have to agree to disagree : ).

I also cannot say that I have heard every argument proposed so far. Though, I have taken the arguments that I have heard into consideration when forming my worldview.

Fair, maybe I missed a few in my quick skim-through of this discussion. I’ll take another look.

Everyone is welcome in this discussion, Mr. Logos.

Of course, I just didn’t mean to speak for you unwarrantedly, that is all : ).

I’ll read this all and join in on the meat of the discussion within the next few days, looking forward to it : ).

Goodnight all.

 

[jmcrae]

If the christian god is omniscient, and created humans, then he knew at the moment of creation every choice that each person was going to make, therefore he is making every choice for us, they were made when he created us.

Non sequiter.

Just because God sees us making our choices from His POV in Eternity (He doesn’t “predict” them - he sees them as they are occurring, from His vantage point outside of our time-line - if He never creates the person, then they never make the choices, and then there is nothing for God to see him doing, since the person doesn’t exist, to be making choices - so, before God can see you making choices, He has to create you, and then you have to actually make those choices) - it does not mean that He is making those choices for us, any more than a mother who knows her child is about to throw a tantrum is thus throwing his tantrum for him, or “making him” throw a tantrum. It is the child’s choice to throw the tantrum, and he remains free to throw it or not, even when his mother already knows in advance that he’s going to do that. Her knowing about it doesn’t “force” the child to do it.

 

[jmcrae]

So, does this mean that if someone sincerely believes in a god(s), and sincerely believes that they have chosen the right religion (on the information that they have available), and acts in accordance with that religion, they will go to heaven?

Actually, if they act in accordance with the natural law that He has written on all of our hearts (do not murder, do not steal, etc.) and do their best to live their lives for the benefit of humanity, and being honest with themselves and with whatever they understand as “God” they will - yes - go to Heaven. Assuming they do nothing during their lives that would amount to “mortal sin” - something they know is wrong, which they do anyway, without being forced into it.

If yes, that means that successful (i.e. those that act according to their beliefs) muslims, mormons, moonies, gnostics, buddhists, sikhs, hindus, baha’i, jews, rastas, zoroastians, taoists, pantheists, and the thousands of indigenous tribal religious followers, will all go to the christian version of heaven?

Quite probably, yes.

 

[anon5216]

Non sequiter.

Just because God sees us making our choices from His POV in Eternity (He doesn’t “predict” them - he sees them as they are occurring, from His vantage point outside of our time-line - if He never creates the person, then they never make the choices, and then there is nothing for God to see him doing, since the person doesn’t exist, to be making choices - so, before God can see you making choices, He has to create you, and then you have to actually make those choices) - it does not mean that He is making those choices for us, any more than a mother who knows her child is about to throw a tantrum is thus throwing his tantrum for him, or “making him” throw a tantrum. It is the child’s choice to throw the tantrum, and he remains free to throw it or not, even when his mother already knows in advance that he’s going to do that. Her knowing about it doesn’t “force” the child to do it.

The mother/child analogy doesn’t hold water.

A mother does not create her children, other than her part in the random combination of genetic traits that the father also contributes to.

Human parents have nothing to do with creating the consciousness of their offspring.
(They hopefully mold its development, but they certainly don’t create it).

 

[jmcrae]

The mother/child analogy doesn’t hold water.

A mother does not create her children, other than her part in the random combination of genetic traits that the father also contributes to.

Human parents have nothing to do with creating the consciousness of their offspring.
(They hopefully mold its development, but they certainly don’t create it).

So, creating your mind means that God has to think with your mind, and take away your ability to choose?

 

[anon5216]

So, creating your mind means that God has to think with your mind, and take away your ability to choose?

God wouldn’t be taking anything away if He didn’t give it in the first place.

A created being, by nature of being created, will have the propensities that it was created with. If a car was built with wheel alignment that drifted to the right, the builder doesn’t have to drive it to know that whoever is the driver will have to struggle to not drift right.

A finite being, by nature of being finite, has limited ‘choices’.

If we were truly free to choose, we would have to be infinite beings and not be created with any propensities whatsoever.

 

[jmcrae]

God wouldn’t be taking anything away if He didn’t give it in the first place.

A created being, by nature of being created, will have the propensities that it was created with. If a car was built with wheel alignment that drifted to the right, the builder doesn’t have to drive it to know that whoever is the driver will have to struggle to not drift right.

Right, and in that case, the driver can return the car and have it repaired at the cost of the manufacturer, or else exchange it for a car that was built correctly. The driver is not held responsible for the design flaw.

Normally, though, the manufacturer creates the car in good condition - that is, according to the specifications. Whether or not it remains in good condition is up to the driver, whether he follows the manufacturer’s recommended service schedule, or not.

If he follows the schedule, the car will remain in good condition for ten years or more. If not, he’ll drive it into the ground in five years or less. It’s up to the driver.

A finite being, by nature of being finite, has limited ‘choices’.

Yes, and one of those choices is whether or not to follow God’s way of life.

If we were truly free to choose, we would have to be infinite beings and not be created with any propensities whatsoever.

I don’t see why.

 

[wasmit]

Non sequiter.

Just because God sees us making our choices from His POV in Eternity (He doesn’t “predict” them - he sees them as they are occurring, from His vantage point outside of our time-line - if He never creates the person, then they never make the choices, and then there is nothing for God to see him doing, since the person doesn’t exist, to be making choices - so, before God can see you making choices, He has to create you, and then you have to actually make those choices) - it does not mean that He is making those choices for us,

it follows from your paragraph^^ that the christian god is not omniscient, as he does not have knowledge of the result all future choices of this particular person at the time of creation of this person.

any more than a mother who knows her child is about to throw a tantrum is thus throwing his tantrum for him, or “making him” throw a tantrum. It is the child’s choice to throw the tantrum, and he remains free to throw it or not, even when his mother already knows in advance that he’s going to do that. Her knowing about it doesn’t “force” the child to do it.

This analogy is inconsistent with an omniscient god, because when the child is born, the mother does not know that he will have a tantrum on 5/9/2011 3.27pm.

 

[wasmit]

Actually, if they act in accordance with the natural law that He has written on all of our hearts (do not murder, do not steal, etc.) and do their best to live their lives for the benefit of humanity, and being honest with themselves and with whatever they understand as “God” they will - yes - go to Heaven. Assuming they do nothing during their lives that would amount to “mortal sin” - something they know is wrong, which they do anyway, without being forced into it.

Quite probably, yes.

So anyone of any belief, who lives within their personal morals, will go to christian heaven.

Does this include a person, whose conscience is moulded by the society they live in, who abuses women, keeps slaves and beats them, tortures their enemies, owns a harem of juvenile girls, commits rape, etc… , if this person believes these acts to be normal, acceptable and moral? (remember that all these examples existed in the past and were considered acceptable).

Also, Does this include agnostics and atheists?

 

[wasmit]

If yes, that means that successful (i.e. those that act according to their beliefs) muslims, mormons, moonies, gnostics, buddhists, sikhs, hindus, baha’i, jews, rastas, zoroastians, taoists, pantheists, and the thousands of indigenous tribal religious followers, will all go to the christian version of heaven?

Then why evangelise?

 

[jmcrae]

Then why evangelise?

So that people aren’t relying on blind luck to get to Heaven.

And also because, as rational beings, we like to know stuff, and we like to share our knowledge with each other. (I mean, why do scientists share information with us about their discoveries? Which have a lot less impact on our lives than information about God and Heaven? Why not just say, “Hey that’s interesting,” and then move on with their lives quietly?) Because, hey, it’s exciting news, don’t you think?

 

[wasmit]

So that people aren’t relying on blind luck to get to Heaven.

but you said earlier that anyone of any religion (or no religion) can get into christian heaven. Therefore no-one is relying on blind luck, because their current supernatural beliefs are sufficient.