New possible obstacle for Catholic-Orthodox unity on the sight

[prodromos]

Sure. Here are just a few. You can also go on to almost any Orthodox forum and find at least a few users who have this exact mindset too.

orthodox.net/articles/against-ecumenism.html

written in 1999

impantokratoros.gr/FA9AF77F.en.aspx

from 2009

orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_anath.aspx

from 1983

In your last post you seemed to be implying that there is presently “a lot of fear”, yet most of the evidence you present is decades old. A few forum members are not a good indication of the climate in the Orthodox Church.

I think you should take care not to misrepresent the Orthodox Church on this forum.

 

[Rohzek]

written in 1999

from 2009

from 1983

In your last post you seemed to be implying that there is presently “a lot of fear”, yet most of the evidence you present is decades old. A few forum members are not a good indication of the climate in the Orthodox Church.

I think you should take care not to misrepresent the Orthodox Church on this forum.

2009 is out of date? I’m sorry, but this surely must be a joke. I’m clearly more informed about the Orthodox Church than you are if you think that any of these feelings are no longer present in Orthodoxy, especially the strong hostility towards any rapprochement with the Latin Church. I’m not going to change what I say solely because you think 2009 is “out of date.”

Tell me, what’s more “out of date?” The documentation from 1999 that reveals the pro-ecumenical factions in both Catholic and Orthodox churches? myriobiblos.gr/texts/documents/northamerican_7.htm

Or is my 2009 listing of anti-ecumenism more “out of date?”

And lastly, there are even actually academic articles documenting the strong anti-ecumenism segment in Orthodoxy. It’s a well-known phenomena. And your denial of its existence not only misrepresents Orthodoxy, but also puts the ecumenical movement itself at risk for ignoring this clear and present danger. See my attachment to this post, an article freely available online if you do a simple google search. I’ll be waiting to hear how a source from 2014 is “out of date.” academia.edu/6143369/Theological_Historical_and_Cultural_reasons_for_anti-ecumenical_movements_in_Eastern_Orthodoxy

The fact of the matter is that there are various factions in both churches. And there is a strong anti-ecumenism feeling in some segments of Eastern Orthodoxy. If you don’t like me pointing out the log in our own eyes, then tough. Get over it.

 

[prodromos]

I said most of what you presented was decades old. I didn’t say all of it was.

 

[KnitNut]

Sure. Here are just a few. You can also go on to almost any Orthodox forum and find at least a few users who have this exact mindset too.

Because they take a harder line, it must be out of “fear”?

(And that whole “Get over it” thing? Really? During the Fast? Maybe there’s something to be said for that harder line after all, if it lends toward avoiding this sort of “nasty-as-I-wanna-be” approach toward others. Lord have mercy.)

 

[SyroMalankara]

The problem with hard lines is that it sometimes catches one’s friends. The Oriental Orthodox may have much in common with Eastern Orthodoxy, but they also have much in common with the Latin Church, as do the Assyrian Churches. In condemning the filioque, would the wording knock the Armenians out as well? What about in condemning Papal jurisdictional claims, would the Syriac Patriarch’s claim over India be affected? The Oriental Orthodox haven’t formally yet accepted the claims of Constantinople to be second to Rome - they were not a part of that Council. Officially, Rome, Alexandria and Antioch are prime in that order, due to their connection to St. Peter.

 

[Peter_J]

2009 is out of date? I’m sorry, but this surely must be a joke. I’m clearly more informed about the Orthodox Church than you are if you think that any of these feelings are no longer present in Orthodoxy, especially the strong hostility towards any rapprochement with the Latin Church. I’m not going to change what I say solely because you think 2009 is “out of date.”

Tell me, what’s more “out of date?” The documentation from 1999 that reveals the pro-ecumenical factions in both Catholic and Orthodox churches? myriobiblos.gr/texts/documents/northamerican_7.htm

Or is my 2009 listing of anti-ecumenism more “out of date?”

And lastly, there are even actually academic articles documenting the strong anti-ecumenism segment in Orthodoxy. It’s a well-known phenomena. And your denial of its existence not only misrepresents Orthodoxy, but also puts the ecumenical movement itself at risk for ignoring this clear and present danger. See my attachment to this post, an article freely available online if you do a simple google search. I’ll be waiting to hear how a source from 2014 is “out of date.” academia.edu/6143369/Theological_Historical_and_Cultural_reasons_for_anti-ecumenical_movements_in_Eastern_Orthodoxy

The fact of the matter is that there are various factions in both churches. And there is a strong anti-ecumenism feeling in some segments of Eastern Orthodoxy. If you don’t like me pointing out the log in our own eyes, then tough. Get over it.

Hi Rohzek. This is probably going to sound bad (at least a bit) so let me preface it by saying that I have no problem with ex-Catholics – heck, out of Catholic posters on this forum, I would say I’m one of the *most *friendly/tolerant toward ex-Catholics. (That might not be saying all that much, given the number of “traditionalist” Catholic posters, but let’s leave that aside.) But having said that, the habitual posting of stuff like ^^ this from an ex-Catholic is, in my opinion, a little too much – even aside from the fact that you have stated that you still receive communion when attending a Catholic mass.

I don’t deny anyone’s right to free speech, of course, or the right of those who want to read your post to do so; but I like to exercise my own right to select for myself whose publications/articles/blogs/posts I subscribe to. (There is a small part of me that pushes me toward reading things just-because-they-are-there, but I have become pretty good at resisting … although come to think of it, nobody asked me anyhow, so I should probably stop talking now and let you move on to whatever you plan to say to your fellow Orthodox next.)

Best,
Peter.

 

[Vaseljen]

I wonder what the rationale is for indirectly taking on these 2 issues in 2016. Is the lack of
proclamation of the councils as ecumenical hurting the Church in some way in 2015? Who would be the beneficiaries of such action next year? How would the Church, or individuals, suffer if those councils are not declared “ecumenical” for another 1000 years? I am trying to ascertain the status quo here, prior to assessing the impact of a proposed change.

“Our Church (Serbian) is going to repeat this question to all the Orthodox Churches. The question about the 8th Council, the St Photius’s, and hesychastic Council. Our Church proposed, and bishop Athanasius historically recorded it. We sent this document to the Church of Constantinople, St Photius’s Council is already accepted as Ecumenical by many. And this coming Council should confirm it simply. There are many reasons for that, but the special reason is the matter of Filioque. And as such, that Council defines Orthodox position towards western Rome’s Church, since ancient times.
And this hesychastic Council held in 1351 is ecumenically accepted along with all it’s teachings. And this hesychastic teachings is of essential importance for not just ecclesiology but for theology in general too. For understanding Holy Trinity and for understanding God’s relation to man. For the matter of God’s boon, for knowing difference between God’s energies and God’s essence. It is of essential importance for Orthodox theology.
So our proposal to the coming Synod is to proclaim these two Councils as Ecumenical officially.”

Metropolitan of Montenegro and Sea-shores Amfilohije, May 26 2015.

 

[Peter_J]

“Our Church (Serbian) is going to repeat this question to all the Orthodox Churches. The question about the 8th Council, the St Photius’s, and hesychastic Council. Our Church proposed, and bishop Athanasius historically recorded it. We sent this document to the Church of Constantinople, St Photius’s Council is already accepted as Ecumenical by many. And this coming Council should confirm it simply. There are many reasons for that, but the special reason is the matter of Filioque. And as such, that Council defines Orthodox position towards western Rome’s Church, since ancient times.
And this hesychastic Council held in 1351 is ecumenically accepted along with all it’s teachings. And this hesychastic teachings is of essential importance for not just ecclesiology but for theology in general too. For understanding Holy Trinity and for understanding God’s relation to man. For the matter of God’s boon, for knowing difference between God’s energies and God’s essence. It is of essential importance for Orthodox theology.
So our proposal to the coming Synod is to proclaim these two Councils as Ecumenical officially.”

Metropolitan of Montenegro and Sea-shores Amfilohije, May 26 2015.

Without trying to sound smarter than the good Metropolitan, I would guess that the end result will be a decision that there isn’t any need to do so – just as I would say that there was no need for 16th century Catholics to add 8 councils to their list of Ecumenical Councils.

 

[Peter_J]

Without trying to sound smarter than the good Metropolitan, I would guess that the end result will be a decision that there isn’t any need to do so – just as I would say that there was no need for 16th century Catholics to add 8 councils to their list of Ecumenical Councils.

P.S. I found this 1436 quote from the Council of Florence, which many now called the seventeenth ecumenical council, I that would like to share for general benefit (even though it is more about Catholics than Orthodox):
… firmly believe and hold the catholic faith, according to the tradition of the apostles, of general councils and of other holy fathers, especially of the eight holy universal councils — namely the first at Nicaea, the second at Constantinople, the third which was the first at Ephesus, the fourth at Chalcedon, the fifth and sixth at Constantinople, the seventh at Nicaea and the eighth at Constantinople — as well as of the general councils at the Lateran, Lyons, Vienne, Constance and Basel

 

[Rohzek]

Hi Rohzek. This is probably going to sound bad (at least a bit) so let me preface it by saying that I have no problem with ex-Catholics – heck, out of Catholic posters on this forum, I would say I’m one of the *most *friendly/tolerant toward ex-Catholics. (That might not be saying all that much, given the number of “traditionalist” Catholic posters, but let’s leave that aside.) But having said that, the habitual posting of stuff like ^^ this from an ex-Catholic is, in my opinion, a little too much – even aside from the fact that you have stated that you still receive communion when attending a Catholic mass.

I don’t deny anyone’s right to free speech, of course, or the right of those who want to read your post to do so; but I like to exercise my own right to select for myself whose publications/articles/blogs/posts I subscribe to. (There is a small part of me that pushes me toward reading things just-because-they-are-there, but I have become pretty good at resisting … although come to think of it, nobody asked me anyhow, so I should probably stop talking now and let you move on to whatever you plan to say to your fellow Orthodox next.)

Best,
Peter.

PJ, first I am not sure what being a formrr Catholic has to do with the matter at hand. Setting that aside, I will now address the other matter. I was asked by pro to substantiate my claim of anti ecumenical factions in Orthodoxy. So I provided those. He then replied dismissing my argument stating that all but two of my sources were old and thus invalid. Usually when someone makes a recency argument as pro had done, they have the common curteousy to at least provide one article that contradicts my view that is more recent. Pro did not do such. Instead, he dismissed my entire case without at least asking, “Rohzek, you said these were just some examples. Could you please provide more recent materials for your argument?” Instead, he implicitly accused me of misrepresenting Orthodoxy, not a light accusaton. While I acknowledge that my respond was heated and rude and in kind, I think one such as yourself should also at least consider what provoked such a response as well. I realize that you make a point of defending eastern christians on these forums, an admirable thing to do. However, as I will try be more charitable in my future posts, I suggest you be more impartial.

Thanks.

Rohzek

 

[Cavaradossi]

There’s a lot of fear in the Orthodox Church among many more conservative and reserved segments that the ecumenism embraced by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople has gone too far. In short, they prefer having big and thick red lines to demarcate Orthodox and Catholics. So having these two councils declared ecumenical can help further their goals in helping to deepen the divide and make it more apparent. Perhaps they would prefer to put it another way, but this is my take on their actions and emphasis.

I know several people who are quite active anti-ecumenists in Greece. I would not describe their attitude as fear. Nobody fears His All Holiness Bartholomew or what he might do. Those who think he is wrong are simply embarrassed by him.

 

[Vaseljen]

You can find in Greece the most anti-ecumenist bishops. Metropolitan of Pereus Seraphim is proclaiming anathema on the Pope of Rome annually, at the Feast of Triumph of Orthodoxy.

 

[Peter_J]

You can find in Greece the most anti-ecumenist bishops.

I’ve become quite skeptical about any sentence about “the most anti-ecumenist” Orthodox. About a dozen years ago I heard many times that it was the ROC, then years later I heard that it was the Jerusalem Patriarchate or the Serbian Patriarchate, now a post saying it’s the Greek Church (and I’ve probably forgotten some).

 

[Vaseljen]

I’ve become quite skeptical about any sentence about “the most anti-ecumenist” Orthodox. About a dozen years ago I heard many times that it was the ROC, then years later I heard that it was the Jerusalem Patriarchate or the Serbian Patriarchate, now a post saying it’s the Greek Church (and I’ve probably forgotten some).

They are present in every Church, probably Ecumenical Patriarchate is the “purest” in that sense. But these bishops from Greece, they sent a big latter to Pope Francis, denying that he is even the bishop of Rome.

 

[Vaseljen]

I’ve become quite skeptical about any sentence about “the most anti-ecumenist” Orthodox. About a dozen years ago I heard many times that it was the ROC, then years later I heard that it was the Jerusalem Patriarchate or the Serbian Patriarchate, now a post saying it’s the Greek Church (and I’ve probably forgotten some).

Here is video of Metropolitan proclaiming anathema on pope Benedict. youtube.com/watch?v=DpGvSS9-kNQ

 

[Rohzek]

I know several people who are quite active anti-ecumenists in Greece. I would not describe their attitude as fear. Nobody fears His All Holiness Bartholomew or what he might do. Those who think he is wrong are simply embarrassed by him.

A poor choice of words on my part. Sorry.

 

[Peter_J]

But these bishops from Greece, they sent a big latter to Pope Francis, denying that he is even the bishop of Rome.

I would guess (I can’t be sure of course) that His Holiness was glad to have them think of him, but remains convinced that he is the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Vaseljen]

I would guess (I can’t be sure of course) that His Holiness was glad to have them think of him, but remains convinced that he is the Bishop of Rome.

I bet he did not even read it, it has over 80 pages.

 

[KathleenGee]

I find it very sad that such an event happens annually in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Pope John Paul II went to Greece and I remember very well how the Greeks refused to forgive the Catholic Church. Unfortunately the Church cannot control all of its Crusaders, especially the rogue ones.

And it is likewise unfortunate that the Byzantines cannot remember how thousands of Latins were killed so many years before within Orthodoxy because of their success in commerce. I never even knew this happened only in the past year.

The Christianity bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit and its gifts, as well as Christ’s counsel to forgive.

 

[Vaseljen]

I find it very sad that such an event happens annually in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Pope John Paul II went to Greece and I remember very well how the Greeks refused to forgive the Catholic Church. Unfortunately the Church cannot control all of its Crusaders, especially the rogue ones.

And it is likewise unfortunate that the Byzantines cannot remember how thousands of Latins were killed so many years before within Orthodoxy because of their success in commerce. I never even knew this happened only in the past year.

The Christianity bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit and its gifts, as well as Christ’s counsel to forgive.

Latin crusaders first started persecuting the Orthodox Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Cypress, Alexandria and established Latins Patriarchates there, when they conquered those lands, while those Orthodox Patriarchates fled to Cypress and Constantinople, then Greeks killed Latin traders in Constantinople, and then Latins sacked Constantinople.