New Movie on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre

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hmmm…this could be good, or it could be very devisive, ruining the very small gains made since the schism. I pray this is a movie looking at both sides and how we may come closer not farther apart.
 
I hope it would help us know more on the personality of Archbishop Lefebvre.

only history would judge the acts of Archbishop Lefebvre, imagine that this would be a great fight between two holy men of God. Archbishop Lefebvre and Pope John Paul II, both loyal to the Church, One was excommunicated yet preserved the ancient teaching of the Church by using the Old Rite, the Other one, the Holy Pope of Rome, Implementing an Ecumenical Council decision.

Who is the true saint? or both of them, is this possible? This will be one great fight. Only history would decide.
Brian777 said:
hmmm…this could be good, or it could be very devisive, ruining the very small gains made since the schism. I pray this is a movie looking at both sides and how we may come closer not farther apart.
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marlo said:
I hope it would help us know more on the personality of Archbishop Lefebvre.

only history would judge the acts of Archbishop Lefebvre, imagine that this would be a great fight between two holy men of God. Archbishop Lefebvre and Pope John Paul II, both loyal to the Church, One was excommunicated yet preserved the ancient teaching of the Church by using the Old Rite, the Other one, the Holy Pope of Rome, Implementing an Ecumenical Council decision.

Who is the true saint? or both of them, is this possible? This will be one great fight. Only history would decide.
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“Holy Men of God” actually abide by ecclesial judgments. (IOW, if you are restricted from celebrating Mass, then you don’t do it)
 
Onegin said:
I take it you are not familiar with the story of St. Athanasius then?
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I am fairly new to the faith. Excuse me if I am not intimately familiar with the biographies of 3000+ saints. That being said, refusal to submit to legitimate authority is frowned upon. There are precedents for such a thing, but must be considered the exception, not the rule. I put Lefebvre in the same camp as Luther. Difference being that Luther reconciled with the Church before his death.
 
CWBetts said:
I am fairly new to the faith. Excuse me if I am not intimately familiar with the biographies of 3000+ saints. That being said, refusal to submit to legitimate authority is frowned upon. There are precedents for such a thing, but must be considered the exception, not the rule. I put Lefebvre in the same camp as Luther. Difference being that Luther reconciled with the Church before his death.
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When exactly did Luther reconcile with the Church? I was unaware that he ever did such a thing. In fact shortly before his death he published a gem of a treatsie entitled “Against the Papacy established by the Devil”.

Doesn’t sound like he reconciled to me.
 
palmas85 said:
When exactly did Luther reconcile with the Church? I was unaware that he ever did such a thing. In fact shortly before his death he published a gem of a treatsie entitled “Against the Papacy established by the Devil”.

Doesn’t sound like he reconciled to me.
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He received the Sacraments on his deathbed.
 
CWBetts said:
I am fairly new to the faith. Excuse me if I am not intimately familiar with the biographies of 3000+ saints. That being said, refusal to submit to legitimate authority is frowned upon. There are precedents for such a thing, but must be considered the exception, not the rule. I put Lefebvre in the same camp as Luther. Difference being that Luther reconciled with the Church before his death.
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As a new member to the faith, I would highly suggest reading about the life of St. Athanasius of Alexandria (“Father of Orthodoxy”) who was persecuted by the Church for refusing to embrace the novelty of Arianism. It was only after enduring persecution and exile that Athanasius was recognized as a holy man for remaining faithful to Catholic Tradition. At one point in his letters, St. Athanasius wrote:

*“How are they of the Catholic Church, who have shaken off the Apostolical faith, and become authors of fresh evils?” *

Martin Luther, on the other hand, rather than disagreeing with Rome where it departed from tradition, bitterly hated the Pope and hated the Mass. He insulted the Saints of the Church stating:

*“I believe and confess that the popish Mass is an invention and ordinance of man, a sacrifice of Antichrist… and that it is a stinking and infected sepulchre, which hideth and covereth the merit of the blood of Christ; and therefore ought the Mass to be abolished.”
  • (Martin Luther, Against Henry King of England, Werke, Vol 10, pg 220).
Your comparison of Msgr. Lefebvre to Martin Luther, a heretic and blasphemer of the Church, is both illogical and insulting.

I hope this information can prove helpful. When I was in college, I often overheard students compare Msgr. Lefebvre to Luther, not understanding that such a comparison is unjust. The acts of defiance taken by Msgr. Lefebvre was an act was done out of devotion to the Church and her Tradition and the act of defiance taken by Martin Luther was done out of contempt and loathing for the Catholic faith.

Please choose your words carefully.
 
Onegin said:
As a new member to the faith, I would highly suggest reading about the life of St. Athanasius of Alexandria (“Father of Orthodoxy”) who was persecuted by the Church for refusing to embrace the novelty of Arianism. It was only after enduring persecution and exile that Athanasius was recognized as a holy man for remaining faithful to Catholic Tradition. At one point in his letters, St. Athanasius wrote:

*“How are they of the Catholic Church, who have shaken off the Apostolical faith, and become authors of fresh evils?” *

Martin Luther, on the other hand, rather than disagreeing with Rome where it departed from tradition, bitterly hated the Pope and hated the Mass. He insulted the Saints of the Church stating:

*“I believe and confess that the popish Mass is an invention and ordinance of man, a sacrifice of Antichrist… and that it is a stinking and infected sepulchre, which hideth and covereth the merit of the blood of Christ; and therefore ought the Mass to be abolished.”
  • (Martin Luther, Against Henry King of England, Werke, Vol 10, pg 220).
Your comparison of Msgr. Lefebvre to Martin Luther, a heretic and blasphemer of the Church, is both illogical and insulting.

I hope this information can prove helpful. When I was in college, I often overheard students compare Msgr. Lefebvre to Luther, not understanding that such a comparison is unjust. The acts of defiance taken by Msgr. Lefebvre was an act was done out of devotion to the Church and her Tradition and the act of defiance taken by Martin Luther was done out of contempt and loathing for the Catholic faith.

Please choose your words carefully.
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Does not change the simple fact that Lefebvre outright disobeyed ecclesial authority. St. Athanasius, from what I read was not excommunicated, nor did he have any kind of ecclesial judgment from the Pope. I stand by my comparison to Luther.
 
CWBetts said:
Does not change the simple fact that Lefebvre outright disobeyed ecclesial authority. St. Athanasius, from what I read was not excommunicated, nor did he have any kind of ecclesial judgment from the Pope. I stand by my comparison to Luther.
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You just indicated to me in the post prior that you’d never read anything on the life of St. Athanasius.

In any event, Pope Liberius issued a decree excommunicating Athanasisus with the support of the Arian bishops. The irony is that Pope Liberius was the first Pope not to make it on the Roman Martyrology and Athanasius is a saint.

The fact that you persist in comparing Msgr. Lefebvre to a man who hated the Church, the Mass and compared the Pope to the antichrist, suggests that you are responding out of emotion and not reason. I highly suggest reading at least a short biography of St. Athanasius and also St. Eusebius of Samosata rather than persisting in arguing with me.

Holy men have denied ecclesiastical authority in the past when that authority has contradicted Tradition.
 
Onegin said:
You just indicated to me in the post prior that you’d never read anything on the life of St. Athanasius.

In any event, Pope Liberius issued a decree excommunicating Athanasisus with the support of the Arian bishops.

The fact that you persist in comparing Msgr. Lefebvre to a man who hated the Church, the Mass and compared the Pope to the antichrist, suggests that you are responding out of emotion and not reason. I highly suggest reading at least a short biography of St. Athanasius and also St. Eusebius of Samosata rather than persisting in arguing with me.
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In the short bio I read I missed that…but anyways, HE CAME BACK TO THE CHURCH. THE SCHISMATIC LEFEBVRE DID NOT OUT OF SHEER ARROGANCE
 
CWBetts said:
In the short bio I read I missed that…but anyways, HE CAME BACK TO THE CHURCH. THE SCHISMATIC LEFEBVRE DID NOT OUT OF SHEER ARROGANCE
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Dude, chill! Or at least, let me use caps lock too:

Athanasius came back to the Church AFTER THE CHURCH REJECTED THE ARIAN HERESY AND RETURNED TO TRADITION.

I’m not sure why you despise Msgr. Lefebvre so much but it’s becoming increasingly apparent that your reactions are purely emotional. You didn’t pick that up at Steubenville did you? I’m a Franciscan alum, but I don’t recall this level of disdain when I was there.
 
Onegin said:
Dude, chill! Or at least, let me use caps lock too:

Athanasius came back to the Church AFTER THE CHURCH REJECTED THE ARIAN HERESY AND RETURNED TO TRADITION.

I’m not sure why you despise Msgr. Lefebvre so much but it’s becoming increasingly apparent that your reactions are purely emotional. You didn’t pick that up at Steubenville did you? I’m a Franciscan alum, but I don’t recall this level of disdain when I was there.
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Call me crazy, but I get annoyed by arrogant, self-righteous schismatics that, through their actions, indicate that the are exempt from humble submission to the Holy See.
 
CWBetts said:
Call me crazy, but I get annoyed by arrogant, self-righteous schismatics that, through their actions, indicate that the are exempt from humble submission to the Holy See.
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Did you know Msgr Lefebvre personally? I have read nothing written or attributed him that indicates an attitude of either arrogance or self-righteousness. Perhaps you are privvy to some special knowledge?

However, if you are basing your conclusions about his character off of his actions in disobeying ecclesiastical authority, then all I can say is that you probably would have been in line with the bishops, Rome and most of the Catholic world who thought the same of Athanasius.

This quote below from St. Athanasius was relevant then and it is still relavent today:

“The Church has not just recently been given order and statutes. They were faithfully and soundly bestowed on it by the Fathers. Nor has the faith only just been established, but it has come to us from the Lord through His disciples. May what has been preserved in the Churches from the beginning to the present day not be abandoned in our time; may what has been entrusted into our keeping not be embezzled by us. Brethren, as custodians of God’s mysteries, let yourselves be roused into action on seeing all this despoiled by others.” - St. Athanasius (Letters)
 
My personal interaction with Abp. Lefebvre, was of a humble and holy man who really did not like being put into the position that he was put into. He would be embarrased by anyone who put him on a par with St. Athanasius. Most of his final years were spent with very little outside of ordinations in activly directing the SSPX. He spent much time making retreats at the Monastic Community that had aligned themselves with the SSPX, did not join the community for meals, but ate in the kitchen with those who were assigned to duties waiting tables, and washing up after, speaking with them of the simplicity of the Faith. The last couple of years, I was not longer associated with the SSPX, and Econe, but I hear from friends (some) who remain in the SSPX, that he was physically and mentally tired, and easily manipulated by those who had risen to power in the Socitey. While I was not in Econe at the time of the Illicit Consecrations, I am told that that was another point at which he was pressured by the new leadership that he had to mistrust and stand firm against Rome. These same men, still within the SSPX today relate their lament that he was paraded around in public, sometimes unaware of where he was and what he was doing near the end of his life. They tell me that they cannot make public statements for fear of retaliations from the hard-line leadership.
 
CWBetts said:
He received the Sacraments on his deathbed.
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I would like to see a citation on that one. It is not listed in the Catholic encyclopedia, I’m sure it would have been and I have never seen it anywhere else.Where exactly did you find out this monumental news?
 
CWBetts said:
Call me crazy, but I get annoyed by arrogant, self-righteous schismatics that, through their actions, indicate that the are exempt from humble submission to the Holy See.
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Quite simply, you have no idea what you’re talking about. In cases like this Christians, in charity, generally assume the best. Instead you have rushed into making stupid assumptions and assumed the worst where Christian charity ought to have prevailed. God bless.
 
One can hardly compare the actions of St. Athanasius in the early centuries of the Church, when doctrine had not yet been orderly and logically discerned, with the actions of a late 20th century bishop who had been raised and educated in the constant and consistent traditions of the faith. As said before, a good religious should follow the orders of his superior as the rule, not the actions of one person centuries ago as the exception.

While I personally think the Archbishop was in the wrong for doing what he did, I do believe that he may not have had the fullness of mind to realize just exactly what he was doing. Whenever there are groups who are bent on making things “their way” there are always those who will work behind the scenes that use and manipulate those who they can use for their own ends. Filioque’s testimony suggests that the Archbishop just may have been a victim of those around him.
 
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