New Order of Mass coming soon?

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Madaglan

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I recently read in an article that Rome is making some changes to the Mass to better reflect the changes that it wanted (evidentally the Mass is presently not completely to their liking.) One article I came across mentioned that a New Order of Mass would come in the first few months of 2004. Well, I don’t see any new changes in the mass. Does anyone know when the Vatican plans to further change the Mass?
 
I think what you are referring to is the new English translation of the Roman Missal (Mass) that is being currently worked on…

The Mass – the Latin Mass – which is still the universal and normative Mass in the Roman Catholic faith, was translated into various local languages after the 2nd Vatican Council, with varying success in terms of adequately translating that actual meaning and intention of the various parts of the Mass. (For example, instead of the literal Latin translation “and with your spirit” we say “and also with you”).

The committe doing the translation, ICEL, keeps promising that work is going well, but also keeps pushing out the dates for implementation. It was supposed to be finished earlier this year, then it was supposed to be this fall (ie, now), and now it looks to be at least mid-next year.

For more info do a Search in these forums for ICEL or English translation Mass or something similar – this was talked about extensively earlier this summer on here.

+veritas+
 
? Ok, I just got confused 🙂 Are you saying that there’s a committee that is translating the Latin(as in Tridentine) Mass into English and other vernacular languages, or are you talking about the Novus Ordo? If it’s the former, then are there churches in the US that celebrate the Tridentine Mass in English? Or am I just confusing myself more?
 
JRJ26 said:
? Ok, I just got confused 🙂 Are you saying that there’s a committee that is translating the Latin(as in Tridentine) Mass into English and other vernacular languages, or are you talking about the Novus Ordo? If it’s the former, then are there churches in the US that celebrate the Tridentine Mass in English? Or am I just confusing myself more?
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Just confusing yourself more. The Latin Mass refers to the Mass of the Latin Church, which is currently the rite of Pope Paul VI, or Novus Ordo. I’m not sure that one really needs to say Latin Mass, though, because the word Mass is derived from the Latin dismissal and to my knowledge is not used for the Divine Liturgies of any other rites.
 
Sorry, but I feel as though I may be a little confused.

Could you please tell me how many different Mass rites there have been and also which one is currently in practice under the Church of John Paul II?

I know that the Traditionalist Catholics use the Latin Tridentine Mass. Is the Traditionalist’s Mass the Mass held as official by the Church of John Paul II???
 
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Madaglan:
Sorry, but I feel as though I may be a little confused.

Could you please tell me how many different Mass rites there have been and also which one is currently in practice under the Church of John Paul II?

I know that the Traditionalist Catholics use the Latin Tridentine Mass. Is the Traditionalist’s Mass the Mass held as official by the Church of John Paul II???
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There have been many different Rites of the Mass. The Tridentine Latin Mass was the Mass of the Roman Rite until just after the Second Vatican Council when the current Rite (commonly called the Novus Ordo) was promulgated. The various Eastern Rites have their own liturgies.

The official language of the current Mass is Latin, but it has been allowed to be translated into vernacular languages.

ICEL is the group that translated the current rite into English, but there are criticisms because it is an inaccurate translation in certain respects. Hence there is a new translation that is being circulated among the bishops awaiting their approval.

Some of the changes include:

Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: And with your spirit.

In the Creed, “I believe in one God…” vice “We believe in one God…”

In the Penitential Rite, there is also talk of restoring the “through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault” to be more faithful to the official Latin, “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.”

Does that answer your question?
 
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Madaglan:
Sorry, but I feel as though I may be a little confused.

Could you please tell me how many different Mass rites there have been and also which one is currently in practice under the Church of John Paul II?

I know that the Traditionalist Catholics use the Latin Tridentine Mass. Is the Traditionalist’s Mass the Mass held as official by the Church of John Paul II???
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The current rite of Mass in the Latin Church is that promulgated by Pope Paul VI. When the translation of the new Missal of John Paul II is completed, it will become the current rite of Mass. Additionally, John Paul II has given an indult (permission) for the Mass to be celebrated according to the Missal of 1962. This is also known as the Tridentine or the Traditional Latin Mass.
 
Ok - in the Roman Catholic Church there are two primary Masses.
  1. The Traditional Latin Mass. This is the Order of Mass that was celebrated throughout the Roman Catholic Church until after the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s (sometimes also called the Mass of the 1962 Missal). This Mass, besides looking different from the modern Mass, can *only *be celebrated in the Latin language (apart from the reading/homily). This Mass can only be celebrated today with proper permission. Unfortunately, there are some independent churches (the SSPX group for example) that deny the authority of Rome and the current Pope. So you need to be careful when you go to a Traditional Mass – make sure that the parish is truly Roman Catholic and believes that John Paul II is the Pope, and has the proper permission to be celebrating this Mass.
  2. The New (Current) Mass (commonly and incorrectly called the “Novus Ordo”, or “New Order” of Mass). This is the Mass that is celebrated throughout the world, in numerous languages (English for most of us in the USA), and the one that you most likely attend every Sunday at your local parish. However – Latin is still the official language of the Church, all other languages (including English) are individually permitted to be used in the celebration of Mass. But, the Mass itself still has its origin in the Latin Missal. When the revised Order of Mass was developed in the year 2000, it was done in Latin.
After completion and promulgation, the task of translating the revised Order of Mass into the various vernacular languages (including English) went into full swing. This, then, is the ICEL translation we have referred to – the translation of the Order of Mass out of the normative (original, lawful) Latin language and into English. The translation must be approved by Rome before it is allowed to be put into usage, which is why it is taking so long.

(Hoping this didn’t muddy the waters any more for you… :o )

+veritas+
 
ah, thanks, that really helped.

I think that there really needs to be a new translation that follows the Latin more. The “The Lord be with you. R: and with your spirit” part really is beautiful, and reminds me of the Divine Liturgy I attended last year(they use the same words).
 
Ah ok. Thanks for your help. By the way, why was the Novus Ordo Mass established if the Tridentine Mass was held for so long? Why couldn’t they just translate the Tridentine Mass into different common tongues instead of creating the Novus Ordo Mass and then translating it into common tongues?
 
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Madaglan:
Why couldn’t they just translate the Tridentine Mass into different common tongues instead of creating the Novus Ordo Mass and then translating it into common tongues?
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JMJ + OBT​
Good question, really!

The answer is as big as the vast umbrella that was/is the liturgical renewal that began in the mid-1800s and has continued to the present day.

Basically, there was an understanding that dominated the mindset of the chief artichects of the top-level liturgical reform under Paul VI and John XXIII which understood various elements of the Tridentine Missal to be “late” in terms of historical development, and too Roman (that is originating literally in Rome) to have a proper place in the future “restored” Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church.

The present Missal is supposed to be more like the Divine Liturgy of Western Catholics going back to the early centuries.

Is it? I really don’t know, and haven’t completed enough personal study to hold a well-formed opinion. Of course, I will give the benefit of the doubt and my loyalty to John Paul II, his predecessors and successors.

But, again, this is a great question! What’s more interesting, I think, is the possibility that a future retro-reform might move us back towards a “more Tridentine” Missal, though it would almost certainly be in the vernacular. But how would that work? How would it happen? How would it be received? Etc.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA
 
+veritas+:
…2) The New (Current) Mass (commonly and incorrectly called the "Novus Ordo", . . .
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Thank you! I tire of hearing the term, when there is really no such thing as the “novus ordo!”
 
+veritas+:
…2) The New (Current) Mass (commonly and incorrectly called the "Novus Ordo", . . .
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Thank you! I tire of hearing the term, when there is really no such thing as the “novus ordo!”
 
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JimG:
Thank you! I tire of hearing the term, when there is really no such thing as the “novus ordo!”
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While it may not be an official name for the current order of Mass, Novus Ordo is rather accurate in that it has only existed for 34 years as compared to the 400 of its predecessor. On that time scale, it’s still fairly new. It also helps differentiate the current ordo from the other Latin ordo still being celebrated - that of 1962.
 
Just to clarify, the Traditional Latin Mass is older than 400 years. The 400 number usually is in terms of from the period period of the Council of Trent to Vatican II. The Concil of Trent did “reform” as Pope St. Pius V and the Council of Trent and “removed all those accretions that had been added (to the Mass) from the fifth century onwards.”
 
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JRJ26:
ah, thanks, that really helped.

I think that there really needs to be a new translation that follows the Latin more. The “The Lord be with you. R: and with your spirit” part really is beautiful, and reminds me of the Divine Liturgy I attended last year(they use the same words).
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If you ever hear the Mass of the current missal said in Latin (the Masses on EWTN, for example), the Latin hasn’t changed from the 1962 Missal:

P: Dominus Vobiscum
R: Et cum spiritus tuo

Of course in the TLM the altar servers (and generally not the congregation) would make the response.

Personally, I’m looking forward to a more faithful translation. I agree with you that “and with your spirit” has a much more poetic ring than “and also with you”. Perhaps this and the other changes mentioned (especially in the Penitential Rite – would we go back to striking our breast 3 times?) would help foster a greater sense of reverence during the Mass.
 
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