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giuseppeTO
Guest
Betts, what planet are you from? Luther died a heretic and his bowels burst asunder as a punishment from God.
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CWBetts
Guest
Of course I can’t expect anything except for such ridiculous polemics from the SSPX.
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Abenadar
Guest
Ridiculous polemics from the SSPX to match the ridiculous accusations from the other side.
Has anybody found that citation about Luther yet??? I would truly love to hear that he returned before the end, but this is the first I’ve heard of it.
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Onegin
Guest
Also, I don’t know about you guys but I’m pretty sure I haven’t read the latest work by Lefebvre entitled “On the Papacy at Rome, Founded by the Devil.”
Oh wait, that was Luther.
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Timothysis
Guest
While I don’t exactly remember the details, I do remember reading that Luther, towards the end of his life, supposedly said that he wished everyone would forget everything he wrote and practice the faith in the same ways as the early Church.
Perhaps this is part of what CWBetts is referring.
Perhaps this is part of what CWBetts is referring.
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Abenadar
Guest
Nevertheless, the SSPX as well as canon lawyers on the other side have acceded the possibility of his case. Moreover, Lefebvre’s actions had their root in obedience to the Faith and obedience to God even if they come accross as disobedience to the pope. And even if he were mistaken…Well, you know that canon law allows for that as well.
By no means am I saying all religious should strive to combat their superiors on every issue…But there are issues that Abp. Lefebvre believed were important enough to do so.
But her superior probably wasn’t telling her to do something that could very well damage not only her faith, but also the faith of literally millions of souls…And it’s not as though Lefebvre loved disobedience.
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Abenadar
Guest
Perhaps…But isn’t antiquarianism also an error?
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Timothysis
Guest
You know, when you get right down to it, it seems damn near everything is condemned as an error. It gets to the point that it is nearly absurd.
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palmas85
Guest
Tim please, less than a year before his death Luther puy forth a truly vitrolic attack on the papacy titled “Against the Papacy established by the Devil”. . You should read it. And if after you have read it you still believe this statement that Luther supposedly said, then I guess nothing will convince you otherwise…
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cyberwolf001
Guest
So why can you insult whomever you want?
Also I can’t believe your defending a man that broke your church inhalf (he was never reconciled, just a rumor that pops up now and then) while bashing a man that tried to save it…
I just can’t get you folks somedays. You got all this tradition and history yet you want to toss it, along with any that try to defend said tradition and history, right out the window.
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KC91
Guest
About the film the trailer seems rather weak as much of it is an interview with Bishop Fellay and there are no shots of an actor portraying Lefebvre
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CWBetts
Guest
I do accept tradition. But I absolutely refuse to ally myself with an excommunicate.So why can you insult whomever you want?
Also I can’t believe your defending a man that broke your church inhalf (he was never reconciled, just a rumor that pops up now and then) while bashing a man that tried to save it…
I just can’t get you folks somedays. You got all this tradition and history yet you want to toss it, along with any that try to defend said tradition and history, right out the window.
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palmas85
Guest
Still waiting on that citation concerning Luther CW. Shouldn’t be that hard to find.
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giuseppeTO
Guest
Which part of "you’re dead wrong’ do you consider polemics? The most ridiculous thing I’ve EVER seen on this board is your statement about a reconciliation of Luther with the church. I hope they’re not teaching you that at Franciscan U.
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Filioque
Guest
Thanks for bringing (or attempting to) us back to the intent of the thread. I could only gain access to the French trailer. It seemes very heavy handed, not only does the SSPX seem to canonize Abp. Lefebvre, in much the same manner they hold the Modern Rite in distain for allowing white vestments at Requiems, but the attempts at anti-Vatican slander by showing Pope John Paul II standing next to Protestant, Orthodox and Buddhists at the Assisi event, and other photos that misrepresent or are spun by the Society, without I am sure giving any plausable Catholic explanation to what the Pope was trying to accomplish.
I remember a time when the SSPX was spreading the rumor that St. Padre Pio’s body had dissapeared from his tomb in order to escape the Monsatic house at San Giovanni Rotunda where the New Mass was now being offered. The public display of his relics put an end to that. What will it take for the SSPX to pay more than lip service to the Holy See?
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CWBetts
Guest
I really need to get in touch with my priest. He is my source. And I will take anything he says, without documentation, before I trust the word of anybody from the SSPX. If you like the tradistinal form of the Mass, I suggest you go to a FSSP parish. They are actually in full communion with Rome
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Onegin
Guest
Archbishop Lefebvre is not excommunicated as excommunication is something that ceases at death. And the so-called excommunications of the remaining bishops have been lifted.
So I’m not really sure where you’re going with that.
Also, ironically enough, you seem to be allying yourself with Luther.
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CWBetts
Guest
He died without having reconciled with the Church. Think about that. Even at the end of his life he would not humble himself before the Vicar of Christ
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Onegin
Guest
So, just to be clear, you’re willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Luther but not to Lefebvre?
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giuseppeTO
Guest
You make quite a few assumptions based on a French trailer. Obviously, a film that is produced by the Society will portray the archbishop in a favorable light. What else would you expect? I would expect a film on Pope John Paul II produced by the Vatican to likewise paint the Pope in a positive light and not bring out any human failings he may have had. You will have to wait for The Fox News Network’s version for a “fair and balanced” look at both Pope and Archbishop and how they interplayed in the matter.
It is very easy to reduce issues that the Society takes with the modern church to aesthetic matters of taste and opinion, like “distain for allowing white vestments at Requiems” while the real disdain is the changing of the offering of the Mass to benefit the departed soul and the souls who suffer in Purgatory to a joyous celebration of the “near-guaranteed” arrival in heaven. That is an order of magnitude more ridiculous than your “missing Padre Pio” anecdote.
Since the joint prayer meeting at Assisi figured significantly into the events prior to the episcopal consecrations (according to his biography), it would certainly have a place in the film by way of explanation as to what convinced the archbishop that a state of crisis existed.
It would be interesting to see if the crowd of SSPX-bashers can watch a film on the archbishop objectively in an attempt to perhaps understand what would drive such a holy and long-time African missionary to such a drastic course of action. Anyone who has read the full account of the negotiations between the Archbishop and the Pope (via Cardinal Ratzinger) that lead up to the disobedient act know that the Pope agreed to allow the Society to consecrate a new bishop, although the Vatican kept postponing the date, perhaps thinking the frail Archbishop would not last and the problem of the Society and the TLM would just go away. However, given the relative closeness of an agreement in 1988 gives me hope that the current discussions will yield a reuniting outcome.
But rest assured there will still be disdain for some modernisms like the suppression of the Requiem Mass and, to be fair to the Society, you will have to associate the same emotion to the FSSP, ICK, and Good Shepard - none of whom you will find (voluntarily) offering a Mass of the Resurrection at a funeral.
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