New Orleans police sent to arrest parishioners

[igator99]

Pretty sad the diocese is closing these churches. Some are self efficient but are not turning enough of a profit. Others are not since Katrina and I can understand them being closed. It is like a business.

wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl010609cbparishioners.4431c43d.html

 

[ForMary]

It is sad indeed, I will pray for those who are involved and hope that they find comfort in God.

 

[Lancer]

The first response to the gift (grace) of faith is…obedience (Bonhoeffer)…to Christ and to his Church (the Pope, his vicar on earth, and the Bishops, the successors to his apostles, when in communion with the Pope and the Magisterium).

Nothing less suffices. So when these parishioners have made their case and their bishop has heard them…and considered their position/request…once he has made his decision…they must be obedient. Period.

Without a bishop…a successor to the apostles…there is no Church of New Orleans…there are no sacraments. Everything we need and receive as Catholics in Diocese of New Orleans or elsewhere flows from the bishop’s ecclesiastical authority (pastors, priests, deacons, consecrated religious and lay ministers all must receive their authority from the bishop…and act in his name and authority) …and even when we disagree, we must obey the bishop (given that he is teaching – faith and morals – in communion with the Pope and the Magisterium and acting within the bounds of his ecclesiastical authority as the Bishop of the Church of New Orleans).

If I can say it this way respectfully and not be irreverent…in the terms of the corporal world and the temporal world…Jesus was “nearly insane” in being singularly focused on obedience to His Father’s will…obedience is the hallmark virtue of his life…the fruit of his love for his Father and his love for each of us (to save us and make us children of God). (He told his apostles that doing the will of the Father (obedience) was his food.…not just a good thing to do…but the food which sustains his life (Jn 4:34).

I wish they did not have to see their parish closed…but I don’t have much sympathy for these fellow Catholics in New Orleans…I feel sorry for them because fail to see how much more they still have compared to so many other Catholics both here in the mission areas of our country and especially in the Universal Church in second/third world areas.

(Take a look at this article to see how blessed most of us are in diocese-church resources:
catholicextension.org/extension-magazine/ ).

It is sad to see many of our venerable old churches, schools, seminaries and convents closed…but its not like they (these parishioners) are going to be denied a place (very close by) to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and receive the sacraments, etc… In a 15 month deployment to Iraq as a combat infantry medic…my son got to go to Mass and receive Holy Communion 6 times…due to a severe shortage or priest-chaplains and Mass times in conflict with his duty/patrol schedule. The Sacrament of reconciliation was always in the general confession and general absolution mode…no time for individual and integral confessions until he returned to Kuwait or the USA…and this was the situation for a young man that saw death and violence almost every day…never knowing when a bullet or IED might end his life…and most of the time no priests with them. May God bless in abundance the few priest-chaplains and their protestant brother/sister ministers that were there during the worse times in Iraq and the incredible sacrifices they have and are still making to help our Catholic soldiers and Marines and our fellow Protestant Christians.

Pax Christi

 

[Dale_M]

From the blog of Poppy Z. Brite who mentioned one cop was rude.

Parishioner Hunter Harris and I slipped into the pews and began to pray. They hauled us out, cuffed our hands behind our backs, and escorted us out to the police car. I walked because I didn’t want them to hurt my back, but Hunter went limp and was dragged, losing his shoes. You can read the story and watch the news video, including us being led away in handcuffs, here and here (same news, different versions).

Other than the one guy, the police were obviously embarrassed and ashamed to be doing this, and they couldn’t have been nicer to us. The young lady from the city attorney’s office who led me out was almost crying, and I actually found myself comforting her: “We know it’s not your fault.” We were taken to Central Lockup, a cavernous but clean room with blaring TVs and various desks where you had to jump through the legal hoops. We were both charged with “criminal trespassing and resisting arrest.” They never put us in a cell, just let us sit in the holding room until Judge Frank Marullo signed our release an hour or so later. I think my mug shot came out all right, especially considering that I hadn’t even had coffee yet. Chris says I look “sardonic,” and I felt pretty damn sardonic:

Shortly after we were taken away, parishioner Harold Baquet was arrested too. As you can see in the news story, Harold is a cancer patient undergoing chemotherapy. Apparently they weren’t willing to look quite that evil, because they just gave him a citation and took him to his house nearby. By 2:00 or so we were all back outside the church giving interviews and planning our next steps.

We have to go to court tomorrow, where we’ll be pleading not guilty. I’ll keep you posted. Happy Epiphany – at least we have Haydel’s king cake!

docbrite.livejournal.com/654259.html

 

[igator99]

From the blog of Poppy Z. Brite who mentioned one cop was rude.

docbrite.livejournal.com/654259.html

To be fair to the cop, they are not trained to pull law abiding and God loving people out of churches. It is a shame the Diocese is going to close churches that are from my understanding self supporting but just not making enough money. The Diocese really has not been to terribly clear on why these churches must be shutdown.

 

[Seatuck]

There is more to the story I am sure. In the end it is the Bishop who makes these decisions and we have to respect that. That’s not what these protestors were doing. Throwing yourself on a police car? C’mon , what is that going to do besides tick off the cop since you are stupidly putting yourself and them in harms way.

 

[brotherhrolf]

There is a lot more to this story. First, the two churches in question are historic churches. My great-great grandfather was baptized at Our Lady of Good Counsel and that was my family’s church. I attended St. Henry’s as a boy. Neither parish was flooded or sustained major damage during Katrina. The parishes are small but still functioning.

Second, and it would be far too long to get into, the archdiocese has been duplicitous all along during this process which has been going on for two years. The archbishop says one thing one day and then turns around and does the exact opposite. During this closure process, the archbishop led both parishes to believe that if they could prove their financial viability he would not close them. They did and he didn’t.

nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/police_evict_parishioners_from.html

blog.nola.com/updates/2008/04/archdiocese_of_new_orleans_reo.html

Further complicating an already complicated situation, is that the archbishop relented on closing St. Augustine, another historic parish (and a historic black parish) in which parishoners used the exact same tactics.

I have met the archbishop several times when he was bishop here. He may be an able administrator but he lacks the people skills or the cultural skills to recognize how his actions have been perceived. He is not the first archbishop of New Orleans who was an able administrator only. It is indeed possible to be an able administrator and a good sheperd at the same time.

He may have been well within his rights to call in the NOPD, but he would have been better advised to just let things go on as they were going. I, like many Catholics here, are simply disgusted at the way this whole thing has been handled.

 

[igator99]

There is a lot more to this story. First, the two churches in question are historic churches. My great-great grandfather was baptized at Our Lady of Good Counsel and that was my family’s church. I attended St. Henry’s as a boy. Neither parish was flooded or sustained major damage during Katrina. The parishes are small but still functioning.

Second, and it would be far too long to get into, the archdiocese has been duplicitous all along during this process which has been going on for two years. The archbishop says one thing one day and then turns around and does the exact opposite. During this closure process, the archbishop led both parishes to believe that if they could prove their financial viability he would not close them. They did and he didn’t.

nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/police_evict_parishioners_from.html

blog.nola.com/updates/2008/04/archdiocese_of_new_orleans_reo.html

Further complicating an already complicated situation, is that the archbishop relented on closing St. Augustine, another historic parish (and a historic black parish) in which parishoners used the exact same tactics.

I have met the archbishop several times when he was bishop here. He may be an able administrator but he lacks the people skills or the cultural skills to recognize how his actions have been perceived. He is not the first archbishop of New Orleans who was an able administrator only. It is indeed possible to be an able administrator and a good sheperd at the same time.

He may have been well within his rights to call in the NOPD, but he would have been better advised to just let things go on as they were going. I, like many Catholics here, are simply disgusted at the way this whole thing has been handled.

What does financial viability mean to the church? Self sufficient or making a profit? If a church can’t meet its financial obligations because of a lack of parishoners I can see it being shutdown. However if it is because they can send the priest to a more profitable parish then I think it is wrong. I know they have been and will continue to expand parishes on the Nothshore.

 

[brotherhrolf]

What does financial viability mean to the church? Self sufficient or making a profit? If a church can’t meet its financial obligations because of a lack of parishoners I can see it being shutdown. However if it is because they can send the priest to a more profitable parish then I think it is wrong. I know they have been and will continue to expand parishes on the Nothshore.

Both parishes are uptown and proved, I believe, and according to the Times Picayune, that they were self sufficient. Maybe these parishes needed a “hype” like St. Augustine with its Jazz Mass.

We moved from the Channel to west Metairie and Kenner. The archbishop closed St. Lawrence. The archdiocese closed St. Alphonsus to no great outcry. I hear you about the Northshore but if it is a priest shortage that is driving this than bring in priests from India or FSSP priests…and then he involves the NOPD in the whole situation…

 

[drforjc]

What does financial viability mean to the church? Self sufficient or making a profit? If a church can’t meet its financial obligations because of a lack of parishoners I can see it being shutdown. However if it is because they can send the priest to a more profitable parish then I think it is wrong. I know they have been and will continue to expand parishes on the Nothshore.

I was not aware that Catholic churches were in the business of making a profit…

 

[brotherhrolf]

blog.nola.com/jeff_crouere/2009/01/confessions_of_a_concerned_cat.html

And so the backlash begins.

 

[pnewton]

DId anyone do the right thing? Right or wrong the bishop is authoritative in such matters. He should have been listened to. Yet, when he was not, calling in the police for an internal Church matter was a horrible decision. Then again, right or wrong, when the police arrived to enforce the criminal trespassing violation, the people should have left. I think the only one’s with any sense in this affair were the police, and not the people of God. Now it is all in the news. It is with good cause St. Paul condemned dragging one’s fellow Christians before the magistrate. Perhaps the Bishop was sick when they covered that part of the Bible.

Well, he is the leader. Therefore the buck stops on his desk for letting this mess occur.

As far as the protestors are concerned, I think it is important to remember this was not a protest over any religious mattef (thank goodness!). It is more of a historical and societal issue. I hope those that chose to protest this way understand that such a choice comes with a price to be paid. In other words, I hope it was worth it for them.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Pnewton, I don’t know these folks personally but in a very real sense I “know” these folks. These folks, black, Creole, and white have been part of that cultural landscape for generations and they saw what happened at St. Augustine with its Jazz Mass and its outside agitators. I would have fought for St. Augustine without the Jazz Mass simply because it is an historic church in an historic parish and I attended eighth grade in their facility, went to Friday Mass in St. Augustine, attended retreats inside St. Augustine, and was let out of school to watch jazz funerals from St. Augustine. These are HISTORIC churches we are talking about. You hit it right on the head, my friend.

This is the biggest slight to native New Orleanians that I ever have seen. It far exceeds anything that Archbishop Cody did in the 60s…the current archbishop would have done well to have consulted with his predecessor Archbishop Hannan who took over the reins of the archdiocese just weeks after Betsy (and, yes, the Ninth Ward flooded then too except it was an Italian neighborhood). Archbishop Hannan was right out there amongst the folks after Katrina and he’s in his nineties. The current archbishop was sadly locked up with his ledgers.

While I understand and have for all of my life complied with the magesterium, we who “paid, prayed, and obeyed” back in the 60s got run out of town on a rail after Vatican II. I’m not going to sit back and simply submit to the magesterium.

 

[Dale_M]

Judge drops charges against Good Counsel protestors

The judge dropped the charges against two defendants arrested for staging a vigil at Our Lady of Good Counsel to protest the archdiocese’s plan to close the church.

After charges were dropped against Poppy Z. Brite and Hunter Harris by Judge Paul Fens, both vowed they were willing to be rearrested for their cause, but neither Brite nor Harris said they were going to stage vigils inside of Good Counsel again.

wwltv.com/local/stories/wwl010709mlchargesdroppes.26a7f40.html

 

[igator99]

Judge drops charges against Good Counsel protestors

wwltv.com/local/stories/wwl010709mlchargesdroppes.26a7f40.html

They are staging them outside of the church. From TV it looks to be about 20 - 30 people.

 

[jc-servant]

Historical building or not, the bishop is the leader and none of these people had any particular “right” to have a parish where and how they desired it. These people were not being denied the sacraments because no Catholic parishes remained open within a reasonable distance. The important thing should not be the building but rather the sacraments that occur within it. Yes, change can be hard, but it can also be an opportunity for God to pour out His grace for those who are faithful and obedient.

I believe this is another example of Americans who have a sense of entitlement over things that are not necessities of life but rather “wants” or “luxuries.” We have Catholics around the world who are being martyred for their faith. I’m certain that they would love to have any place to freely practice their faith even if there was no historical building or history of a specific community in a certain location. Shame on us for being so spoiled by our lifestyle that we have formed such an unhealthy attachment to Earthly places or things.

Even if the bishop is a flipflopper or whatever, he is still the bishop and he is still making decisions that are within the bounds of his authority. I recall another group of people who believed that they knew better than the bishops and did not owe obedience. They are currently known as Protestants.

 

[Kevin42]

Historical building or not, the bishop is the leader and none of these people had any particular “right” to have a parish where and how they desired it. These people were not being denied the sacraments because no Catholic parishes remained open within a reasonable distance. The important thing should not be the building but rather the sacraments that occur within it. Yes, change can be hard, but it can also be an opportunity for God to pour out His grace for those who are faithful and obedient.

I believe this is another example of Americans who have a sense of entitlement over things that are not necessities of life but rather “wants” or “luxuries.” We have Catholics around the world who are being martyred for their faith. I’m certain that they would love to have any place to freely practice their faith even if there was no historical building or history of a specific community in a certain location. Shame on us for being so spoiled by our lifestyle that we have formed such an unhealthy attachment to Earthly places or things.

Even if the bishop is a flipflopper or whatever, he is still the bishop and he is still making decisions that are within the bounds of his authority. I recall another group of people who believed that they knew better than the bishops and did not owe obedience. They are currently known as Protestants.

I could not agree more. As sad as I would be if the Bishop decided to close either of the parishes I regularly attend, I would humbly submit to his authority as a Bishop and successor of the Apostles that Christ gave His authority to. If I was disgruntled, I would let the bishop know of my troubles and then offer the rest up to Our Lord.

A building is just a building, and things of this world all must pass away sooner or later.

 

[pnewton]

…the current archbishop would have done well to have consulted with his predecessor Archbishop Hannan who took over the reins of the archdiocese just weeks after Betsy.

He sure messed up big time over this. I do not know enough of the issues, but getting the police involved in this matter sure made for the PR disaster. I notice the Judge had enough commons sense to dismiss everything and back out of the family squabble. Will the AB show any capacity for leadership now, or will he solve this problem.

 

[igator99]

Historical building or not, the bishop is the leader and none of these people had any particular “right” to have a parish where and how they desired it. These people were not being denied the sacraments because no Catholic parishes remained open within a reasonable distance. The important thing should not be the building but rather the sacraments that occur within it. Yes, change can be hard, but it can also be an opportunity for God to pour out His grace for those who are faithful and obedient.

I believe this is another example of Americans who have a sense of entitlement over things that are not necessities of life but rather “wants” or “luxuries.” We have Catholics around the world who are being martyred for their faith. I’m certain that they would love to have any place to freely practice their faith even if there was no historical building or history of a specific community in a certain location. Shame on us for being so spoiled by our lifestyle that we have formed such an unhealthy attachment to Earthly places or things.

Even if the bishop is a flipflopper or whatever, he is still the bishop and he is still making decisions that are within the bounds of his authority. I recall another group of people who believed that they knew better than the bishops and did not owe obedience. They are currently known as Protestants.

Should they close down St. Louis Cathedral? I believe if the Church is historical and supporting itself why close them down? On a positive note I do find it inspiring how hard the parishioners are fighting to keep their Church.

 

[brotherhrolf]

nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/church_member_says_deal_might.html

The face of the protestors. Fierce bunch, eh? Maybe they should have gotten some of the outside agitators like the folks who saved St. Augustine from closure.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St.Augustine_Church(New_Orleans

How does one address the double standard? How does one address the facts that the archbishop and the archdiocese have said one thing and then done another? Does the phrase “bait and switch” have no meaning?

My sister is a displaced New Orleanian in Lafayette. She wrote the archdiocese yesterday and had her email returned to her since evidently the archdiocese is not accepting incoming emails. Does that give you any indication of the level of outrage here?

Both of these churches have not been deconsecrated. Was it OK for the archdiocese to authorize the NOPD to smash the three inch thick sacristy door to obtain access to a consecrated apse and thence to the nave? You can see the revulsion on some of the policemen’s faces.

I understand the comments made about submitting to the magesterium and to the archbishop. This is what these folks have done all of their lives as have I. But I can and will write the apostolic nuncio about the deceit and resorting to secular power.

Y’all do know that the archdiocese might sell these churches to protestant evangelical congregations instead of turning them into Irish cultural centers like they did St. Alphonsus? Did the archdiocese build these churches or was it done by the parishoners? Dismiss the historical character of these churches if you will…my ancestors helped build one of them. Are my ancestors any less valid that those of St. Augustine?