New member, looking for discussion

[wasmit]

“Si comprehendis, non est Deus” (If you understand Him, He is not God)

–St. Augustine

But, keep searching. God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Eventually you will have to surrender your brilliant mind. God is not the kind of mystery one figures out, like a puzzle to be solved. He is “mystery” because there is no possible way to fully wrap your mind around Him.

Incidently, one thing that makes Christianity unique is that it is not just a way for us to seek God. It is about a God who actually seeks US out. He is seeking you, my friend.

I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach.

 

[rookieonedge]

This touches on something that can be common to Catholic, non-Christian, and atheist alike.

Regardless of any preferred religious mythology (or none),
anyone can take the path of self-inquiry.

If you believe you are an independent conscious being,
you can inquire as to who you really are.

Who is it that thinks?
Who is it that feels?
Who is it doing the believing or disbelieving?

If you believe in some part of your being existing after physical death, what is that part?
If you are not conscious of that part, then everything you are conscious of will cease to exist after death.

Just who/what are we really?

Self-awareness seems to be a part of our makeup. Even children starting around ages 3 & 4 start asking the big question: How did I get here? Who made me? and Why?
I don’t get what you mean by the last 2 sentences. In other words, you’re implying that existence after death depends on belief? That is, IF you are conscious of it? But if you are not "conscious of that part (let’s call it the soul), “then everything you are conscious of will cease to exist after death?”
First of all, do I read you right?
I would say ask an apologist, but IMOHO, I think the soul is the part of a human being that is immortal–lives on after death–whether we are conscious of it or not, like in cases whereby a person is comatose or in a vegetative state. They are not conscious of themselves as such even though they were at some point in their lives. Besides, after death, according to the Faith, we are transformed. Self-awareness is not lost.
Anyhow, that makes sense to me.

 

[wasmit]

How does God change human decisions?

God created the humans. God gave humans power to choose. It is the humans who “create” the decisions. Not God.

If I make a painting, it is not God making the painting - it’s me.
(More is the pity, since I think they would turn out a lot better, if it were Him and not me choosing where on the canvas to dab the paint. )

God created me, and God created the raw materials from which the canvas and paints were made. But it is human beings who thought of making canvas and paint, and it was me who thought of using the canvas and paint to make a painting.

God created the world, together with the raw materials that ultimately become a painting. But God is not making the painting, and God cannot be blamed, if it turns out badly.

It seems that the many replies have taken us away from the core of the matter. if I show my resoning step by step, can you show where you disagree and why? Here goes.

1. Assume an omnipotent omniscient god that created all humans.
2. he knows everything that occurred at all times, past, present and future. He can change anything at any time. (omniscience, omnipotence)
3. He can change a future event by changing any prior cause of that event. (omnipotence)
4. At the moment of creation of humans, he knew every decision that every human would make. (omniscience)
5. At the moment of creation of humans, he could have changed any decision made by any human by editing the act of creation of humans. (omnipotence, 3)
6. Further, he must have consciously chosen each decision, as even if god created all humans and then did nothing further, he was tacitly agreeing to all future decisions, as he knew about them. (5, omniscience)
7. each decision that is ever made by humans was therefore made by god in the act of creation, as he had the power to change any decision, therefore he chose the outcome of every decision.(5 and 6)
8. every decision that is ever made by humans was actually made by god (7)
9. there is no free will.

 

[wasmit]

I agree with you; I was just asking Was to get him to think about his arguments revolving (tediously) around God’s attributes, being all-knowing and all-powerful, yet respecting our free will.

My question which I posted earlier concerns how God answers prayer without interfering with one of His creatures. For example, when praying for someone’s conversion, how do our prayers aid in that person’s conversion? Is God working undercover to change that person’s mind or bend it in His direction although that person’s will is not turned towards His will? In other words, is He changing that person’s will? And is this in agreement with free will? (I know this question stems from Was’ arguments).

The prayers don’t actually do anything that affects the other person.

 

[onelife1]

I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach, as opposed to unsubstantiated claims like this.

I was in mortal sin… …which is pretty much atheist. so, having no grace from God…I lived in this mortal state. I hated the way I had become…I was living in this hell of mortal sin. So, I wanted to die.
Ok, we all have a free will…right. Well, I screwed my free will up. I chose the wrong path in life. I married before even knowing myself.
Anyway, no one can fully comprehend God…he is a mysterious God. I do know, God wants you to come as you are and walk in faith. Read more of Jesus’ life…and ask for his guidance. God is everywhere…be in nature…and do things in life they way Jesus’ would. This is how one see’s God!
I pray for you to have a new outlook about God, our creator

 

[wasmit]

I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach

 

[onelife1]

I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach

Childlike faith

You need to pray with childlike faith. A person with childlike faith expects prayers to be answered. The sophisticated person says “That will not happen”. Remember the words of the Archangel Gabriel to the Blessed Virgin Mary regarding her relative Elizabeth who was expecting a baby for the first time in her old age and who people called barren: With God all things are possible" (Luke 1:37).

 

[onelife1]

Originally Posted by wasmit forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach

**Expectant faith **

When you pray for a favour expect results. The following story stretches the point a bit, but will help you get the general idea. A parish priest in outback Australia was greatly concerned about the extended drought. He informed his parishioners that a novena was going to be held to pray for rain. On the first day of the novena all the farmers and their families came to the church. The parish priest looked around in disgust. He then went up to the microphone and made the following announcement. “What a lack of faith! You have all come here to pray for rain and not one of you brought an umbrella!”

 

[onelife1]

**Originally Posted by wasmit http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach
**

A sign to an unbelieving world

If a miracle is worked and is plainly obvious to an unbeliever, this places him in the position of being able to rethink his ideas in regard to the existence of God and God’s place in his life.

 

[onelife1]

Originally Posted by wasmit forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif **
I’m looking for more of an evedential based approach**

**Expectant faith **

When you pray for a favour expect results. The following story stretches the point a bit, but will help you get the general idea. A parish priest in outback Australia was greatly concerned about the extended drought. He informed his parishioners that a novena was going to be held to pray for rain. On the first day of the novena all the farmers and their families came to the church. The parish priest looked around in disgust. He then went up to the microphone and made the following announcement. “What a lack of faith! You have all come here to pray for rain and not one of you brought an umbrella!”

**The Will of God **

When you ask God for a favour or miracle that you hope to receive, you must be prepared to say, and really mean it “Your will be done”. This is the way that Jesus prayed to His Father in the garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:29).

God may grant exactly what you ask for, or something more appropriate. Regarding this Our Lord asks us in the Gospels “What father among you would give stones when asked for bread, or a serpent, when asked for a fish?” God knows exactly what you need (Luke 11:11).

 

[onelife1]

Bathe seven times in the Jordan – simplicity of prayer

Many simple novenas obtain stunning results. One man, mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible, was asked to bathe seven times in the Jordan, in order to be healed of his illness. He was disgusted by such a simple instruction. He wanted to bathe in one of the “better quality rivers” in his own country (4 Kings 5:10). Simple novenas said with faith achieve good results. Complicated novenas are not necessary.

 

[onelife1]

What was the main purpose of Our Lord’s miracles during His public ministry?

The main purpose of Our Lord’s miracles during his public Ministry was the confirmation of his teaching and proof of his divinity. This was also the main purpose of the miracles which were performed by the Apostles. Acts 5:12, Mark 16:20. When our Lord says “Your faith has saved you”, it must be remembered that this is supernatural faith, grace given by God, not the person’s merely thinking correctly about things.

 

[onelife1]

**
**

Offering up suffering

Sometimes offering up your suffering in union with the passion and death of Our Lord can bring about alleviation or even the entire healing of a sickness or situation

 

[anon5216]

anon5216;4801958:

…
If you believe in some part of your being existing after physical death, what is that part?
If you are not conscious of that part, then everything you are conscious of will cease to exist after death.

Just who/what are we really?

Self-awareness seems to be a part of our makeup. Even children starting around ages 3 & 4 start asking the big question: How did I get here? Who made me? and Why?
I don’t get what you mean by the last 2 sentences. In other words, you’re implying that existence after death depends on belief? That is, IF you are conscious of it? But if you are not "conscious of that part (let’s call it the soul), “then everything you are conscious of will cease to exist after death?”
First of all, do I read you right?

Using the word ‘soul’ is quite reasonable.
Am I saying the soul only continues to exist IF a person is conscious of it? No.

I would say ask an apologist, but IMOHO, I think the soul is the part of a human being that is immortal–lives on after death–whether we are conscious of it or not, like in cases whereby a person is comatose or in a vegetative state. They are not conscious of themselves as such even though they were at some point in their lives. Besides, after death, according to the Faith, we are transformed. Self-awareness is not lost.
Anyhow, that makes sense to me.

It sounds like you agree that the soul, (and not the mind, the emotions, the body, etc.)
is the part that is immortal.

I’m saying that the mind, the emotions, the body, etc. do cease to exist upon physical death.
It therefore follows that if all a person is conscious of, is their body/emotions/mind, then everything they are aware of does cease to exist after physical death.

Remember, if we agree that the soul is the only part of a human being that is immortal, then not knowing that part of ourselves is tantamount to not knowing the most important thing possible.

 

[Caul]

Hi, welcome to board ! I am pretty new to this forum.Looking here for intract with others.

 

[jmcrae]

It seems that the many replies have taken us away from the core of the matter. if I show my resoning step by step, can you show where you disagree and why? Here goes.

1. Assume an omnipotent omniscient god that created all humans.
2. he knows everything that occurred at all times, past, present and future. He can change anything at any time. (omniscience, omnipotence)

Not if he has already created a law that states that we have free will. He does not violate His own laws.

1. He can change a future event by changing any prior cause of that event. (omnipotence)

Once the thing is created, it exists from start to finish. If God were to change something in your past, the you that is now (and thus, the you that has been you from the time of your conception) would cease to exist - would cease, indeed, ever to have existed. God doesn’t do that. Once you are created, that’s it. He doesn’t go back and edit your life - He doesn’t “un-create” you and replace you with a look-alike that made different decisions.

1. At the moment of creation of humans, he knew every decision that every human would make. (omniscience)

Yes.

1. At the moment of creation of humans, he could have changed any decision made by any human by editing the act of creation of humans. (omnipotence, 3)

But chooses not to, because of the gift of free will. He doesn’t manipulate us into making particular decisions. He sets the paths before us, and allows us to choose freely.

1. Further, he must have consciously chosen each decision, as even if god created all humans and then did nothing further, he was tacitly agreeing to all future decisions, as he knew about them. (5, omniscience)

He has revealed to us His law. (The ten commandments, etc.) But we are free to violate them. Of course, when we choose to violate them, we set ourselves on a path away from communion with Him. But He does not manipulate us into choosing Him. He wants us to choose Him freely, because He doesn’t want puppets - He wants lovers.

1. each decision that is ever made by humans was therefore made by god in the act of creation, as he had the power to change any decision, therefore he chose the outcome of every decision.(5 and 6)

No. God sets out the paths. He says, “I have set before you life and death. Therefore, choose life.” But He does not force us to choose the way of life. We are free, if we want to, to choose the way of death. He will not interfere.

1. every decision that is ever made by humans was actually made by god (7)

Wrong.

1. there is no free will.

Wrong.

 

[steve_b]

It seems that the many replies have taken us away from the core of the matter. if I show my resoning step by step, can you show where you disagree and why? Here goes.

The problem is, you’ve insisted on taking the secular atheistic approach expecting to stay with only evidentiary proof. And expect others to do the same. You have met disagreement and reasons were given. I suspect you’ve looked up the causes of the effects you previously thought needed no causes and THAT’s why you didn’t respond.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4803244&postcount=352
was:

[snip] #'s 1-7

1. every decision that is ever made by humans was actually made by god
2. there is no free will.

If we didn’t have free will, we would NOT be culpable for anything we do…right OR wrong.

If we didn’t have free will, there would be NO sin or even degrees of right or wrong. Anymore than an animal has such a restriction.

But that’s NOT how it is for humanity.

[Deut 30:19]

" I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life …,"

The fact God wants us to choose correctly, and He already knows what we’ll choose before we make our choices, doesn’t mean we have no free will to make those choices… We really DO have free will to choose otherwise that statement “choose life” given the options, would make no sense… And as a result, unlike animals, we are responsible for our choices.

What your # 8 has done is basically show you don’t understand God, OR the faith you once claim to have had and left.

I’ve heard it said that atheism isn’t an intellectual problem as much as it’s a moral problem within the individual.

Is that true?

 

[rookieonedge]

It seems that the many replies have taken us away from the core of the matter. if I show my resoning step by step, can you show where you disagree and why? Here goes.

1. Assume an omnipotent omniscient god that created all humans.
2. he knows everything that occurred at all times, past, present and future. He can change anything at any time. (omniscience, omnipotence)
3. He can change a future event by changing any prior cause of that event. (omnipotence)
4. At the moment of creation of humans, he knew every decision that every human would make. (omniscience)
5. At the moment of creation of humans, he could have changed any decision made by any human by editing the act of creation of humans. (omnipotence, 3)
6. Further, he must have consciously chosen each decision, as even if god created all humans and then did nothing further, he was tacitly agreeing to all future decisions, as he knew about them. (5, omniscience)
7. each decision that is ever made by humans was therefore made by god in the act of creation, as he had the power to change any decision, therefore he chose the outcome of every decision.(5 and 6)
8. every decision that is ever made by humans was actually made by god (7)
9. there is no free will.

Although the post wasn’t addressed to me, I can’t help but comment that I agree with all your postulates up to #6.
Instead, I would say that “he must have consciously” WILLED “each decision” (in the mode of ACCEPTANCE of our human choices, which He would use for good and for His glory). Yes, He had the power to change any decision (and He must do this somehow in answer to prayer); “therefore,” He WILLED “the outcome of every decision.”
The word WILLED does not mean CHOSE ("the outcome of every decision.)
#8. “every decision that is ever made by humans was actually” WILLED “by God.”
#9. There is free will. It fits in with God’s WILL, his ultimate plan. If humans had chosen NOT to sin, the outcome of God’s WILL would be different.
#10. Again. . . ask an apologist.

Actually, Mr. Wasmit, I originally thought it was you doing the trolling on this thread. Perhaps my first impression was incorrect.

 

[rookieonedge]

The prayers don’t actually do anything that affects the other person.

How do you know? Do you have some esoteric knowlege the rest of us are not privy to?

Do you believe in something that you have no proof of?

 

[onelife1]

youtube.com/watch?v=gtkotAWI2Ug&feature=player_embedded

This is for inspiration